Very Computer

FLAME ON!

Come _ON_ NEXT! Didn't you guys tell _anybody_ that ADB was coming out??!!??

Today I add Wordperfect, yep, Wordperfect, that double page advertizer,
one of those companies that NeXT takes so much pride in having them running
on the box, to the list of software that no workee with ADB. And I mean no
workee, Wordperfect without a keyboard is like a bicycle with no tires/chain/
pedals/handlebar...

Who do you have to be for NeXT to bring you into the loop on something
this major? They're breaking some of their big out-front flagship products
and apparently have decided to wait and spring it as an October surprise.
Hey Steve, that was Ross that was supposed to have the October surprise for
Bush. Not you guys! It's not even Halloween yet and you guys are going
"Trick or Treat!" I thought I'd gotten the treat...

I say again, they warned me I'd burn up a monitor I didn't own. They didn't
say they were going to break all this expensive software I've purchased!!! I
mean they've broken damn near every single piece of software I've _ever_
purchased for my NeXT. I can't think of even one that I haven't had to do
something to in order to get it to work after the ADB upgrade. So make that
that they busted every damn piece of software I've purchased.

Even the much lamented System 7 fiasco at Apple didn't do that well at
screwing everyone over.

So, if you're buying a NeXT and you're thinking about getting it with
ADB (which is rapidly becoming your _only_ option) you might want to make
sure whatever software you're going to use is ADB capable.

So NeXT, what _OTHER_ big ticket products don't work with your computers?
If I go out and purchase Improv am I going to be putting it on the floor and
jumping up and down on it? If Wordperfect is toast, how about WriteNow? Hmm,
how about Microphone II?  PasteUp, FrameMaker, how about the X servers (ooh
I bet the X servers are _all_ busted up since they supply X scancodes and
thus are almost for sure going to be dead!!!) SimonSays, can Simon say ADB?

And where the _HELL_ was NeXTWorld? There's plenty to go around here. Not
one goddamn word was said in the Winter 1992 issue about how this keyboard
was going to cause all this trouble. They claim they used the keyboard/mouse.
I've had mine less than a week and I keep running into broken software. I
get the impression that NeXTWorld was asleep at the wheel. I would have been
very happy if NeXTWorld had come out and said "But alas the keyboard will
require that some programs be modified for them to work with the new ADB
keyboard." And then published a list of the products that they had found in
their testing that would need to be upgraded. Sounds real reasonable to me,
so where was it?

**********    SCOTTY TO NEXTWORLD, WAKE UP! ***********

And I have to shake my head again when I think back to Q192 when people
were posting here on Usenet about how they were going to meetings about the
new keyboards. It's not like NeXT has kept this thing secret. And it's not
like NeXT whipped this thing into shape at the last minute. The dates on
the ADB headers in 3.0 are 12-Sep-91 and 07-Oct-91!!! Hell that's over a YEAR  
AGO! And in all that time no one at NeXT stuck their head up and went "Uh,
guys, you're going to need to make sure your software works with the ADB
change."

Hmm, who else should have gotten the word out?

What about ANDI? As I make it this is some sort of independent NeXT developer
support group. Why the hell weren't they raising the alarm?

********    SCOTTY TO ANDI, GET A REAL EMAIL ADDRESS AND WAKE UP!  ********

Hmm, how about BaNG? M Carling seems to have an inside relationship with
NeXT, and not a peep from anyone at BaNG about the sky coming down.

Oh boy, I just finished installing the co-Xist 2.1.2 DEMO and guess what?
Yep, no workee! Hey guys, where were YOU when NeXT was working on ADB last
year? Or even earlier this summer when they started shipping NeXT's with
3.1v71 bootroms that could handle ADB? Didn't anyone at NeXT tell you folks
that co-Xist was going to be broken RSN? Are you ready for all the confused
phone calls from people wondering why they type ls into xterm and get
giberish instead? Hmm, might be amusing to call them and find ouT. :)

So pile one more product on the dead software pile. I imagine I'm right about
Cub-X and the freely available X11R5 servers as well, sigh.

And here I sit again going, how in hell could NeXTWorld have missed this? I
mean geez, there must have been 5 different pictures of the new keyboard in
that issue. They were obviously all over the damn thing, I guess they spent
more time looking at it rather than using it.

I love the new keyboard, I love my EMAC trackball, I love my 12x12 digitizer
tablet that isn't eating one of my serial ports. This ADB would have one
hell of a nice Halloween treat.

