Help: Best communication method?

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Mike Dwye » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



We are exploring an application where there are many single dedicated
internet terminals (basically a kiosk) distributed though out various
locations around the country. Each terminal must have a communications
link to a host server, either through the internet, or by making a
direct call to the host server. The usage model is that a user would be
able to randomly query a database located on a host server and get a
response which takes no longer than the typical web page download (10-15
seconds or so). It is very important that the response time to the query
be quite fast.

It is expected that each terminal would make between 50-100 queries per
day. Each query results in the server returning either a small web page
or a small packet of data (maybe a few K bytes) depending on
implementation specifics. So the key here is not the data transfer time,
but rather the call set-up time and ISP port availability.

We need to keep the per location monthly communication cost low, such as
below $100 per location per month.

My thinking thus far from the data I have been able to gather:

Dedicated lines seem too expensive for this application (I understand
these to be > $300 month cost).

DSL not available in all areas and is expensive for business ($40/mo to
PacBell, + $200/mo to PacBell Internet Service).

V90 modem on-demand dial-up: call setup time is too great and the user
would likely experience a ~1 minute delay waiting for the response.
Also, without dedicated ISP access, the call may fail due to busy line.

ISDN: Maybe? What can you expect for call setup time?

Any ideas here would be greatly appreciated.

-Mike

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Tony Skinn » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00


ISDN is a valid option, however your going to run into possible busy
signals as one would with a modem. ISDN typically takes 1-3 seconds
for the initial call-setup. It offers good response times with regard
to ping and offers 64K up to 128K of bandwidth.

Your $100 per month limitation will hinder your ability to deliver
100% availability to the end-user.

Tony Skinner



Quote:>We are exploring an application where there are many single dedicated
>internet terminals (basically a kiosk) distributed though out various
>locations around the country. Each terminal must have a communications
>link to a host server, either through the internet, or by making a
>direct call to the host server. The usage model is that a user would be
>able to randomly query a database located on a host server and get a
>response which takes no longer than the typical web page download (10-15
>seconds or so). It is very important that the response time to the query
>be quite fast.

>It is expected that each terminal would make between 50-100 queries per
>day. Each query results in the server returning either a small web page
>or a small packet of data (maybe a few K bytes) depending on
>implementation specifics. So the key here is not the data transfer time,
>but rather the call set-up time and ISP port availability.

>We need to keep the per location monthly communication cost low, such as
>below $100 per location per month.

>My thinking thus far from the data I have been able to gather:

>Dedicated lines seem too expensive for this application (I understand
>these to be > $300 month cost).

>DSL not available in all areas and is expensive for business ($40/mo to
>PacBell, + $200/mo to PacBell Internet Service).

>V90 modem on-demand dial-up: call setup time is too great and the user
>would likely experience a ~1 minute delay waiting for the response.
>Also, without dedicated ISP access, the call may fail due to busy line.

>ISDN: Maybe? What can you expect for call setup time?

>Any ideas here would be greatly appreciated.

>-Mike


 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Sam C. Nicholson ! » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



> We are exploring an application where there are many single dedicated
> internet terminals (basically a kiosk) distributed though out various
> locations around the country. Each terminal must have a communications
> link to a host server, either through the internet, or by making a
> direct call to the host server. The usage model is that a user would be
> able to randomly query a database located on a host server and get a
> response which takes no longer than the typical web page download (10-15
> seconds or so). It is very important that the response time to the query
> be quite fast.

ISDN set-up is 4-6 seconds.  That gives you 10 to ask for and
deliver your  content.  Only you know whether you can do that.

Quote:

> It is expected that each terminal would make between 50-100 queries per
> day. Each query results in the server returning either a small web page
> or a small packet of data (maybe a few K bytes) depending on
> implementation specifics. So the key here is not the data transfer time,
> but rather the call set-up time and ISP port availability.

> We need to keep the per location monthly communication cost low, such as
> below $100 per location per month.

If you keep the connection aggressively shut down when idle, and you do
not incur a per-call charge, then ISDN will probably do the trick.  You
can even use one of the better rated ISPs that provide ISDN connex.

