ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Lowell Lindstro » Tue, 05 Oct 1999 04:00:00



What:  XP Training provided by Object Mentor, Inc.
When:  December 6-10, 1999
Where:  Deerfield, IL  (Chicago-suburb)
Instructors:  Kent Beck, Martin Fowler, Robert Martin, and others
Course size will be limited, so register early!

For details and registration visit http://www.objectmentor.com, send e-mail

Extreme Programming (XP) has sparked much interest and debate in the
software development community.  The practices of XP challenge many
established norms of software development.  The success stories and common
sense approach make XP a compelling approach to software development which
will have a profound impact on the software development community in the
years to come.

Through this course, students will experience a week of eXtreme Programming.
During the days, an application will be developed in Java using the
practices of XP.  Brief lecture and mentoring will be provided by Kent Beck,
Martin Fowler, Robert Martin, and others.  Evenings will feature talks on
topics related to XP.  Other speakers will include notable contributors to
the XP and Refactoring communities.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by El » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00


#Extreme Programming (XP) has sparked much interest and debate in the
#software development community.  The practices of XP challenge many
#established norms of software development.

There's nothing new about hacking and taking piece meal approach.

#The success stories

The only solid success story I've read about is Chrysler.  The other alleged
success were on subsystems and some very small systems.

#sense approach make XP a compelling approach to software development which
#will have a profound impact on the software development community in the
#years to come.
#
#Through this course, students will experience a week of eXtreme Programming.

You've got people teaching this thing, as experts, who only 2 months ago were
saying they wanted to study XP further.  It seems like names are being used to
make a profit and in an opportunistic way.

Elliott
--
   :=***=:  Objective  *  Holistic  *  Overall pre-code Modelling  :=***=:
                      Hallmarks of the best SW Engineering
   study Craftite vs. Full Blown OO:  http://www.access.digex.net/~ell
copyright 1999 Elliott. exclusive of others' writing. may be copied freely
                 only in comp., phil., sci. usenet & bitnet & otug.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Patrick Loga » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00


: You've got people teaching this thing, as experts, who only 2 months
: ago were saying they wanted to study XP further.  It seems like
: names are being used to make a profit and in an opportunistic way.

Sigh. And how long have you been in America? 8*)

Actually I am not that cynical. From what I know of the three
instructors they are more level headed than that. But I agree with the
underlying advice that more experience with XP per se is necessary.

Maybe this kind of boot camp will be useful in gaining *more*
experience with XP. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and see
what the attendees have to say afterward.

--

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by akmal b chaudhr » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00





> : You've got people teaching this thing, as experts, who only 2 months
> : ago were saying they wanted to study XP further.  It seems like
> : names are being used to make a profit and in an opportunistic way.

> Sigh. And how long have you been in America? 8*)

> Actually I am not that cynical. From what I know of the three
> instructors they are more level headed than that. But I agree with the
> underlying advice that more experience with XP per se is necessary.

I've known Martin Fowler at a professional level for a number of years
and would agree with you.

> Maybe this kind of boot camp will be useful in gaining *more*
> experience with XP. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and see
> what the attendees have to say afterward.

> --


akmal

--
[ akmal_chaudhri at bigfoot dot com      ]
[ http://www.bigfoot.com/~akmal_chaudhri ]

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Ronald E Jeffrie » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00



>And the Chrysler project isn't even complete.  They have little basis upon
>which to hang the validity of XP.

A rather startling new revelation of how little you really know about
XP and its uses, Elliott.

The Chrysler project went on-line in early 1997. It has been paying
the monthly-paid employees ever since, while developing additional
capability for other populations. Using XP.

They did it, it works, they've been maintaining it, it still works.

Get a clue or get out. I'm really tiring of your unfounded and
ignorant assertions. Chip in with ideas for a change, OK?

Ron Jeffries
http://www.XProgramming.com
Disclaimer:  I could be wrong -- but I'm not.
        (Eagles, "Victim of Love")

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Robert C. Marti » Wed, 06 Oct 1999 04:00:00


Regarding the December 6th-10th XP class in Chicago (see
http://www.objectmentor.com)

Quote:>I mean it's ludicrous that RMartin who said only 2 months ago that he was
>checking XP out is now such authority he's an instructor on it for money.