But I'm afraid I'm going to have to take the ADB offline. All these goodies are
just NO DAMN GOOD TOO ME IF MY SOFTWARE DOESN'T WORK WITH THEM!!!

soundbox? But then what? I've got all this stuff I just paid NeXT hard earned
buckos for. And all these wonderful third party ADB goodies...

Hey NeXT what do you think I should do with them eh? Did you guys think ahead
and hide a compatibility switch someplace in 3.0. Hell what am I thinking
about, of course you guys didn't put such a switch in 3.0. I must be going
nuts to even THINK you guys would do something that makes so much damn sense.

Let's see, this ADB keyboard is going to break software left and right.
Should we put a switch in so people can limp old applications along until
our mushroomed software developers can find out what we've done to them and
get their software modified???

God I'm *PISSED*!!! Oh I forgot, Cub-X is going to be demoing their product
thursday in Portland... Hmm, maybe I should share the fun and take my
machine down and dare them to run their product on it. That could be amusing.

And now I've got to call Wordperfect, on _MY_ dime and beg them for something
that NeXT should have been in charge of making sure would be available Right
up front wiTh no surprises involved. When they were saying "It'll cook your
monitor" they should have added "You'll need new software" hell there should
have been a list in the starting point box that stated what versions of this
and that I needed in order to operate with this nifty new keyboard.

Grrrrrrr.

FLAME OFF

let me finish with a final thought to NeXT, please amaze me. Step up and fix
this. I think it could be fixed overnight with a new sdmach that xlats ADB
to NeXTeze. I'd rather keep using your wonderful new keyboard and all my
neat ADB goodies. How about it, am I asking for too much?

As for NeXTWorld, I always knew there was a reason I never subscribed to this
rag. They've lived down to my expectations. Way to go!

To everyone else, sorry about the flames.

Scotty

Hear, hear! Add to this that for NEXT not to offer, I mean come out
and OFFER, a way to upgrade brandnew Mono Turbo machines to the brandnew
ADB stuff (which will probably become compatible in '93 sometime :-) )
is a CLEAR SIGN that Next is not worth sticking with.

Now I'm waiting until software will no longer support the OLD keyboard and
mouse! With NO UPGRADE PATH!

R. de Lucca
Johns Hopkins University

Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Keywords:

(Whoosh! goes the flamethrower as Cliff warms up!)

Hey, yentzes, wake up. I've staked my reputation over here pushing NeXT and  
NeXTSTEP as the greatest thing since symbolic de*s.

So, what happens? I order a new printer and 400M/32M NeXT Turbo about a day  
before ya'll make the upgrade to ADB.

Does your order mis-management system system call me up and ask what I'd like  
on my brand new NeXT? No.

Great. We commit to next (20+ slabs in-house with plans to outfit all our  
developers with NeXTStep) and you show us no consideration.

You know, if a small supplier of software did this to me I'd sever the  
relationship as soon as I could.

How long have you known about this hardware/software requirements of ADB? Why  
couldn't you start making your systems compatible a long time ago?

NeXTWorld did their usual low-quality pandering piece on your manufacturing and  
ADB keyboard in their latest issue and that is probably the cherry on the top  
for me.

I mean, you've got ME's coming out your ears and the spiffiest manufacturing  
line in creation and you can't make your systems keyboard/peripheral  
compatible? (Not to mention that you have been running a three week backlog on  
systems for the past two years!)

Nor, apparently, can you test applications worth a hoot. Your 3.0 PRx system  
worked great: ever think of beta'ing hardware? Nah, too obvious.

(Bang! goes the napalm as Cliff turns the flamethrower on himself!)

Great, I can't wait to face the snickering and jibes when I have to explain why  
we can't upgrade all these three month "old" NeXT's to the new keyboards. It's  
bad enough how hard I had to push to help get this stuff in here, now I have to  
take abuse for ya'lls screw-ups.

Steve, are you out there? Are you listening? Remember, you have to market  
to/for the people on the line out here. Keep in mind, it's easier to be a C++  
(ick!) programmer on a Sun (double ick!) than to try to shove management over  
to the 'right' system. (Easier meaning more jobs for more money.)

--


(919) 460-3295 (fax) | All I want to do is go home now, please.          

Quote:(Scott Turner) writes:

> Today I add Wordperfect, yep, Wordperfect, that double page advertizer,
> one of those companies that NeXT takes so much pride in having them  
running
> on the box, to the list of software that no workee with ADB. And I mean  
no
> workee, Wordperfect without a keyboard is like a bicycle with no  
tires/chain/
> pedals/handlebar...