Only you know whether your numbers are solid or optimistic guesses.
Of course, if you are priced right, being popular is a good problem
to have!

100 queries, 1 minute per query - 1.6hours per day or just under 50
hours
per month.  Here in Bell Atl/South, you'd be paying 60-75 bucks per
month
for the ISDN line, say $25 bucks for the ISP (with 50 hrs ISDN).

OK, you're in under $100!

Quote:

> My thinking thus far from the data I have been able to gather:

> Dedicated lines seem too expensive for this application (I understand
> these to be > $300 month cost).

> DSL not available in all areas and is expensive for business ($40/mo to
> PacBell, + $200/mo to PacBell Internet Service).

> V90 modem on-demand dial-up: call setup time is too great and the user
> would likely experience a ~1 minute delay waiting for the response.
> Also, without dedicated ISP access, the call may fail due to busy line.

> ISDN: Maybe? What can you expect for call setup time?

Yep, ISDN will do it.  Again, it is fast.

NB users are fickle.  It may not be fast enough.  

At $.1 per minute, you may consider LD, even if you have to use 56K
circuits.


Quote:> Any ideas here would be greatly appreciated.

> -Mike

OK, here's the config I'd use.

[ computer ] - ethernet - [ Ascend/Zyxel ISDN router ] -- \\
        \\-ISDN -- PSTN -- ISP -- Internet -- Server

If I had the flexibility to use a real OS, I'd configure a modem off the
pots port such that I could remotely log-in to the console in case I
needed to effect repair.   I'd also install a secondary set of IP
addresses such that I could use my central site to call out to the
routers and set up a session for repairs and the like where console
access wan't necessary.

Heck, if I couldn't choose my OS, I'd quit.

BTW,  I do the above everyday.  Fortunately, I don't have walk-up
users to denigrate my connection times.  I'm all batch proc.

-sam

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Jochen Kle » Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:00:00



> We are exploring an application where there are many single dedicated
> internet terminals (basically a kiosk) distributed though out various
> locations around the country. Each terminal must have a communications
> link to a host server, either through the internet, or by making a
> direct call to the host server. The usage model is that a user would be
> able to randomly query a database located on a host server and get a
> response which takes no longer than the typical web page download (10-15
> seconds or so). It is very important that the response time to the query
> be quite fast.

> It is expected that each terminal would make between 50-100 queries per
> day. Each query results in the server returning either a small web page
> or a small packet of data (maybe a few K bytes) depending on
> implementation specifics. So the key here is not the data transfer time,
> but rather the call set-up time and ISP port availability.

> We need to keep the per location monthly communication cost low, such as
> below $100 per location per month.

> My thinking thus far from the data I have been able to gather:

> Dedicated lines seem too expensive for this application (I understand
> these to be > $300 month cost).

> DSL not available in all areas and is expensive for business ($40/mo to
> PacBell, + $200/mo to PacBell Internet Service).

> V90 modem on-demand dial-up: call setup time is too great and the user
> would likely experience a ~1 minute delay waiting for the response.
> Also, without dedicated ISP access, the call may fail due to busy line.

> ISDN: Maybe? What can you expect for call setup time?

> Any ideas here would be greatly appreciated.

> -Mike

ISDN call setup schould be about 3 seconds. Anyhow the application you
have in mind is a typical packet-switcheing application; many calls, but
only litle data per call an altogheter, need for very fast call setup.
So might be X.25 or frame relay might be a good idea. For you do not
need the high capacity of frame relay and X.25 is still more available
(as far as I know) that could be a way for you.
On X.25 typical call setup time is faster than ISDN setup time, it
schould be about 1 second.

Best greetings - Jochen Klein
www.servonic.com

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Dan Woolle » Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:00:00




> > We are exploring an application where there are many single dedicated
> > internet terminals (basically a kiosk) distributed though out various
> > locations around the country. Each terminal must have a communications
> > link to a host server, either through the internet, or by making a
> > direct call to the host server. The usage model is that a user would be
> > able to randomly query a database located on a host server and get a
> > response which takes no longer than the typical web page download (10-15
> > seconds or so). It is very important that the response time to the query
> > be quite fast.

