Very Computer

 I bought a small 470 square foot condo with no porch
for $53,000 a few years ago. My mortgage payment is
$400/month, condo fee is $135/month, I bought a new tundra
truck and my car payments are $161/month. So I am not
as financialy strapped as some people. I might have to take a job
for less pay at some point if the economy doesn't get better.
Are there other related fields I should consider or think about ?

 I have some other questions:

 Anyone been on rentacoder.com ? I take it people in india do
alot of those jobs. They say indian programmers work for 1/3 or 1/2
as much, but is that for the ones that come to live and work in the
USA ?
if they live in India do they work for even less than that ? I'm a
good programmer and can write efficient and smart code and doing some
odd jobs on something like rentacoder.com might even
be eductaional if it's a wide variety of work. It might not sustain
me indefinitely, but I'm wondering how cheap those jobs are, are they
like %10 of what an American programmer would want to be paid or
something
that low ?

 What is the situation like in India. Is it possible that as demand
for
Indian programmers increases they will start to want more money ?
I read an article that the Indian gov is a bit in debt and that could
effect training of new programmers as the gov pays for alot of it.
There is also political instability and so on. What might I expect
could or is likely to happen in this regard ? For awhile japan was
doing quite well, then I guess they had some problems, perhaps that
was different. I haven't followed these things, but if it's going to
seriously effect me I'd like to know alot more about what's going on.
Obviously our
gov and corporations are part of the picture as well and people are
not
happy with the laws. Are there any organized groups against the H1-b
program that have any voice or politcal activism ?

First, if you haven't been laid off you're lucky.  The reason being
that that the staggering unemployment rate among IT professionals has
caused a deflationary spiral in wages and the availability of talent.
Those who are most complacent about their positions may been those
employed in government.  In the commercial world, no such security
exists no matter how competent you may be.

The Boston area, Connecticut, San Francisco, New York, and many of the
former second-tier, high-tech centers are already in an employment
melt-down stage.  So, yes, you should be concerned.

The phenomenon we're witnessing is deliberate and the many politicians
are reinforcing the carnage by claiming that globalization trends are
irreversible and so on.  Adding to this chorus of disinformation are
groups of absolutist, free-traders, extreme libertarians, windfall
beneficiaries, and others guided or misguided into thinking this is a
good thing.

I say this is deliberate because the current US administration refuses
to acknowledge the problem and their economic advisors continue to
ignore and obfuscate the obvious.  Compounding this exercise in
government hijinx is the fact that computer scientists generally have
zero political presence nor is our profession particularly well-known
for its backbone.

"Northeastern University economist Paul Harrington, who co-authored a
recent study of the recession with analyst Sean Toppel.  "This thing
has been highly concentrated."

In essence, the economy has managed to deposit most of its troubles on
a few, widely dispersed groups and places -- many of them high- tech
and telecom centers -- leaving the rest of the nation relatively
unscathed." from a LA Times article entitled "Another View of Economy
Focuses on Points of Pain" by Peter G. Gosselin, December 20 2002.

That was then, this is now.  That quaint little recession in our
*point of pain* has blossomed into a full-blown deflationary
black-hole within our economic sector.  The *only* major presidential
candidate to have addressed this issue before it festered has been
John Kerry although both Howard Deane, John Kucinich, and a few others
are empathetic ears.

This is to say that your concern is our mutual concern.

<snip>

Quote:

>  I have some other questions:

>  They say indian programmers work for 1/3 or 1/2
> as much, but is that for the ones that come to live and work in the
> USA ?

For the first time in American history, the use of H-1B visas has
introduced a parasitic and predatory wave of opportunistic
*immigration* whose purpose is not to better our country but to
ransack it.  It is the fault of of our government and any citizen who
remains ignorant of the ramifications of this problem.

The ability of this country to continue operating outside of economic
crisis is a narrowing window of opportunity to rectify the problem.
If it festers we, as a nation, are compromised for the foreseeable
future.

<snip>

Quote:

>  What is the situation like in India.

Quote:> Obviously our
> gov and corporations are part of the picture as well and people are
> not happy with the laws.

Quote:> Are there any organized groups against the H1-b
> program that have any voice or politcal activism ?

Quote:> That was then, this is now.  That quaint little recession in our
> *point of pain* has blossomed into a full-blown deflationary
> black-hole within our economic sector.  The *only* major presidential
> candidate to have addressed this issue before it festered has been
> John Kerry although both Howard Deane, John Kucinich, and a few others
> are empathetic ears.

Quote:

>> They say indian programmers work for 1/3 or 1/2
>> as much, but is that for the ones that come to live and work in the
>> USA ?

> The H-1B issue is not exclusive to Indians nor is the issue concerned
> with traditional immigration of individuals attempting to escape dire
> circumstances.