You really should call WordPerfect.  They released a maintenance upgrade  
dated September 25, which works with the ADB keyboard and fixes other  
3.0-introducted bugs.

Rob Macfarlane
Faculty of Arts Computer Lab
McGill University
QUIT
ter Lab
McGill University

This is interesting...does this mean that if you buy the new NeXT trinitron
Monitor (Which requires all the ADB stuff) that basically you have a completety
dead machine that will not run anything except the software pre installed on the
machine?!

If this is the case I think NeXT have a SERIOUS Problem!!

am I mistaken or where then not phasing out the fermi monitors.

john.

Quote:> If I go out and purchase Improv am I going to be putting it on the floor and
> jumping up and down on it? If Wordperfect is toast, how about WriteNow? Hmm,
> how about Microphone II?  PasteUp, FrameMaker, how about the X servers (ooh
> I bet the X servers are _all_ busted up since they supply X scancodes and
> thus are almost for sure going to be dead!!!) SimonSays, can Simon say ADB?

Is this also a lesson for developers not to write code with hardware
dependencies?  Just think of all the freshly minted CD-ROM's that
contain ADB-broken software, perpetuating the disease forever!! Bwaahahaha!!

Hmm, maybe now we know why the table() call is undocumented.  Should
we eradicate those calls now to avoid breakage in the future? :-)

Quote:Turner) writes:

> FLAME ON!

> [Lengthy and understandable flame deleted]

> FLAME OFF

Software which breaks probably does so because it violates the rules and  
directly reads the keyboard hardware scan codes. This is a no-no; forthermore,  
it's unnecessary. We (blush) were doing it for the arrow keys; NeXT pointed out  
the correct way of reading them, and we changed our code (one or two lines).  
There is no way that NeXT can somehow "xlate" those hardware scan codes  
automatically; the fault is that of the developers, not of NeXT.

This is exactly the same problem that Apple goes through with every significant  
software/hardware update; there are major Mac applications which still can't  
run at full speed on the Quadra series, because they break if you turn the '040  
cache on (a problem which, to my knowledge, virtually all NeXT apps avoided).

Why didn't ANDI somehow do testing and alert everyone? Because none of the  
board members (to my knowledge) have any of the new ADB machines, we don't yet  
have a "new hardware testing committee" (want to volunteer?), and NeXT  
certainly wasn't offering any hardware for testing purposes.

Why didn't NeXTWORLD catch this in their coverage? I don't know--I wasn't  
involved with that article at all--but given the lead times required (remember,  
I as a developer wasn't informed of the change until August; the article was  
probably written in June or July), I suspect that the NeXTWORLD authors weren't  
given an opportunity to take home an ADB-equipped NeXTstation and launch and  
test every major NeXT application. My guess is that the authors got about 20  
minutes sitting at a demo machine at NeXT HQ.

In short, I understand your anger and frustration, but I think you're largely  
aiming at the wrong people. I do think NeXT screwed up by not giving developers  
more advanced notice, but for all I know, they might have for those with  
shipping products, and some (such as WordPerfect) may just have not done  
anything about it (or had time to). By and large, though, the fault lies with  
the developers themselves who violated development rules and guidelines by  
directly accessing hardware.

Just out of curiosity, besides WordPerfect, is there any other commercial  
software which breaks on an ADB-equipped system?  ..bruce..

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce F. Webster             |  Shall I start a BBS? Do I dare to try to teach?
CTO, Pages Software Inc      |  I shall take my palmheld portable and
Contributing Ed., NeXTWORLD  |     and hack upon the beach.
President, ANDI              |  I have heard the networks passing packets
Collective Scapegoat  :-)    |     each to each

#import <pages/disclaimer.h> |            -- Jeff Duntemann
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What REALLY concerns me is how in the world can a hardware change like
that effect SOFTWARE in a severe way?  This is supposed to be an object
oriented environment and yet it sounds like adding ADB has caused the
kind of problems to NeXT software that I would have expected if I were
programming principally in 8086 Assembler bypassing the IBM PC ROM BIOS,
not writing object-oriented Obj-C code.  I mean doesn't TurdPerfect use
objects for handling text and keyboard inputs?  Why should changing
the way the keyboard is attached change the way those objects work in
any way shape or form???  