If it were just me, I'd have to agree with you.  I'm no eXPert yet; though I
have been studying Kent's work for well over a year, have used many of the
XP practices for many years, and have begun to incorporate more and more of
XP into our developments.  Given all that, I remain something of a skeptic
in some ways.

In any case, XP "reasonates" with my view of software development, and its
successes intrigue me.  Elliott, you yourself have recognized that
reasonance by so frequently referring to "the XPers and OMAers" as though
they were the same body of people.

So, consider me a host.  We, at Object Mentor, felt it would be a good idea
to host a five day class that gives engineers the opportunity to *try* XP
for themselves with Kent, Martin Fowler, and several other eXPerts to gude
them.  I will be instructing, but only in areas that I feel confident as an
exepert.  (i.e. principles of OOD, etc.)  Kent Beck and Martin Fowler (and
others) will be the real authorities present.  I intend to learn as much as
I teach...

Robert C. Martin    | Design Consulting   | Training courses offered:

14619 N Somerset Cr | Tel: (800) 338-6716 |   C++
Green Oaks IL 60048 | Fax: (847) 918-1023 | http://www.oma.com

TINCC.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by El » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00



#>
#> : You've got people teaching this thing, as experts, who only 2 months
#> : ago were saying they wanted to study XP further.  It seems like
#> : names are being used to make a profit and in an opportunistic way.

#> Sigh. And how long have you been in America? 8*)

Long enuff to know a sucker is born every minute and that there things like
this course which try to take advantage of it.

#> Actually I am not that cynical. From what I know of the three
#> instructors they are more level headed than that. But I agree with the
#> underlying advice that more experience with XP per se is necessary.

I mean it's ludicrous that RMartin who said only 2 months ago that he was
checking XP out is now such authority he's an instructor on it for money.  Or
perhaps it speaks to shallowness of XP?  Either way, I see XP mainly as mind
candy for many prima donna coders.

Elliott
--
   :=***=:  Objective  *  Holistic  *  Overall pre-code Modelling  :=***=:
                      Hallmarks of the best SW Engineering
   study Craftite vs. Full Blown OO:  http://www.access.digex.net/~ell
copyright 1999 Elliott. exclusive of others' writing. may be copied freely
                 only in comp., phil., sci. usenet & bitnet & otug.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Patrick Loga » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00


: I mean it's ludicrous that RMartin who said only 2 months ago that
: he was checking XP out is now such authority he's an instructor on
: it for money.  Or perhaps it speaks to shallowness of XP?  Either
: way, I see XP mainly as mind candy for many prima donna coders.

I don't know anything about his experience with XP and I doubt you do
either. Anyway, he is one of the instructors along with Kent Beck and
Martin Fowler. Both have been involved with the Chrysler payroll
project and Kent Beck at least in some sense the leader of XP per se.

Given Robert Martin's other experience and writing, etc. I don't think
it is fair to say this *team* is anything but qualified to talk about
XP. (Combined with the guests the web site hints at, etc. even more
so.)

Enough troublemaking.

--

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by El » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00


#
#: I mean it's ludicrous that RMartin who said only 2 months ago that
#: he was checking XP out is now such authority he's an instructor on
#: it for money.  Or perhaps it speaks to shallowness of XP?  Either
#: way, I see XP mainly as mind candy for many prima donna coders.

#I don't know anything about his experience with XP and I doubt you do
#either.

What I do know is that on otug. comp.object or both RMartin said he was
checking out XP, just 2 months ago.

# Anyway, he is one of the instructors along with Kent Beck and
#Martin Fowler. Both have been involved with the Chrysler payroll
#project and Kent Beck at least in some sense the leader of XP per se.

And the Chrysler project isn't even complete.  They have little basis upon
which to hang the validity of XP.

#Given Robert Martin's other experience and writing, etc. I don't think
#it is fair to say this *team* is anything but qualified to talk about
#XP. (Combined with the guests the web site hints at, etc. even more
#so.)

