Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Post by Kenneth Porte » Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:00:00







> > > RCS about trashed one archive a week it was abysmal slow - especialy on

> > > lage binary files (Visual Builder Binary, VBB). And one in 4 over night

> > > compiles faild because auf RCS get did not get all the files. And another
> > one
> > > because of user error due to the not existing user interface.

> > > Now we have PVCS and it has paid for itself in about a month with
> > > improved perfomance alone. Not to mention the removed headache of all
> > > the other problems.

> > Gosh, someone that likes PVCS. I think PVCS (v5.2/v5.3) is one of the most
> > abysmal applications that I have come across. I'm currently doing some work
> > at a company where there is virtually open revolt against it - the
> > developers universally hate it. The command line is mostly just about
> > usable (other than all the shell metacharacters that are needed - not good
> > if you're using it on Unix), but the GUI is simply terrible. Maintaining
> > the system (for 10-20 developers) is a headache too.

> > Your experience has obviously been different (this, frankly, amazes me),
> > but I would caution anyone thinking about PVCS to evaluate it _very_
> > thoroughly before taking the plunge and spending a lot of money on it. That
> > means borrow/buy just one copy and try and use it for all your normal
> > revision management procedures. Use it for at least a week and do your
> > builds with it. Then, if you like it, go ahead. My guess is that you won't.

> > > You get what you pay for, and if you don't pay anything...

> > I personally wouldn't pay _anything_ for PVCS.

> > Just my $0.02. The above opinions are not necessarily those of Araxis Ltd.

> > --
> > Daniel Neades
> > Araxis Ltd
> > Need visual file comparison and merging? Visit http://www.araxis.com and
> > get PMdiff.

> Well, we are using PVCS and it's not so bad. However, we don't use the
> GUI, only some commands as GET, PUT, VLOG, VCS. We just use the version
> control part of it, so we do not use it to build our software. We do not
> rebuild our software completely, but only in increments (e. g. we only
> supply changed components to our office branches), so propably our
> business is not typically. At least that way it works ok for us. I
> assume we could do much more sophisticated stuff with it, but we don't
> need it.

> Rudi Ziegaus
> Hypobank Germany

I use PVCS 5.3 in a small shop of 3 programmers and, like you, use just
a few command line utilities. It's been pretty servicable for that. My
complaints have been minor: vdiff should have an option to ignore white
space like Gnu diff. It would be nice to have project-level control that
doesn't require the GUI. I'd also like to see some way to represent new
and deleted files in the revision archives, so that I can recover any
version without excess or missing files.

Currently I kluge the representation of deleted files by maintaining a
second archive directory tree containing my "obsolete" files. Whenever I
obsolete a file, I move its archive and reference copy to the obsolete
tree (a batch file does this) and add a delete entry to a REXX script
that is archived. When other programmers get new revisions from the
archives, they also pick up the REXX script and run it to flush the dead
stuff from their workfiles.

Another problem I ran into was that PVCS adds all EAs to the archive on
check-in, and this needlessly bloats an archive for a REXX script with
its tokenized form (stored in an EA). It's like adding the uncompressed
OBJ file to an archive everytime one checks in a C source. (The archive
for my obsolete script grew to several megabytes before I realized why I
was running out of disk space.) I wrote a post-put event handler to
strip the REXX-specific EAs from a file before check-in.

--
 Ken


 http://www.well.com/user/shiva/

 
 
 

Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Post by Kenneth Porte » Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:00:00






> > > RCS about trashed one archive a week it was abysmal slow - especialy on

> > > lage binary files (Visual Builder Binary, VBB). And one in 4 over night

> > > compiles faild because auf RCS get did not get all the files. And another
> > one
> > > because of user error due to the not existing user interface.

> > > Now we have PVCS and it has paid for itself in about a month with
> > > improved perfomance alone. Not to mention the removed headache of all
> > > the other problems.

> > Gosh, someone that likes PVCS. I think PVCS (v5.2/v5.3) is one of the most
> > abysmal applications that I have come across. I'm currently doing some work
> > at a company where there is virtually open revolt against it - the
> > developers universally hate it. The command line is mostly just about
> > usable (other than all the shell metacharacters that are needed - not good
> > if you're using it on Unix), but the GUI is simply terrible. Maintaining
> > the system (for 10-20 developers) is a headache too.

> > Your experience has obviously been different (this, frankly, amazes me),
> > but I would caution anyone thinking about PVCS to evaluate it _very_
> > thoroughly before taking the plunge and spending a lot of money on it. That
> > means borrow/buy just one copy and try and use it for all your normal
> > revision management procedures. Use it for at least a week and do your
> > builds with it. Then, if you like it, go ahead. My guess is that you won't.