What is worse is what this portends for the future.  If there are indeed
major potential software incompatibilities between ADB and the old keyboard
attachment hardware, does this mean that software written in the future
to work with ADB will NOT work with old non-ADB hardware?  I guarantee
that this does NOT happen on Macintosh.  I have an original Mac 128 that
has gone through SEVERE upgrading and currently runs a LOT of new software,
mostly written since Macintosh went to ADB years ago and all of that
software works just fine, thank you, on my original Mac.  

NeXT, listen up, this is a critical issue and deserves immediate
attention if true.

Jon Rosen

Dave Griffiths

It's certainly possible that NeXT didn't document things clearly enough,
but in the case of the keyboard scan-codes example, one doesn't need to
be a rocket surgeon to realize that there are probably other, more secure
ways for an app to get keyboard input than reading the raw scan codes,
whether one suspected ADB was coming or not.  Going to the hardware on
any machine of this level of complexity is always a risk.
--
Royce Howland, DKW Systems Corp.   |  "And since OS/2 2.0 is a 32-bit
       Everything is IMHO          |   operating system, programs are easier

or kakwa!atlantis!splunge!royce    |  ad for OS/2 2.0

Quote:Turner) writes:
> I know, I know, flaming is pointless, useless, a waste of net bandwidth, is
> probably going to*off other people and start a long thread bashing
> NeXT. But this matter has just finally done me in, all I wanted to do was
> write one measly little FAX... Just one FAX...

Quote:

> let me finish with a final thought to NeXT, please amaze me. Step up and fix
> this. I think it could be fixed overnight with a new sdmach that xlats ADB
> to NeXTeze. I'd rather keep using your wonderful new keyboard and all my
> neat ADB goodies. How about it, am I asking for too much?

Quote:

> As for NeXTWorld, I always knew there was a reason I never subscribed to this
> rag. They've lived down to my expectations. Way to go!

> To everyone else, sorry about the flames.

Something, very much like this, happened in the early MAC days and Apple
simply said "We told you not to do hardware dependant coding so YOU fix it.

The Net result was a month or two of *ing, and from then on the software  
vendors wised up and stopped being stupid.    The ease of software transport  
across MAC model lines today is the result.  

The alternative puts us in the PC world, where you need drivers for every  
stinking video board, comm port board etc.   I don't want NeXT to do anything
that even implies to a vendor that they can get away with coding hardware  
dependancies into their code.

Of course NeXT could/should have been putting advanced hardware into the "big"  
vendors hands and NeXTworld should have seen this comming BUT

IMHO,  what you should be doing is calling up WordPerfect and everyone else and  
telling them that you want a free update, to correct THEIR coding errors.

I understand why your upset, I would be too, but I suggest that we will all be  
better off, if the software vendors catch HELL for this NOT NeXT.

Heres the article....FROM  NEXT!

!rosie!binky.next.com

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Change in keyboard ==> you might need to change your software

Date: 20 Aug 92 19:31:29 GMT


Lines: 26

It's time to leverage the net community to help spread the word about a  
impending hardware change that might require some software changes out in  
the world.  We will be changing the keyboard shipped with our systems.    
This will have no effect on most development, but the rare application  
that directly uses the hardware-dependent key codes needs to be aware of  
this change.

The keyCode information is available in the event data for key events.  It  
is documented as device-dependent information which is subject to changes  
in our hardware.  With the new keyboard, this prophecy is fulfilled.  The  
key codes have changed for the new keyboard and any application that uses  
raw key codes will almost certainly perform differently.   We would like  
to give developers advance warning to prepare for this.

The new keyboard will be shipping with color systems in September.  
Monochrome systems will be transitioned to the new keyboard a few months  
later.  As you can imagine, with NextStep 486 coming, you can expect even  
more variety in the keyboard types in the future.

You'll probably want to remove any hardware dependencies you have.  For  
the cases where this is not possible, please contact us (me?) to get the  
new key code map.

Julie Zelenski
Developer Support

Quote:> Scotty

What a bunch of morons.  With all the examples
cited in this thread, isn't it clear by now that
NeXT has no intention whatsoever of maintaining any
kind of "backward compatibility"?  Isn't it clear by
now that NeXT is only using current hardware sales to
finance their software development?  Isn't it clear
by now that once the installed base of NeXTSTEP exceeds
some threshold NeXT is going to abandon hardware
_completely_?  They don't need to worry about hardware
backward compatibility because soon there won't _be_ any
futre NeXT hardware.  A person would have to be an
imbecile to buy a NeXT computer or upgrade at this
point in time.  Just wait till NeXTSTEP is ported to
your favorite machine, and buy the software!  :-(