> > It is expected that each terminal would make between 50-100 queries per
> > day. Each query results in the server returning either a small web page
> > or a small packet of data (maybe a few K bytes) depending on
> > implementation specifics. So the key here is not the data transfer time,
> > but rather the call set-up time and ISP port availability.

> > We need to keep the per location monthly communication cost low, such as
> > below $100 per location per month.

> > My thinking thus far from the data I have been able to gather:

> > Dedicated lines seem too expensive for this application (I understand
> > these to be > $300 month cost).

> > DSL not available in all areas and is expensive for business ($40/mo to
> > PacBell, + $200/mo to PacBell Internet Service).

> > V90 modem on-demand dial-up: call setup time is too great and the user
> > would likely experience a ~1 minute delay waiting for the response.
> > Also, without dedicated ISP access, the call may fail due to busy line.

> > ISDN: Maybe? What can you expect for call setup time?

> > Any ideas here would be greatly appreciated.

> > -Mike

> ISDN call setup schould be about 3 seconds. Anyhow the application you
> have in mind is a typical packet-switcheing application; many calls, but
> only litle data per call an altogheter, need for very fast call setup.
> So might be X.25 or frame relay might be a good idea. For you do not
> need the high capacity of frame relay and X.25 is still more available
> (as far as I know) that could be a way for you.
> On X.25 typical call setup time is faster than ISDN setup time, it
> schould be about 1 second.

Are we moving toward AO/DI on D Channel? Perhaps the application would require more bandwith than 'D' but if not would give the benefit of fixed monthly costs.

Here in the UK we are just starting to see BT roll-out their ISDNconnect service so are very interested in 'real' application stories.

Dan

--
Activator UK
http://www.activator-uk.net
Tel: 0118 972 0215
Fax: 0118 972 1911

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Jochen Kle » Thu, 04 Feb 1999 04:00:00


Quote:> > ISDN call setup schould be about 3 seconds. Anyhow the application you
> > have in mind is a typical packet-switcheing application; many calls, but
> > only litle data per call an altogheter, need for very fast call setup.
> > So might be X.25 or frame relay might be a good idea. For you do not
> > need the high capacity of frame relay and X.25 is still more available
> > (as far as I know) that could be a way for you.
> > On X.25 typical call setup time is faster than ISDN setup time, it
> > schould be about 1 second.

> Are we moving toward AO/DI on D Channel? Perhaps the application would require more bandwith than 'D' but if not would give the benefit of fixed monthly costs.

Sorry, I do not knwo what AO/DI means. Can you give a short explaination
for these shortcuts.

Quote:

> Here in the UK we are just starting to see BT roll-out their ISDNconnect service so are very interested in 'real' application stories.

Which kind of real applications do you mean? There are so many, end to
end data transmission, connecting (by a router) to ISP, telephony based
applications which make use of primary ISDN and CST servives, fax
sending/receiveing with inbound roting by ISDN DID, video
conferenceing...

Jochen Klein
www.servonic.com

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Dan Woolle » Thu, 04 Feb 1999 04:00:00



> > > ISDN call setup schould be about 3 seconds. Anyhow the application you
> > > have in mind is a typical packet-switcheing application; many calls, but
> > > only litle data per call an altogheter, need for very fast call setup.
> > > So might be X.25 or frame relay might be a good idea. For you do not
> > > need the high capacity of frame relay and X.25 is still more available
> > > (as far as I know) that could be a way for you.
> > > On X.25 typical call setup time is faster than ISDN setup time, it
> > > schould be about 1 second.

> > Are we moving toward AO/DI on D Channel? Perhaps the application would require more bandwith than 'D' but if not would give the benefit of fixed monthly costs.
> Sorry, I do not knwo what AO/DI means. Can you give a short explaination
> for these shortcuts.

Always On/Dynamic ISDN: "The basic idea of AO/DI is that an ISDN D channel X.25 call is placed from the user to the Internet service provider. The multi-link
protocol and TCP/IP protocols are encapsulated within the X.25 logical circuit within the D channel data" - http://www.virtualaccess.com

Essentially,  ISDN Router connected to ISDN with D Channel.  ISP/Intranet/Extranet/Host trickles information to remote network via D Channel with the ability pull up
one or two B Channels as and when required.