> > > You get what you pay for, and if you don't pay anything...

> > I personally wouldn't pay _anything_ for PVCS.

> > Just my $0.02. The above opinions are not necessarily those of Araxis Ltd.

> > --
> > Daniel Neades
> > Araxis Ltd
> > Need visual file comparison and merging? Visit http://www.araxis.com and
> > get PMdiff.

> Well, we are using PVCS and it's not so bad. However, we don't use the
> GUI, only some commands as GET, PUT, VLOG, VCS. We just use the version
> control part of it, so we do not use it to build our software. We do not
> rebuild our software completely, but only in increments (e. g. we only
> supply changed components to our office branches), so propably our
> business is not typically. At least that way it works ok for us. I
> assume we could do much more sophisticated stuff with it, but we don't
> need it.

> Rudi Ziegaus
> Hypobank Germany

I use PVCS 5.3 in a small shop of 3 programmers and, like you, use just
a few command line utilities. It's been pretty servicable for that. My
complaints have been minor: vdiff should have an option to ignore white
space like Gnu diff. It would be nice to have project-level control that
doesn't require the GUI. I'd also like to see some way to represent new
and deleted files in the revision archives, so that I can recover any
version without excess or missing files.

Currently I kluge the representation of deleted files by maintaining a
second archive directory tree containing my "obsolete" files. Whenever I
obsolete a file, I move its archive and reference copy to the obsolete
tree (a batch file does this) and add a delete entry to a REXX script
that is archived. When other programmers get new revisions from the
archives, they also pick up the REXX script and run it to flush the dead
stuff from their workfiles.

Another problem I ran into was that PVCS adds all EAs to the archive on
check-in, and this needlessly bloats an archive for a REXX script with
its tokenized form (stored in an EA). It's like adding the uncompressed
OBJ file to an archive everytime one checks in a C source. (The archive
for my obsolete script grew to several megabytes before I realized why I
was running out of disk space.) I wrote a post-put event handler to
strip the REXX-specific EAs from a file before check-in.

--
 Ken


 http://www.well.com/user/shiva/

 
 
 

Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Post by Lisa » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00








> > > > RCS about trashed one archive a week it was abysmal slow -
especialy on

> > > > lage binary files (Visual Builder Binary, VBB). And one in 4 over
night

> > > > compiles faild because auf RCS get did not get all the files. And
another
> > > one
> > > > because of user error due to the not existing user interface.

> > > > Now we have PVCS and it has paid for itself in about a month with
> > > > improved perfomance alone. Not to mention the removed headache of
all
> > > > the other problems.

> > > Gosh, someone that likes PVCS. I think PVCS (v5.2/v5.3) is one of the
most
> > > abysmal applications that I have come across. I'm currently doing
some work
> > > at a company where there is virtually open revolt against it - the
> > > developers universally hate it. The command line is mostly just about
> > > usable (other than all the shell metacharacters that are needed - not
good
> > > if you're using it on Unix), but the GUI is simply terrible.
Maintaining
> > > the system (for 10-20 developers) is a headache too.

> > > Your experience has obviously been different (this, frankly, amazes
me),
> > > but I would caution anyone thinking about PVCS to evaluate it _very_
> > > thoroughly before taking the plunge and spending a lot of money on
it. That
> > > means borrow/buy just one copy and try and use it for all your normal
> > > revision management procedures. Use it for at least a week and do
your
> > > builds with it. Then, if you like it, go ahead. My guess is that you
won't.

> > > > You get what you pay for, and if you don't pay anything...

> > > I personally wouldn't pay _anything_ for PVCS.

> > > Just my $0.02. The above opinions are not necessarily those of Araxis
Ltd.

> > > --
> > > Daniel Neades
> > > Araxis Ltd
> > > Need visual file comparison and merging? Visit http://www.araxis.com
and
> > > get PMdiff.

> > Well, we are using PVCS and it's not so bad. However, we don't use the
> > GUI, only some commands as GET, PUT, VLOG, VCS. We just use the version
> > control part of it, so we do not use it to build our software. We do
not
> > rebuild our software completely, but only in increments (e. g. we only
> > supply changed components to our office branches), so propably our
> > business is not typically. At least that way it works ok for us. I
> > assume we could do much more sophisticated stuff with it, but we don't
> > need it.

