Borland vs. Microsoft

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Kent & Ka » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00



I am interested in hearing opinions from professional programmers on the
relative merits of Borland and Microsoft development products, particularly
Borland C++ Builder 3.0 and the latest incarnation of Visual C++. Also
opinions of the new Developer Studio 6.0. I don't want to start a war here,
I'm just trying to decide what to buy.

    Also I'd like to hear what people think of the MSDN subscription, where
you get all the Microsoft stuff for a couple of thousand bucks or something
like that - is it worth it?

Some information about me to provide context for the question:
 I'm a relatively  new programmer, with a little professional experience
doing maintenance and enhancements on programs written mostly in C, some
C++. I'm looking to increase my marketability by broadening and deepening my
skills, and I want to learn to use up to date tools.I've used Borland
compilers(BC++ 4.5) for my windows stuff at work, but didn't use the IDE.
I've used Microsoft  Visual C++ 4.0 for hobby stuff at home - nothing heavy
duty.  I really don't have strong opinions (Borland vs. MS)  either way
based on my limited experience, so I'm asking here for the opinions of those
who have more.

                                                    Kent.

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Chris Marriot » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00



>I am interested in hearing opinions from professional programmers on the
>relative merits of Borland and Microsoft development products, particularly
>Borland C++ Builder 3.0 and the latest incarnation of Visual C++. Also
>opinions of the new Developer Studio 6.0. I don't want to start a war here,
>I'm just trying to decide what to buy.

VC++ completely dominates the commercial C++ software development world, and
the vast majority of C++ programming libraries are written for VC++. There's
no doubt (IMHO) that VC++ is the system to go for.

Quote:

>    Also I'd like to hear what people think of the MSDN subscription, where
>you get all the Microsoft stuff for a couple of thousand bucks or something
>like that - is it worth it?

The "Pro" subscription is definitely worthwhile; that gets you the library
CDs, operating systems, SDKs and DDK. The "universal" subscription is
probably not worth the money - no one person can use everything in it!

Chris
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Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Kyle McDonal » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00


Kent,

MSDN is worth it. Unless you are developing a ton of stuff, the mid level
subscription to MSDN is great and you dont need the big kahuna. With the mid
level subscription you get the DDKs and all the OS's you could ever want.
There are answers to zillions of questions and a lot of source too. The
subscription is called "MSDN Professional" and costs $499.00 + $25.00
shipping. At least thats the price on the renewal Bill just sent. However,
if you dont need the DDKs, OS's and International OS's, you can find all the
same info at: http://www.microsoft.com/msdn But, its s l o w....

Kyle


http://www.addisonsw.com


>I am interested in hearing opinions from professional programmers on the
>relative merits of Borland and Microsoft development products, particularly
>Borland C++ Builder 3.0 and the latest incarnation of Visual C++. Also
>opinions of the new Developer Studio 6.0. I don't want to start a war here,
>I'm just trying to decide what to buy.

>    Also I'd like to hear what people think of the MSDN subscription, where
>you get all the Microsoft stuff for a couple of thousand bucks or something
>like that - is it worth it?

>Some information about me to provide context for the question:
> I'm a relatively  new programmer, with a little professional experience
>doing maintenance and enhancements on programs written mostly in C, some
>C++. I'm looking to increase my marketability by broadening and deepening
my
>skills, and I want to learn to use up to date tools.I've used Borland
>compilers(BC++ 4.5) for my windows stuff at work, but didn't use the IDE.
>I've used Microsoft  Visual C++ 4.0 for hobby stuff at home - nothing heavy
>duty.  I really don't have strong opinions (Borland vs. MS)  either way
>based on my limited experience, so I'm asking here for the opinions of
those
>who have more.

>                                                    Kent.

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Stephen Macdonal » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00




Quote:>I am interested in hearing opinions from professional programmers on the
>relative merits of Borland and Microsoft development products,

Traditionally, throughout the 80's at least, Borland was always the best
compiler producer between the two, certainly up to BC++3.1 (4.0 and 4.5
had "problems", in the opinion of most programmers). I lost count of the
number of people who thought that the Microsoft compilers were *(and
that's more or less in the days before people slagged Microsoft just for
the fun of it).

The Borland compilers were faster, produced faster and more reliable
code (although not as fast as Watcom etc), and generally had better
compiler error messages and an IDE.

Microsoft have clearly invested a large number of millions of dollars
with their current very professional (and often very impressive)
compiler/environments. However, I don't know about the current Borland
(Inprise) products. It would be good to see the technical comments of a
current Borland user, particularly one who has been using the Borland
products since the early days of TC and TC++ (to see if things have
continued to go downhill from BC++4.0), and one who knows both the
current Borland and MS development environments intimately, especially
on characteristics such as compilation speed, code efficiency, compiler
bugs etc.