Well gee I do.  I think it's a fraud for RMartin who 2 months ago said he was
checking out XP to now request money for services in connection with it.

Even Fowler is suspect.  From reading the XP web sites all I have read is that
Fowler agrees with aspects of XP.  I've seen nothing written by Fowler on XP.
by him.  He is a flip-flopper in my view.  He supported RUP and the Use Case
Driven approach in the past on comp.object, but now is making more bucks
pushing prima donna centric XP.  I guess I should have expected this because
of Fowler's previous unasked term "borrowing" from me.

#Enough troublemaking.

If what I said were simply trouble making, you'd have a point.

Elliott
--
   :=***=:  Objective  *  Holistic  *  Overall pre-code Modelling  :=***=:
                      Hallmarks of the best SW Engineering
   study Craftite vs. Full Blown OO:  http://www.access.digex.net/~ell
copyright 1999 Elliott. exclusive of others' writing. may be copied freely
                 only in comp., phil., sci. usenet & bitnet & otug.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by El » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00




#>And the Chrysler project isn't even complete.  They have little basis upon
#>which to hang the validity of XP.

#A rather startling new revelation of how little you really know about
#XP and its uses, Elliott.

I know what I've read at the old wiki and your site.  I've read the old wiki
and Beck for 2 years.  I know the essence of the madness what XP is about.
Just what you said about code ownership is looney tunes.  yagni is lame,
merciless refactoring is lame, code is the design is lame, system metaphor is
weak as architecture (local optimization only), design only in peoples head is
lame.  I understand what the XP monstrosity is about.

#The Chrysler project went on-line in early 1997. It has been paying
#the monthly-paid employees ever since, while developing additional
#capability for other populations. Using XP.
#
#They did it, it works, they've been maintaining it, it still works.
#
#Get a clue or get out. I'm really tiring of your unfounded and
#ignorant assertions. Chip in with ideas for a change, OK?

If you've been reading at one point I said it was complete, but someone else
said it was on-going.  And big deal, one project, and who knows how successful
it really was/is, other than what you all say.  Give us more proof of it's
goodness, would'ya?

Elliott
--
   :=***=:  Objective  *  Holistic  *  Overall pre-code Modelling  :=***=:
                      Hallmarks of the best SW Engineering
   study Craftite vs. Full Blown OO:  http://www.access.digex.net/~ell
copyright 1999 Elliott. exclusive of others' writing. may be copied freely
                 only in comp., phil., sci. usenet & bitnet & otug.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Robert C. Marti » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00



>Even Fowler is suspect.  From reading the XP web sites all I have read is
that
>Fowler agrees with aspects of XP.

Martin Fowler was part of the C3 team.  He participated in the XP stuff with
Kent and Ron there.

Quote:>I've seen nothing written by Fowler on XP.

The refactoring book documents one of the main constituents of XP.

Quote:>He is a flip-flopper in my view.  He supported RUP and the Use Case
>Driven approach in the past on comp.object, but now is making more bucks
>pushing prima donna centric XP.

It is not impossible to support both RUP and XP, Elliott.

Quote:>I guess I should have expected this because
>of Fowler's previous unasked term "borrowing" from me.

Can you provide some kind of proof of this claim?

Robert C. Martin    | Design Consulting   | Training courses offered:

14619 N Somerset Cr | Tel: (800) 338-6716 |   C++
Green Oaks IL 60048 | Fax: (847) 918-1023 | http://www.oma.com

TINCC.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by El » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00



#I will be instructing, but only in areas that I feel confident as an
#exepert.  (i.e. principles of OOD, etc.)

Sorry, you're no expert here either.  Serious hackery, serious craftism, and
serious Cowboy coderism.