> > Rudi Ziegaus
> > Hypobank Germany

> I use PVCS 5.3 in a small shop of 3 programmers and, like you, use just
> a few command line utilities. It's been pretty servicable for that. My
> complaints have been minor: vdiff should have an option to ignore white
> space like Gnu diff. It would be nice to have project-level control that
> doesn't require the GUI. I'd also like to see some way to represent new
> and deleted files in the revision archives, so that I can recover any
> version without excess or missing files.

> Currently I kluge the representation of deleted files by maintaining a
> second archive directory tree containing my "obsolete" files. Whenever I
> obsolete a file, I move its archive and reference copy to the obsolete
> tree (a batch file does this) and add a delete entry to a REXX script
> that is archived. When other programmers get new revisions from the
> archives, they also pick up the REXX script and run it to flush the dead
> stuff from their workfiles.

> Another problem I ran into was that PVCS adds all EAs to the archive on
> check-in, and this needlessly bloats an archive for a REXX script with
> its tokenized form (stored in an EA). It's like adding the uncompressed
> OBJ file to an archive everytime one checks in a C source. (The archive
> for my obsolete script grew to several megabytes before I realized why I
> was running out of disk space.) I wrote a post-put event handler to
> strip the REXX-specific EAs from a file before check-in.

> --
>  Ken


>  http://www.well.com/user/shiva/

It wouldn't be ethical for me to tell you what MY opinion on PVCS is, but
trying to use it encouraged us to develop our own application. take a look
at our site.

--
Lisa - Marketing Manager
SEA  Software Ever After
=======================================
Quality software is just the beginning...
http:/www.home.aone.net.au/sea

 
 
 

Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Post by J.. » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00


Lisa, speaking of ethics, isn't using a non-commerical site to try to
sell your software unehtical, or at least in very poor taste?








>> > > > RCS about trashed one archive a week it was abysmal slow -
>especialy on

>> > > > lage binary files (Visual Builder Binary, VBB). And one in 4 over
>night

>> > > > compiles faild because auf RCS get did not get all the files. And
>another
>> > > one
>> > > > because of user error due to the not existing user interface.

>> > > > Now we have PVCS and it has paid for itself in about a month with
>> > > > improved perfomance alone. Not to mention the removed headache of
>all
>> > > > the other problems.

>> > > Gosh, someone that likes PVCS. I think PVCS (v5.2/v5.3) is one of the
>most
>> > > abysmal applications that I have come across. I'm currently doing
>some work
>> > > at a company where there is virtually open revolt against it - the
>> > > developers universally hate it. The command line is mostly just about
>> > > usable (other than all the shell metacharacters that are needed - not
>good
>> > > if you're using it on Unix), but the GUI is simply terrible.
>Maintaining
>> > > the system (for 10-20 developers) is a headache too.

>> > > Your experience has obviously been different (this, frankly, amazes
>me),
>> > > but I would caution anyone thinking about PVCS to evaluate it _very_
>> > > thoroughly before taking the plunge and spending a lot of money on
>it. That
>> > > means borrow/buy just one copy and try and use it for all your normal
>> > > revision management procedures. Use it for at least a week and do
>your
>> > > builds with it. Then, if you like it, go ahead. My guess is that you
>won't.

>> > > > You get what you pay for, and if you don't pay anything...

>> > > I personally wouldn't pay _anything_ for PVCS.

>> > > Just my $0.02. The above opinions are not necessarily those of Araxis
>Ltd.

>> > > --
>> > > Daniel Neades
>> > > Araxis Ltd
>> > > Need visual file comparison and merging? Visit http://www.araxis.com
>and
>> > > get PMdiff.

>> > Well, we are using PVCS and it's not so bad. However, we don't use the
>> > GUI, only some commands as GET, PUT, VLOG, VCS. We just use the version
>> > control part of it, so we do not use it to build our software. We do
>not
>> > rebuild our software completely, but only in increments (e. g. we only
>> > supply changed components to our office branches), so propably our
>> > business is not typically. At least that way it works ok for us. I
>> > assume we could do much more sophisticated stuff with it, but we don't
>> > need it.

>> > Rudi Ziegaus
>> > Hypobank Germany

>> I use PVCS 5.3 in a small shop of 3 programmers and, like you, use just
>> a few command line utilities. It's been pretty servicable for that. My
>> complaints have been minor: vdiff should have an option to ignore white
>> space like Gnu diff. It would be nice to have project-level control that
>> doesn't require the GUI. I'd also like to see some way to represent new
>> and deleted files in the revision archives, so that I can recover any
>> version without excess or missing files.