Does such a person exist and read Usenet ?

--

Stephen Macdonald

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by John A. Gran » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00





>>I am interested in hearing opinions from professional programmers on the
>>relative merits of Borland and Microsoft development products,

>Traditionally, throughout the 80's at least, Borland was always the best
>compiler producer between the two, certainly up to BC++3.1 (4.0 and 4.5
>had "problems", in the opinion of most programmers). I lost count of the
>number of people who thought that the Microsoft compilers were *(and
>that's more or less in the days before people slagged Microsoft just for
>the fun of it).

>The Borland compilers were faster, produced faster and more reliable
>code (although not as fast as Watcom etc), and generally had better
>compiler error messages and an IDE.

>Microsoft have clearly invested a large number of millions of dollars
>with their current very professional (and often very impressive)
>compiler/environments. However, I don't know about the current Borland
>(Inprise) products. It would be good to see the technical comments of a
>current Borland user, particularly one who has been using the Borland
>products since the early days of TC and TC++ (to see if things have
>continued to go downhill from BC++4.0), and one who knows both the
>current Borland and MS development environments intimately, especially
>on characteristics such as compilation speed, code efficiency, compiler
>bugs etc.

>Does such a person exist and read Usenet ?

    Sure, there's a few of us out here :)

    I've used Borland since TurboC 2. IMO the best product
    Borland ever made was BC++ 3.1. (1992, same time as
    Windows 3.1 came out). It's compact, fast, has a nice IDE
    for both DOS & Windows and includes a command-line
    compiler too.  I keep it on my laptop, because it doesn't
    require 64 Mb of memory and 300 Mb of disk space.

    I skipped all of the version 4 products, because I wasn't doing
    much programming then. I have BC++ 5.02 now and it's very
    good, but my needs are simple, so I continue to use BC++ 3.1.
    I have a pile of DOS/Windows code in libraries that needs
    to be ported to Win32 someday, but it's a low priority for
    me.

    I don't use OWL or MFC, so that part of the compiler is
    irrelevant to me. A nice feature of BC++ 5.02 is that it
    can create 16-bit DOS and Windows apps as well as
    32-bit console & Windows apps. I think VC++ can only
    create Win32 apps.

    I don't know how CBuilder (successor to BC++ 5) compares
    with Delphi, but I think they are comparable products.
    All of that drop & drag component stuff doesn't interest
    me much.

    Hmm, I guess I've pretty well labelled myself a dinosaur...

--
John A. Grant  * I speak only for myself *  (remove 'z' to reply)
Airborne Geophysics, Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
If you followup, please do NOT e-mail me a copy: I will read it here

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Chris Marriot » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00



>    I don't use OWL or MFC, so that part of the compiler is
>    irrelevant to me. A nice feature of BC++ 5.02 is that it
>    can create 16-bit DOS and Windows apps as well as
>    32-bit console & Windows apps. I think VC++ can only
>    create Win32 apps.

That's correct. I believe, however, that any VC++ owner can get the old
16-bit VC++ 1.5 either free or at a nominal cost, on request.

Chris
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Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Jeff Henke » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00


On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:40:30 +0100, "Chris Marriott"


>That's correct. I believe, however, that any VC++ owner can get the old
>16-bit VC++ 1.5 either free or at a nominal cost, on request.

In fact, it's included in the MSDN Platform Archive, so it's free to
anyone with a Professional or Universal subscription.
 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Chris Marriot » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00



>By the way, I've heard rumors that if latest MS compilers will insist
>on installing IE4 as part of the compiler install.  Don't know the
>truth of it but worth checking into if you're one of those people with
>strong feelings against IE4..

VC++5 uses IE4 to display its help system, but that's basically
"transparent". You are still free to use any other browser you want as your
normal web browser.

Chris
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Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Bob--Bo » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00


|>By the way, I've heard rumors that if latest MS compilers will insist
|>on installing IE4 as part of the compiler install.  Don't know the
|>truth of it but worth checking into if you're one of those people with
|>strong feelings against IE4..
|
|
|VC++5 uses IE4 to display its help system, but that's basically
|"transparent". You are still free to use any other browser you want as your
|normal web browser.
|

Of course the VC++ 5 help systems is a giant leap back from the VC++ 4.0
help system, in terms of speed especially.  Just as a side note, VC++ 5 and
IE 3 can not run on the same system.  So rather than upgrade to IE 4, I went
to Netscape.  What do you think of that Microsoft?

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Stephen Macdonal » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00



Quote:>  Just as a side note, VC++ 5 and
>IE 3 can not run on the same system.  So rather than upgrade to IE 4, I went
>to Netscape.  What do you think of that Microsoft?

