ISP can tell it's a router???

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Wayne Darin » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



I have an ISDN line run to my house, and they're hooking it up Weds.
I called Earthlink to change my account to ISDN today.  The rep said
although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you
used a router was to hide the network from the ISP.  So this guy is
telling me all I can use (with this account) is an ISDN 'modem'??
Thanks for the help.

Wayne Darinzo

Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
end of my address

 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Mark Cooperste » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



>I have an ISDN line run to my house, and they're hooking it up Weds.
>I called Earthlink to change my account to ISDN today.  The rep said
>although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
>will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you
>used a router was to hide the network from the ISP.  So this guy is
>telling me all I can use (with this account) is an ISDN 'modem'??
>Thanks for the help.

>Wayne Darinzo

>Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
>end of my address

they cannot tell it's a router or a terminal adapter. I think maybe they'd
like you to think that they can, to discourage you from "sharing" the isdn
line, which is what a router using NAT allows you to do.  This basically means
that you can have many people simultaneously using the same ISP connection.  
But, why shouldn't you? You're paying for the line, and it's none of their
business how you load it up imo.

Now, a router can be hooked up such that it has several IP's that are assigned
to it from your ISP.  In this case, you don't use NAT, and the ISP will
usually charge you extra for a dedicated IP, let alone a "pool" of IP's.  
Maybe this is what they thought you were asking for.

**  Remove ".nospam" when replying or email will bounce back to you...

 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by ben.. » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



> although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
> will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you

they cannot find out if it's a router you use or not. also, in order to use
ISDN,'ll have to use a TA. so if both a router _and_ TA are forbidden, ow
would you access the ISP via ISDN ?

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ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Wayne Darin » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



>>I have an ISDN line run to my house, and they're hooking it up Weds.
>>I called Earthlink to change my account to ISDN today.  The rep said
>>although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
>>will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you
>>used a router was to hide the network from the ISP.  So this guy is
>>telling me all I can use (with this account) is an ISDN 'modem'??
>>Thanks for the help.

>>Wayne Darinzo

>>Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
>>end of my address

>they cannot tell it's a router or a terminal adapter. I think maybe they'd
>like you to think that they can, to discourage you from "sharing" the isdn
>line, which is what a router using NAT allows you to do.  This basically means
>that you can have many people simultaneously using the same ISP connection.  
>But, why shouldn't you? You're paying for the line, and it's none of their
>business how you load it up imo.

>Now, a router can be hooked up such that it has several IP's that are assigned
>to it from your ISP.  In this case, you don't use NAT, and the ISP will
>usually charge you extra for a dedicated IP, let alone a "pool" of IP's.  
>Maybe this is what they thought you were asking for.

I use a Netgear RM356, which is 56k, but all the network (NAT)
principles apply.  This same guy had no idea what equipment they were
using on their end, either.

Wayne Darinzo

Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
end of my address

 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Jon Sundquis » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00



> they cannot tell it's a router or a terminal adapter. I think maybe they'd
> like you to think that they can, to discourage you from "sharing" the isdn
> line, which is what a router using NAT allows you to do.  This basically means
> that you can have many people simultaneously using the same ISP connection.
> But, why shouldn't you? You're paying for the line, and it's none of their
> business how you load it up imo.

BA-north (NY) touts ISDN on their web page as a way to share access with
more than one computer on a home LAN.  But their DSL policy is for use
on one computer only.  Go figure....

At least last time I checked.

Jon Sundquist

 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Vernon Schryv » Tue, 02 Feb 1999 04:00:00




> ...
>they cannot tell it's a router or a terminal adapter....

In general and in theory, that is false, allthough it is true in
practice almost all of the time.

There are proprietary PPP handshakes that some brands of boxes use to
recognize each other so that they can do proprietary things.  There are
also the RFC 1570 Identification packets which are explicitly designed to
communicate everything about a box.  Besides those explicit PPP mechanisms,
if you've stared at enough PPP packet traces, you can often recognize the
distinctive orders and choices of LCP options and so on of various vendors.
Then there are probes you can do with higher layer protocols.  For example,
if the box answers on UPD port 520 or fails to send a port-unreachable
error in response to a probe, it's might be a router.  TCP port 23 is
another indicator.  There is also the panoply of SNMP MIBs.

Of course, all of those require more knowledge of how the stuff
works than ISPs can afford to hire in operators.
--


 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Craig Wiesne » Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:00:00


Wayne,

I've seen the other answers but just wanted to add one more. An ISDN
router will give a single computer, in many cases, better performance
than an ISDN modem, which by the way, is a TA. The term modem is
used because it is less technoid than modem. Earthlink should not care
what you are connecting to the ISDN line and if they do, you should
dump them as an ISP.

The key difference about which they can and should care is whether
you get one or more IP addresses assigned to you. They have complete
control over that - you only get one. The other concern they might have
is whether you are trying to host a web site through your connection.
Since they are probably only giving you a dynamic IP address, and
you only have an ISDN line, and it will not be up all the time (probably),

they have nothing to fear.

FYI - my company has written training courses for several major router
vendors and one of the key selling points of ISDN routers is that users
can share a single dial-up account with an ISP.

Good luck with the installation. Earthlink is a good ISP (we have one
emergency account with them in case our primary account fails).

Craig Wiesner - WKMN Training - InternetWorking Education Specialists
http://www.wkmn.com/refer.html     Buy LAN books, feed the homeless!!


> I have an ISDN line run to my house, and they're hooking it up Weds.
> I called Earthlink to change my account to ISDN today.  The rep said
> although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
> will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you
> used a router was to hide the network from the ISP.  So this guy is
> telling me all I can use (with this account) is an ISDN 'modem'??
> Thanks for the help.

> Wayne Darinzo

> Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
> end of my address

 
 
 

ISP can tell it's a router???

Post by Mike Mille » Thu, 04 Feb 1999 04:00:00


You did go look for a better ISP didn't you?

Sounds like, and looks like from their web pages, that their goal is
one thing.  To get as much money from you for as little service as
possible.  First off you use a terminal adapter to use ISDN.  If you
use a router it has an ISDN TA built in.  With the exception of the
combination units an ISDN modem is what the clueless call a
terminal adapter.  So not only do they want to give you as little
service as they can they also employ marketing reps that are
clueless (when he told you that you can not use a terminal adpater).
It is possible, but hard, to tell if your using a router.  Things like
SNMP
will give it away.  Addtionaly they sound just the folks to put a packet
sniffer on you to watch your traffic.  They also quote you 100 channel
hours(or 50 hours at 128K).  While this is becomming more common
it often is overlooked by ISPs as long as you don't abuse to too much
or at "prime" time.  I would HIGHLY suggest you look for better
access.


> I have an ISDN line run to my house, and they're hooking it up Weds.
> I called Earthlink to change my account to ISDN today.  The rep said
> although the access is dual channel, if I try to use a router or TA, I
> will be "bumped off".  What gives???  I thought one of the reasons you
> used a router was to hide the network from the ISP.  So this guy is
> telling me all I can use (with this account) is an ISDN 'modem'??
> Thanks for the help.

> Wayne Darinzo

> Reply to: Please add 'net' to the
> end of my address

 
 
 

1. ISP *can* tell how many boxes you have behind your router

Those who were sure that ISPs could not figure out how many machines are
behind a NAT device should check out Steve Bellovin's paper from the Second
Internet Measurement Workshop.  Story and link on slashdot.

Summary: most OSes put things in the IP header that make it easy to tell
when packets are coming from different machines behind NAT.

--
Evidence Eliminator is worthless: "www.evidence-eliminator-sucks.com"
--Tim Smith

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