Quote:> > > Here in the UK we are just starting to see BT roll-out their ISDNconnect service so are very interested in 'real' application stories.

> Which kind of real applications do you mean? There are so many, end to end data transmission, connecting (by a router) to ISP, telephony based applications which
> make use of primary ISDN and CST servives, fax sending/receiveing with inbound roting by ISDN DID, video conferenceing...

Errr, that's what I was asking...  In the UK, live applications consist of alarm monitoring, and information boards at bus-stops in the London area. As BT have only
rolled their 'ISDNconnect' service out to the '0171' and '0181' telephone exchanges (London) we have yet to see any take-up of the service.  The other big problem is
that the service has been so 'hyped' over the last few years whilst remaining firmly in the 'vapourware' category.  Only now do we have clear visibility of a real
service.

--
Activator UK - Delivering the D-Channel with Zero-Touch Routing
http://www.activator-uk.net
Tel: 0118 972 0215
Fax: 0118 972 1911

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by earle robinso » Thu, 04 Feb 1999 04:00:00


France tlcom is planning on offering ao/di service later this year.  Price is likely to be 80 francs or so, i.e. 7.5 pounds in  your currency.

 -er


> Always On/Dynamic ISDN: "The basic idea of AO/DI is that an ISDN D channel X.25 call is placed from the user to the Internet service provider. The multi-link
> protocol and TCP/IP protocols are encapsulated within the X.25 logical circuit within the D channel data" - http://www.virtualaccess.com

> Essentially,  ISDN Router connected to ISDN with D Channel.  ISP/Intranet/Extranet/Host trickles information to remote network via D Channel with the ability pull up
> one or two B Channels as and when required.

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Jochen Kle » Fri, 05 Feb 1999 04:00:00




> > > > ISDN call setup schould be about 3 seconds. Anyhow the application you
> > > > have in mind is a typical packet-switcheing application; many calls, but
> > > > only litle data per call an altogheter, need for very fast call setup.
> > > > So might be X.25 or frame relay might be a good idea. For you do not
> > > > need the high capacity of frame relay and X.25 is still more available
> > > > (as far as I know) that could be a way for you.
> > > > On X.25 typical call setup time is faster than ISDN setup time, it
> > > > schould be about 1 second.

> > > Are we moving toward AO/DI on D Channel? Perhaps the application would require more bandwith than 'D' but if not would give the benefit of fixed monthly costs.
> > Sorry, I do not knwo what AO/DI means. Can you give a short explaination
> > for these shortcuts.

> Always On/Dynamic ISDN: "The basic idea of AO/DI is that an ISDN D channel X.25 call is placed from the user to the Internet service provider. The multi-link
> protocol and TCP/IP protocols are encapsulated within the X.25 logical circuit within the D channel data" - http://www.virtualaccess.com

I see! As far as I understand it is nothing else than X.31 variant B,
which means X.25 in ISDN D-channel. But this has nothing to do with an
ISP. Well it CAN be used for ISP connection ofcourse, but in the
scenario that was aksed a end to end X.32/X.25 connection would make
more sense than
PC->X.31_ISDN->ISP->IP->remote_ISP->X.31_ISDN->remote_PC.
In our company we are using X.31 since a few years, just to have a
normal connection to the public, worldwide  X.25 network. If youd like

and you can tryout dial in with X.25/X.29 form out any public X.25
network, directly.

Quote:> Essentially,  ISDN Router connected to ISDN with D Channel.  ISP/Intranet/Extranet/Host trickles information to remote network via D Channel with the ability pull up
> one or two B Channels as and when required.

Yes, Ive heard of that but we are not using yet.

Quote:

> > > > Here in the UK we are just starting to see BT roll-out their ISDNconnect service so are very interested in 'real' application stories.