Wrong. I run both on my system - no problems.

--

Stephen Macdonald

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Michael O'Gar » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00


VC5 and IE 3 CAN work on the same system.
I am using IE 3.01 to write this, and I have VC++5.0 installed (and use
both every day).
No IE 4.0 on my system!.  Works fine.
-- Mike



> |>By the way, I've heard rumors that if latest MS compilers will insist
> |>on installing IE4 as part of the compiler install.  Don't know the
> |>truth of it but worth checking into if you're one of those people with
> |>strong feelings against IE4..
> |
> |VC++5 uses IE4 to display its help system, but that's basically
> |"transparent". You are still free to use any other browser you want as
your
> |normal web browser.
> |
> Of course the VC++ 5 help systems is a giant leap back from the VC++ 4.0
> help system, in terms of speed especially.  Just as a side note, VC++ 5
and
> IE 3 can not run on the same system.  So rather than upgrade to IE 4, I
went
> to Netscape.  What do you think of that Microsoft?

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Davide Marca » Tue, 01 Sep 1998 04:00:00


On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:45:08 +0100 "Chris Marriott"


>>    Also I'd like to hear what people think of the MSDN subscription, where
>>you get all the Microsoft stuff for a couple of thousand bucks or something
>>like that - is it worth it?

>The "Pro" subscription is definitely worthwhile; that gets you the library
>CDs, operating systems, SDKs and DDK. The "universal" subscription is
>probably not worth the money - no one person can use everything in it!

Oh well, and I was just upgrading to MSDN Universal :-)
Sure it is not worthwhile? Besides documentation, the OSes and the SDKs, it
includes all the developer tools and Office. Opinions welcome.

Davide Marcato.
----------------------------------------------------
| -- * International Consultant
| -- Win32/MFC/COM Development & Training
| -- Technical Writer & Speaker
----------------------------------------------------

| -- Web: http://www.veryComputer.com/ [Coming Soon]
----------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Chris Marriot » Tue, 01 Sep 1998 04:00:00



>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:45:08 +0100 "Chris Marriott"

>>>    Also I'd like to hear what people think of the MSDN subscription,
where
>>>you get all the Microsoft stuff for a couple of thousand bucks or
something
>>>like that - is it worth it?

>>The "Pro" subscription is definitely worthwhile; that gets you the library
>>CDs, operating systems, SDKs and DDK. The "universal" subscription is
>>probably not worth the money - no one person can use everything in it!

>Oh well, and I was just upgrading to MSDN Universal :-)
>Sure it is not worthwhile? Besides documentation, the OSes and the SDKs, it
>includes all the developer tools and Office. Opinions welcome.

Don't get me wrong David; the Universal subscription is very good indeed - I
have one myself (it's one of the "freebies" you get when you're a Microsoft
MVP). I'm just saying that if you're a single developer, rather than a
company, it's a LOT of money to spend. and it might be cheaper to get the
Pro subscription and buy the specific tools that you use.

Chris
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Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Rory Winsto » Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:00:00


whats an MVP?
Rory

>have one myself (it's one of the "freebies" you get when you're a Microsoft
>MVP). I'm just saying that if you're a single developer, rather than a
>company, it's a LOT of money to spend. and it might be cheaper to get the
>Pro subscription and buy the specific tools that you use.

>Chris
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>Visit our web site at http://www.skymap.com
>Astronomy software written by astronomers, for astronomers

 
 
 

Borland vs. Microsoft

Post by Rory Winsto » Wed, 09 Sep 1998 04:00:00


whats an MVP?

Rory

Quote:>Don't get me wrong David; the Universal subscription is very good indeed -
I
>have one myself (it's one of the "freebies" you get when you're a Microsoft
>MVP). >Chris

 
 
 

1. Opinions on Borland vs Microsoft C++ sought

Hi,
I am a MSVC 1.0 user trying to decide between an MSVC 1.5 upgrade and a
switch to Borland 4.0. My requirements are:

   target Win 3.1, 16-bit code, non-commercial
   host 486 with 12Megs, Win 3.1, CDROM, multimedia

How do they compare in terms of the development environment, editor,
debugger, on-line help... I have been happy with the level of
non-bugginess of MSVC, is Borland similar? I like AppStudio in MSVC, does
Borland have a counterpart? Would it be easy to convert to Borland for a
person who is comfortable with MSVC? I haven't touched MFC yet, is this
consistant with a possible new Borland user? Are there any compatiblity
problems with 3rd party libraries not usable with Borland?

Thanks a bunch for any information.
I hope I don't start a love-hate war! :)

Barry.

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