Elliott

TICC
--
   :=***=:  Objective  *  Holistic  *  Overall pre-code Modelling  :=***=:
                      Hallmarks of the best SW Engineering
   study Craftite vs. Full Blown OO:  http://www.access.digex.net/~ell
copyright 1999 Elliott. exclusive of others' writing. may be copied freely
                 only in comp., phil., sci. usenet & bitnet & otug.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Richard Parki » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00


Ell:

Quote:> I know what I've read at the old wiki and your site.  I've read the old
wiki
> and Beck for 2 years.  I know the essence of the madness what XP is about.
> Just what you said about code ownership is looney tunes.  yagni is lame,
> merciless refactoring is lame, code is the design is lame, system metaphor
is
> weak as architecture (local optimization only), design only in peoples
head is
> lame.  I understand what the XP monstrosity is about.

You missed the "IMHO"

and

Ell:


>#I will be instructing, but only in areas that I feel confident as an
>#exepert.  (i.e. principles of OOD, etc.)

>Sorry, you're no expert here either.  Serious hackery, serious craftism,
and
>serious Cowboy coderism.

Hmmm. Elliot, the above two posts have not illuminated your argument nor
have they helped your reputation. I hope they are an isolated incident so I
can consider the merits of both arguments without wading through insults.

Yours respectfully.

Ric

 -disclaimer-
 unless stated otherwise, everything in the above message is personal opinion
 and nothing in it is an official statement of molecular simulations inc.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Adam Spit » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00



> Just what you said about code ownership is looney tunes.  yagni is
> lame, merciless refactoring is lame, code is the design is lame,
> system metaphor is weak as architecture (local optimization only),
> design only in peoples head is lame.

Hey, thanks! I first learned about XP last week, and I've spent my time
since then reading the websites and thinking that these were some
really great ideas. They made sense, they seemed well-thought-out...
I'm amazed that I had everything so wrong. Just goes to show: you can't
believe everything you read, can you? It's a good thing you told me
that XP is lame, or I might have been completely fooled by all those
rational arguments.

Adam Spitz

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

ANNOUNCE: XP Training - Beck, Fowler, Martin Instructors

Post by Don Well » Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:00:00



>hackery hack hack hacked

From the Princess Bride:
Quote:>You keep using that word.  I don't think it means what you think it means.

 
 
 

1. ANNOUNCE: XP Immersion Training in Santa Cruz, CA: Beck, Fowler, Jeffries, Martin Instructors

"None better in the industry!!"  - feedback from XP Immersion One

What:  XP Immersion Training - 5 Intensive Days of XP in Java or C++
When:  February 28-March 3, 2000
Where:  Santa Cruz, CA
Instructors:  Kent Beck, Martin Fowler, Ron Jeffries, Robert Martin
Course size will be limited, so register early!

For details and registration visit http://www.objectmentor.com, send e-mail

Following the great success of the first XP Immersion Training last
December,
Object Mentor announces the next  XP Immersion Training Course in northen
California.
Now expanded to include C++ programmers!

Extreme Programming (XP) has sparked much interest and debate in the
software development community.  The practices of XP challenge many
established norms of software development.  The success stories and common
sense approach make XP a compelling approach to software development which
will have a profound impact on the software development community in the
years to come.

Through this course, students will experience a week of Extreme Programming.
During the days, an application will be developed in Java or C++ using the
practices of XP.  Brief lecture, demonstration, and coaching will be
provided
by Kent Beck, Martin Fowler, Ron Jeffries, Robert Martin, and others.
Evenings
will feature talks on topics related to XP.

"Out-[snip]ing-standing, the most frustrating, educational, and worthwile
experience I've had"
                                 - more feedback from XP Immersion One

2. Infrared + com port

3. XP2000 invited speakers: Ron Jeffries, Robert C. Martin, Ralph Johnson, Dave Thomas, and Martin Fowler

4. Lambda Box #6

5. Custom reports

6. Announce: Robert Martin on XP!

7. Real-file-size

8. eXPedition -- Kent Beck, Ron Jeffries, and Robert Martin tour of the East Coast.

9. Slightly unclear in POEA by Martin Fowler

10. Question for Uncle Bob, Martin Fowler, Topmind, H S Lahman

11. Martin Fowler (author of "Analysis Patterns") needs your help

12. Looking for Martin Fowler