> > Which kind of real applications do you mean? There are so many, end to end data transmission, connecting (by a router) to ISP, telephony based applications which
> > make use of primary ISDN and CST servives, fax sending/receiveing with inbound roting by ISDN DID, video conferenceing...
> Errr, that's what I was asking...  

Sorry, I was not quiet sure if I understod your question right due to
litle language problems, have in midn english is not my native language
(I try to give my best). I was not sure if you askeing expecialy for
application for AO/DI (what as I understand it is X.31) or on ISDN based
applications in general. Have a look at www.capi.org - list of complaint
products - software, there are listed some different kinds of ISDN
applications, however as far as I remember there is not to much dealing
with X.31.

Best greetings - Jochen Klein
www.servonic.com

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Laurence V. Mar » Mon, 15 Feb 1999 04:00:00



>I see! As far as I understand it is nothing else than X.31 variant B,
>which means X.25 in ISDN D-channel. But this has nothing to do with an
>ISP. Well it CAN be used for ISP connection ofcourse, but in the
>scenario that was aksed a end to end X.32/X.25 connection would make
>more sense than
>PC->X.31_ISDN->ISP->IP->remote_ISP->X.31_ISDN->remote_PC.
>In our company we are using X.31 since a few years, just to have a
>normal connection to the public, worldwide  X.25 network. If youd like

>and you can tryout dial in with X.25/X.29 form out any public X.25
>network, directly.

Not exactly, Jochen.  AO/DI starts with X.25 in the D-kanal, but uses
Multilink Protocol and adds one and then a second B-channel to the
connection whenever bandwidth need justify it.  Think of an constant email
feed on the D-kanal, but when you begin heavy web browsing, one or both Bs
get added, then dropped when the need falls.

Laurence V. Marks
IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Jochen Kle » Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:00:00




> >I see! As far as I understand it is nothing else than X.31 variant B,
> >which means X.25 in ISDN D-channel. But this has nothing to do with an
> >ISP. Well it CAN be used for ISP connection ofcourse, but in the
> >scenario that was aksed a end to end X.32/X.25 connection would make
> >more sense than
> >PC->X.31_ISDN->ISP->IP->remote_ISP->X.31_ISDN->remote_PC.
> >In our company we are using X.31 since a few years, just to have a
> >normal connection to the public, worldwide  X.25 network. If youd like

> >and you can tryout dial in with X.25/X.29 form out any public X.25
> >network, directly.

> Not exactly, Jochen.  AO/DI starts with X.25 in the D-kanal, but uses
> Multilink Protocol and adds one and then a second B-channel to the
> connection whenever bandwidth need justify it.  Think of an constant email
> feed on the D-kanal, but when you begin heavy web browsing, one or both Bs
> get added, then dropped when the need falls.

> Laurence V. Marks
> IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC

I see. But isnt it that the application (on a CAPI complaint ISDN card)
or a standalone device (router) is responsible for the DI? The ISDN
network itsselfe just offers 1 x D-Chan and 2 x B-Chan thats it and
than the application or device has to decide when the 9.6 KBps are nmot
sufficient and than setup a B-Channel connection.
So that means I am using X.31 (=X.25 in ISDN D-Chan) and if I relaize
that I need more abndwidth I establishe a B-Channel to the same
destionation I already have the X.31 connection and than multiplex the
data-streamm over both channels.

So on the ISDN network side AO/DI just means your provider offers X.31.

Is it as I described or is there a special feature in the ISDN netowrk
its slefe (I cant imagine)?

Would be nice if you could help me again. Thanx ind advance!

Jochen Klein
www.servonic.com

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Laurence V. Mar » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>> Not exactly, Jochen.  AO/DI starts with X.25 in the D-kanal, but uses
>> Multilink Protocol and adds one and then a second B-channel to the
>> connection whenever bandwidth need justify it.  Think of an constant email
>> feed on the D-kanal, but when you begin heavy web browsing, one or both Bs
>> get added, then dropped when the need falls.