>> Currently I kluge the representation of deleted files by maintaining a
>> second archive directory tree containing my "obsolete" files. Whenever I
>> obsolete a file, I move its archive and reference copy to the obsolete
>> tree (a batch file does this) and add a delete entry to a REXX script
>> that is archived. When other programmers get new revisions from the
>> archives, they also pick up the REXX script and run it to flush the dead
>> stuff from their workfiles.

>> Another problem I ran into was that PVCS adds all EAs to the archive on
>> check-in, and this needlessly bloats an archive for a REXX script with
>> its tokenized form (stored in an EA). It's like adding the uncompressed
>> OBJ file to an archive everytime one checks in a C source. (The archive
>> for my obsolete script grew to several megabytes before I realized why I
>> was running out of disk space.) I wrote a post-put event handler to
>> strip the REXX-specific EAs from a file before check-in.

>> --
>>  Ken


>>  http://www.well.com/user/shiva/

>It wouldn't be ethical for me to tell you what MY opinion on PVCS is, but
>trying to use it encouraged us to develop our own application. take a look
>at our site.

>--
>Lisa - Marketing Manager
>SEA  Software Ever After
>=======================================
>Quality software is just the beginning...
>http:/www.home.aone.net.au/sea

 
 
 

Warp, RCS, and PVCS (was Version control utilities?)

Post by Kenneth Porte » Wed, 30 Jul 1997 04:00:00



> Lisa, speaking of ethics, isn't using a non-commerical site to try to
> sell your software unethical, or at least in very poor taste?


> >> [Huge multiply-nested quote about PVCS deleted - KAP]

> >It wouldn't be ethical for me to tell you what MY opinion on PVCS is, but
> >trying to use it encouraged us to develop our own application. take a look
> >at our site.

> >--
> >Lisa - Marketing Manager
> >SEA  Software Ever After
> >=======================================
> >Quality software is just the beginning...
> >http:/www.home.aone.net.au/sea

That would depend on the site's policies. On the other hand, quoting the
huge PVCS discussion while plugging one's alternative, with no concrete
comments about the competing products discussed, is rather unfriendly to
those of us who are bandwidth-challenged.

(I only inserted the huge quote because I was adding
comp.software.config-mgmt to the newsgroup header and wanted readers
there to understand the context of a discussion started in
comp.os.os2.programmer.tools. BTW, sorry about the multiple posts.
Netscape/2 kept telling me that it had failed to post my message. I've
since canceled the duplicates.)

Lisa *should* tell us her opinion of PVCS and RCS so that we can fairly
evaluate her own product's ability to address those issues. Hearing
Brand X and Brand Y critique each other is valuable to users who must
choose between them.

--
 Ken


 http://www.well.com/user/shiva/

 
 
 

1. CA - San Francisco - SOURCE/VERSION CONTROL CONSULTANT / C, SUN UNIX, PERL, VERSION CONTROL

POSITION ID         960660
DATE :              09/19/96

POSITION TITLE     :   SOURCE/VERSION CONTROL CONSULT.
SKILLS REQUIREMENTS:   UNIX, VERSION CONTROL, C

LOCATION: SAN FRANCISCO            START DATE: ASAP
PAY RATE: MARKET RATE W2/INC OK    LENGTH: 4 MOS.

COMMENTS: Need a consultant to provide in-house
          expertise in version/source control tools.
          Perform analysis, configuration and s/w
          installs for development teams on both UNIX
          and PC platforms.  Develop and maintain
          migration scripts, port them across multiple
          platforms.  Provide 1st-line support.

          Write problem and enhancement reports,
          interact with vendors on software problems.
          Gather requirements for new tools.  Customize
          the selected tools and develop new pieces
          using API provide to automate the change
          process in the distributed environment.

          SKILLS:
          -    3+ yrs experience with UNIX, MS DOS &
               Windows (NT is a plus).
          -    In-depth understanding of client server
               architecture
          -    Solid RDBMS background, SQL knowledge
          -    3GL and 4GL programming expertise
          -    Proficiency in creating scripts in UNIX
               and batch files for DOS and NT.
          -    Experience with Source / Version control
               tools (PVCS preferred).
          -    Problem and crisis management expertise
          -    Effective communication skills both
               verbal and written
          -    Demonstrated abilities to work with a
               team.

CONTACT:

ARIE ASSOCIATES                  Pam Brown
2402 Larkin St.                  Tel: (415) 928-5633
San Francisco, CA  94109-1726    Fax: (415) 292-6588


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