> For the first time in American history, the use of H-1B visas has
> introduced a parasitic and predatory wave of opportunistic
> *immigration* whose purpose is not to better our country but to
> ransack it.  It is the fault of of our government and any citizen who
> remains ignorant of the ramifications of this problem.

While I'm sure there were companies who did not follow INS regs closely,
over the past 6 years I've worked with 3 companies where each was extremely
vigilant that H1-B visa holders were treated fairly and the company
complied with INS regulations.
There were some restrictions to H1-B that lead to abuse: since the visa was
linked to the sponsoring employer (at first), visa holders risked losing
status if they left or lost their jobs. Thus, an employee working for a
sucky company or manager often felt trapped, and endured sitations that
motivated other employees to leave.

Quote:> The ability of this country to continue operating outside of economic
> crisis is a narrowing window of opportunity to rectify the problem. If it
> festers we, as a nation, are compromised for the foreseeable
> future.

huh?

Quote:> As a political interest group,  computer scientists are powerless in
> America.  The current cozy coupling of government and business working
> in concert despite the wishes of the people occurred in Italy in the
> late 1930's and is known as Facism.  It didn't turn out so well.  The
> jury is still out on this experiment.

Quote:>> Are there any organized groups against the H1-b
>> program that have any voice or politcal activism ?

> Yes.  Search 'H-1b' and you'll find many though all may be too little,
> too late.

--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Quote:>the "deflationary black-hole within our economic sector" is the market's
>pendulum swinging back. Salaries in I/T and MIS fields have typically been
>significantly higher than comparable professionals in other fields.

In general, engineering and IT salaries have not kept up with
inflation since the 1970s, and now they're diving down below that
declining line.  Ich.

Quote:>Perhaps folks should wake up: the main threat to US software jobs isn't H1-
>B visa, but international outsourcing. Protectionary laws won't help us.
>Only our ability to compete with quality and value on the world market will
>keep jobs in the US.

J.

Quote:> Salaries in I/T and MIS fields have typically been
> significantly higher than comparable professionals in other fields.

But your statement implies that IT should be paid comparable to whom?
A teacher in CT with experience makes approx. 60K with summers off and
a lifetime of benefits, a software engineer with similar years makes
$70-80K only sometimes approaching the benefit packages given a
teacher.  Are you saying the software engineer is making too much?

<snip> it is only natural

Quote:> for salaraies to adjust downwards. A few years ago someone with a Comp Sci
> degree could command 50--75% more than a new grad with an acounting degree.
> Now they can't. It's not a question of fairness or right-and-wrong, it's
> just the way the market works.

It is not *natural*.  Accountants do not create new wealth nor do they
invent or reinvent anything more than bureacracy.

Globalization is not only the essence of the question of fairness, it
is a question of whether or not the concept of nations is meaningful.
If you no longer have the means to support your family you will learn
this lesson first hand.

<snip>

Quote:> Relevent to this discussion, another myth was that H-1B visa holders could
> be underpaid. On the contrary, we had to publicly post the position and
> salary grade information and be able to demonstrate to the INS that the H-
> 1B holder was payed comparable to employees of similar grade.

On many contracting assignments, I had the conversation with H-1B
holders as to pay.  I remember $15/hr., $20/hr., and other low figures
as being the answer I received back during the best of times.  This
was clearly one-half to one-third of what an American citizen was
making.

A more important question is if you paid full price to a contract
agency, where did the windfall profit go?  You see, in America, if the
oil companies try to *gouge* at the pumps, the government says, "Wait
a minute! Not fair."

Quote:

> While I'm sure there were companies who did not follow INS regs closely,
> over the past 6 years I've worked with 3 companies where each was extremely
> vigilant that H1-B visa holders were treated fairly and the company
> complied with INS regulations.

I recently had a conversation with a social worker who overheard a
conversation about this very subject that I was explaining to a
colleague.  She had no idea that H-1Bs were an issue.  She interjected
that she in fact just hired an H-1B because *no American can afford to
take that job*.

Quote:> There were some restrictions to H1-B that lead to abuse: since the visa was
> linked to the sponsoring employer (at first), visa holders risked losing
> status if they left or lost their jobs. Thus, an employee working for a
> sucky company or manager often felt trapped, and endured sitations that
> motivated other employees to leave.

Quote:

> > The ability of this country to continue operating outside of economic
> > crisis is a narrowing window of opportunity to rectify the problem. If it
> > festers we, as a nation, are compromised for the foreseeable
> > future.
> [...]

> huh?

Secondly, America, by eliminating this middle-class sector overnight,
both the country and the federal states are rapidly going bankrupt.
This bumbling administration continues to manage *the economy* as a
monolithic phenonmenon and fails to recognize the points-of-pain
reality that afflicts it.