>I see. But isnt it that the application (on a CAPI complaint ISDN card)
>or a standalone device (router) is responsible for the DI? The ISDN
>network itsselfe just offers 1 x D-Chan and 2 x B-Chan thats it and
>than the application or device has to decide when the 9.6 KBps are nmot
>sufficient and than setup a B-Channel connection.
>So that means I am using X.31 (=X.25 in ISDN D-Chan) and if I relaize
>that I need more abndwidth I establishe a B-Channel to the same
>destionation I already have the X.31 connection and than multiplex the
>data-streamm over both channels.

Yes, nothing special required in the hardware.  You could implement AO/DI
in the intel CPU using the typical shallow German card and CAPI.  The telco
has to do nothing more than offer X.31.  The changes are in the user's code
(to add multilink on D and Bs) and similar change at the ISP to do the
same thing.

Quote:>So on the ISDN network side AO/DI just means your provider offers X.31.

Right.

Quote:>Is it as I described or is there a special feature in the ISDN netowrk
>its slefe (I cant imagine)?

No.

Quote:>Would be nice if you could help me again. Thanx ind advance!

Jochen, your English is quite good, but note that CAPI-compliant is not the
same as CAPI-complaint.  The first one means conformant.  The second one
means expressing displeasure, something some American developer do about
CAPI.  :-)))

Laurence V. Marks
IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC

 
 
 

Help: Best communication method?

Post by Jochen Kle » Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:00:00




> >> Not exactly, Jochen.  AO/DI starts with X.25 in the D-kanal, but uses
> >> Multilink Protocol and adds one and then a second B-channel to the
> >> connection whenever bandwidth need justify it.  Think of an constant email
> >> feed on the D-kanal, but when you begin heavy web browsing, one or both Bs
> >> get added, then dropped when the need falls.

> >I see. But isnt it that the application (on a CAPI complaint ISDN card)
> >or a standalone device (router) is responsible for the DI? The ISDN
> >network itsselfe just offers 1 x D-Chan and 2 x B-Chan thats it and
> >than the application or device has to decide when the 9.6 KBps are nmot
> >sufficient and than setup a B-Channel connection.
> >So that means I am using X.31 (=X.25 in ISDN D-Chan) and if I relaize
> >that I need more abndwidth I establishe a B-Channel to the same
> >destionation I already have the X.31 connection and than multiplex the
> >data-streamm over both channels.

> Yes, nothing special required in the hardware.  You could implement AO/DI
> in the intel CPU using the typical shallow German card and CAPI.  The telco
> has to do nothing more than offer X.31.  The changes are in the user's code
> (to add multilink on D and Bs) and similar change at the ISP to do the
> same thing.

> >So on the ISDN network side AO/DI just means your provider offers X.31.

> Right.

> >Is it as I described or is there a special feature in the ISDN netowrk
> >its slefe (I cant imagine)?

> No.

> >Would be nice if you could help me again. Thanx ind advance!

> Jochen, your English is quite good, but note that CAPI-compliant is not the
> same as CAPI-complaint.  The first one means conformant.  The second one
> means expressing displeasure, something some American developer do about
> CAPI.  :-)))

> Laurence V. Marks
> IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC

First thanxfor the complete and good explanation, form which I have
learned that word "AO/DI" which is heard very oftten now jsut means the
ISDN provider has to offer X.31. Well now abaout AO/DI everything is
clear to me. Before I got the explanation form you I was wondering what
that thing is, now I am wondering why intruducing a new acronym for a
thing which has already a well knwon, international standard (ITU) name.

Well according my english language skills: Thanx for your hint, pls.
forgive me for that (for a english native speaking person) funny
mistkate. Anyhow might be it brought a litle fun in the technical
discussion :-)

But why do some Americans express displeasure about CAPI? I think its a
good thing, it just covers the ISDN basic I/O, offers protocolls up to
layer 3, gives you the freedom of choice of the card type and
manufacturer and everything else, let it be NDIS driver, video
conference, IVR,... can be built on top of that API and and will run of
every device supporting CAPI.


P.S.: Hope I did not make to many mistakes and if, they are funny.

 
 
 

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8. upgrade hardware to run S-Plus

9. best method possible?

10. QoS question - which method is best...

11. Advice Wanted about best methods and products

12. best method to test 3661

13. What's the best method to add B channels to a PRI setup?