So all of the knee-jerk Republocrats sitting in the rancid center of
the political spectrum argue about adjusting interest rates and
cutting taxes, neither of which can help.

see: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030707&s=scheiber070703

In particular, notice this sentence:

"Even more alarming, according to a report ordered by former Treasury
Secretary Paul O'Neill but subsequently suppressed by the Bush
administration, is that the current value of the gap between all of
the government's future liabilities and its future revenue is $44
trillion."

This figure says *nothing* about how bad the state economies will
become.  Nor do any of these simple-minded, centrist arguments ever
tackle the issue of globalization or what Americans will do for work.

Quote:

> > As a political interest group,  computer scientists are powerless in
> > America.  The current cozy coupling of government and business working
> > in concert despite the wishes of the people occurred in Italy in the
> > late 1930's and is known as Facism.  It didn't turn out so well.  The
> > jury is still out on this experiment.

> US Computer Scientists each have one vote, like any other citizen. Many
> high-tech companies have Political Action Committees, so we can play the
> game along with anyone else...

Quote:

> >> Are there any organized groups against the H1-b
> >> program that have any voice or politcal activism ?

> > Yes.  Search 'H-1b' and you'll find many though all may be too little,
> > too late.

> Perhaps folks should wake up: the main threat to US software jobs isn't H1-
> B visa, but international outsourcing. Protectionary laws won't help us.
> Only our ability to compete with quality and value on the world market will
> keep jobs in the US.

For a while, I attempted to create a job shop of my own so I received
all kinds of resumes.  In examining the qualifications of foreign
applicants the experience was so laughably thin it was silly.

It consisted of a university degree from a third-rate university, a
year or two working at an Indian or Russian or Chinese utility company
pushing data and they're here ready to lecture American engineers on
how to do it.  When was the last time any of you envied the
efficiencies of third world utility companies?

Please stop insulting Americans with the issue of quality.

Quote:>Please stop insulting Americans with the issue of quality.

Let's say that 99% of the claims of high standards of quality by
outsource shops are just bogus advertising claims.  The question is
whether their actual quality is higher or lower than domestic
development shops.  Now, we all know that there are a whole lot of
low-quality domestic shops, however you choose to define "quality".
The bar is really low on this hurdle.

I suspect that part of the reason that companies are so eager to
outsource to India, is that the figure they can hardly do worse than
they have in the past, and so, why not go for the low bid?

So, the quality issue is not really related to the shops, but to the
customer -- just how much *can they put up with?  When will they
learn to choose the most cost-effective, choosing higher quality at
higher short-term cost, because it offers lower long-term cost?  When,
oh, when?????

(There is a whole question as to why U.S. companies want to outsource
at all beyond their walls, but that's another topic -- they have long
outsourced development domestically anyway)

J.

The globalization problem is even more complex.  Unless America is
willing to suddenly compete as a third-world nation with the economies
of third-world labor, business practice, and twisted dealings then we
had better take a long look into that abyss and think a few more
seconds before we leap.

Quote:

> So, the quality issue is not really related to the shops, but to the
> customer -- just how much *can they put up with?  

<snip>

I don't know what libertarians you follow, but most prefer government to
keep a laissez-faire stance.  Haven't you been reading the Policy Briefings
from the Cato Institute?

What do you do? what do you recommend we do?

so, how many Americans did you hire, and how did they compare to the
foreign applicants?

raf
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

I think this is exagerrated exponentially.  Most professionals I know
received no windfall raises.  As a contractor my rates remained
consistently low under Bush I, higher under Clinton, and pre-historic
under Bush II.

Did you receive a windfall raise?  Did you give out great big raises
to your IT staff?

<snip>

He was asked "how as a consumer, the consumer could help the economy"
- he never answered the question.  However, when speaking about the
rich he said, "more power to 'em" (sic) - expressing not even the
slightest hint of irony.

But yes, they love laissez-faire for you and me and hate talk-shows.
All this laissez-faire will help other economies grow regardless of
natural resources, culture, or government <cough> 'preference'.

This assymetry of distribution of legitimate government resources
ensures a hawkish government that redistributes government funding
(civilian wealth) to defence contractors, military elements, and
government-entitled veterans.

The export of American jobs, the abandonment of American labor, and
the duplicity of the Bush administration and corporate stakeholders to
orchestrate this theft remains a festering issue.

<snip>

INS regulations do not dictate salary requirements so why do you
continue to assert that there's some kind of regulation that you
adhere to when you clearly bottom-feed in hiring the H-1B?

Or are you saying that you hire the H-1B because you want to pay them
what their labor is worth in the open *American* market (you know,
tax-paying, family-raising, mortgage-bound, black, white, Indian,
Chinese, Russian, Polish, Irish, whoever - AMERICAN workers - maybe
you're one).

<snip>

Why don't you stop playing games and be honest?

How about your H-1B employee? If he's smarter than you are you afraid
he/she'll take your job.  Why not?

<snip>

<snip>

Cutting state spending has raised the unemployment, cut services, and
released prisoners too expensive to keep penned in.  Our economy
remains jobless.

Federal spending on guns has increased.  Foreign outsourcers are
bidding for a piece of that action.

read more »

If a BS compsci degree from a good school can't pull $50k, it is going
to attract no good students at all.  That means U.S. programmer will
all be trade tech grads, and, not to say they don't turn out some very
good developers, overall that will be a big step down, and only
strengthen the outsourcing trend.

(the problem was that any schmuck with no experience or bad experience
could pull $50k++ during the bubble, and those guys were probably
worth nothing, but you are right, that now even compsci grads are
getting caught in the downdraft, and that is precisely the problem)

Joshua Stern

So what gives?

The answer was, and still is, that the economy adjusts by creating new
industries and services in which this country has or will have a lead.
(<sidetrack>That is, if artificial constraints don't stand in its way. For
example, the US could easily create and be a leader in an a renewable energy
market that is worth billions. Instead we keep Oil prices artificially low
by starting wars and burying our heads in the sand about serious
environmental problems like global warming</sidetrack>). Those agricultural,
garment and cheap electronics jobs went overseas for a very simple reason:
It was no longer economically feasible for them to stay in the US. Or put
another way, if those jobs had stayed, you and I would not have the standard
of living that we have today.

The same goes for the software industry today. Software developers in this
country will move onto jobs that require more human skills, that require
better knowledge and better tools. The numerous cowboy coders in this field
will go (and not a minute too soon) to be replaced with professionals that
really engineer software rather than hacking it.

The fact is that both India/China/<substitute country du jour> and the US
will benefit. Those countries by their rsining standard of living will be
able to afford more American made products (look at the fast rising car and
cellphone markets in both India and China). In the meantime,
Indian/Chinese/etc programmers have and will perform just as well as any
American programmer for a lot less. Thats the way the market moves.

cheers
-srinivas

read more »

J.

What defines what we are is America first.  What defines what we do in
many cases for professionals (by definition) is their job.

Corporations are legally defined and treated as citizen entities here.
 The American military spends millions of tax-payer dollars looking
for the remains of dead soldiers on foreign soils.

AND YET TODAY, our government continues its multiplicity in importing
labor that undermines already distressed economic sectors, allows
corporate citizens the right to undermine the human citizenry, allows
corporate interests to avoid paying taxes by encouraging overseas and
suspicious investment, and so on.

It is becoming obvious to evenn the most-dimwitted politician (and
there are many) that the technology required to satisfy even our
national defense needs are no longer domestically available.

It's about a lot more than just jobs.

Quote:> But speaking on a macroeconomic scale, how
> is this any different from the past when millions of agricultural jobs
> "disappeared" (turn of the century), thousands of garment factory jobs
> "disappeared" ('60s), thousands of cheap electronics assembly jobs
> "disappeared" (70's)? Then as now, people wailed and moaned about the giant
> whooshing sound of jobs going overseas. In fact, nothing of the sort
> happened.

A French author recently wrote a column that makes the claim that with
the invasion and occupation of Iraq, America is now a Middle East
country and is at the beginning of learning what that means.

<snip>

Quote:> The same goes for the software industry today. Software developers in this
> country will move onto jobs that require more human skills, that require
> better knowledge and better tools. The numerous cowboy coders in this field
> will go (and not a minute too soon) to be replaced with professionals that
> really engineer software rather than hacking it.

What history books do you read?

Quote:

> The fact is that both India/China/<substitute country du jour> and the US
> will benefit. Those countries by their rsining standard of living will be
> able to afford more American made products (look at the fast rising car and
> cellphone markets in both India and China).

Quote:> In the meantime,
> Indian/Chinese/etc programmers have and will perform just as well as any
> American programmer for a lot less. Thats the way the market moves.

<snip>

 k> America's secret weapon no longer exists
 k> thanks to Bush.  That is the clause in the constitution that other
 k> presidents read and understood - avoid international entanglements.

What clause is that?  One of the Founding Fathers (GW, methinks, or
maybe TJ) said something about pursuing friendship and trade with all
nations and entangling alliances with none, but to the best of my
recollection, there's nothing about it in the Constitution.  The closest
I recall is the individual states are forbidden to do some nation-like
things, like mint coinage, make treaties with foreign powers, etc.  But
I could be wrong (and hope I am).

It's a great idea, it's just not the law -- and hasn't been the custom,
either, ever since Monroe and his Doctrine, never mind all the later
actual alliances, meddlings, etc.  (Not that being the law would mean
the government would obey it.  Insert rant regarding your favorite part
of the Bill of Rights here.)

But we digress.

--
David J. Aronson, Unemployed Software Engineer in the Washington DC area
See http://destined.to/program/ for online resume and other information.