Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Sven Guck » Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:00:00



http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html
Created:     Tue Oct  1 00:00:00 MET  1996
Last update: Wed Jun 17 20:20:20 CEST 1998

                          MUTT vs ELM - a comparison

  Or: Why MUTT is better than ELM

   This comparison was made for mutt-0.67 [released 970321] and
   ELM2.5PL25. Since then, only a few things were added, mostly features
   that elm never had at all. So I didn't change much of it. As a matter
   of fact, I didn't update this page within the first half of 1998. Now
   that there is the newsgroup comp.mail.mutt the traffic on
   comp.mail.elm seems to be about reuqests for special features patches
   and the usual answers about bugs and patches. [980617]

   When I last updated this page, the latest version of mutt was
   "mutt-0.88". For recent changes please take a look at the mutt history
   which has links to the latest ChangeLogs describing new and changed
   features.

   To sum it up, there "feature score" of this comparison is:
                        MUTT:  51
                        ELM:    6

   If you don't want to read the whole document then you might want to
   see the summary at the end of this document right away.

   Or jump directly to these sections:

   MUTT++:

   Commands | Display | Configuration | Mail Composition | Viewing |
   Pager | Folder Management | Miscellaneous

   MUTT+

   ELM+

   If you find any bugs or if you just disagree with some of the
   statements in this list then PLEASE let me know! Send me Email: Sven
   Guckes guc...@math.fu-berlin.de
     _________________________________________________________________

  MUTT++

   Features that MUTT has and ELM does not - probably even with the next
   version (if there ever will be one at all).

  Commands

   MUTT++: Commands for POP
          MUTT features commands to get and send mails via the Post
          Office Protocol (POP). The commands are quite basic, but
          someone is working on a menu to display remote folders and to
          allow getting tagged messages.
          ELM does not have support for POP. [But you can always use an
          external POP client, of course.]
          [970404]

   MUTT++: Command jump-new / jump-unread
          MUTT can automatically jump to "undone" mail after opening a
          folder - so you can start off with either the first "new" or
          the first "unread" mail.
          ELM only jumps to the first *New* mail and only after opening a
          folder.

   MUTT+: Command reply - keeps comment in Reply-To
          MUTT keeps the comment field given with a Reply-To line.
          ELM drops the comment field with replies. BUG!
          [961220]

   MUTT++: Command quit - Quit command can be aborted
          MUTT allows to abort the quit command. And you can configure
          whether Mutt should give a prompt with it.
          ELM does not allow to abort the quit command - you have to
          answer the questions (if they are not auto-answered) and ELM
          *will* quit after that. This is especially annoying when you
          accidentally hit the 'q' key.
          [961130]

   MUTT++: Command - prompt for foldername - Filename expansion
          MUTT expands filenames (and directory names) in filename
          prompts (eg when changing the folder or chosing a file for
          attachment) when you press TAB; for ambiguous completion it
          will complete the unambiguous part. It does not show a list of
          matching filename when you use '*' in the filename, though.
          This should improve much with a builtin file selector.
          ELM allows the use of the wildchar '*' in filenames and will
          print a list of matching filenames. You cannot select an item
          from the resulting list, though. (The '*' is the only wildchar
          - you cannot enter a regular expression.)

   MUTT++: Command - sort method "threading"
          MUTT can sort the mails by its dependencies as given by the
          References: line. and also propagates them.
          ELM does not do threading and does not propagate the
          References: line (but ELM2.5 will eventually).
          [960921]

   MUTT++: Command - URL extraction menu
          MUTT has a command that takes all URLs from a mail and presents
          you with a menu to select an URL from; the URL is then sent to
          your web browser for opening. The kind of URLs to extract can
          be customized by a regular expression (variable "url_regexpr");
          the default value extracts http and ftp addresses, including
          mailtos.
          ELM does not have such a command. (But I am sure that it could
          be done by piping the mail to a script.)
          [960925]

   MUTT++: Command - mails - Detection of aborted edit sessions
          MUTT detects that the temporary file has not changed after the
          editor exited and thus will automatically abort the mail
          command (mail/reply/forward). Configurable via the variable
          "abort_unmodified".
          ELM will always present the send-menu - even if the letter is
          empty. There is not warning, either.
          [960918]

   MUTT++: Command - Reply and forward of selected mails
          MUTT allows to "reply" and "forward" of all selected (tagged)
          mails.
          ELM offers "reply" and "forward" only for the current mail.

   MUTT++: Command "enter-command" - internal command line
          MUTT has a command line that allow to change the value of a
          variable. Thus you can change values without having to leave
          the folder.
          ELM does not have a command line. You can only change the
          values that are given in the options menu. Changing an internal
          value that is not in the options menu required you to exit ELM,
          change *the* setup file (you cannot specify another) and start
          ELM again on the same folder. This can take a lot of time -
          especially on large folders.

   MUTT++: Command "flag-message" ('F')
          MUTT allows to flag messages permanently across invocations.
          Thus you can give mails an extra status, eg "todo".
          ELM does not have a command to give an extra mark to mails.
          Once a mail is "read" it is kept that way. This seems like a
          good idea but sometimes is a pain in the you-know.

   MUTT++: Command "search" - search string editing
          MUTT allows to edit the search string - ELM does not. MUTT also
          gives error messages for invalid regular expressions (eg for no
          closed parentheses and brackets). You can also recall previous
          search strings and search backward.
          ELM does not allow search string editing - unless you add
          something like GNU's "readline library".
          [970909]

  Display

   MUTT++: Display - Tree of nested attachments
          MUTT displays a dependency tree of nested attachments.
          ELM does not display attachments at all.
          [970404]

   MUTT++: Display - Main Menu - always shows the status flags in all
          folders
          MUTT shows the mail status not only for the mailbox, but for
          all folders. Not only does it show the stati New, Old,
          to-Delete and tagged (standard), but also for replied mails
          (r), mails containing a PGP key (K), PGP encrypted (P) or
          signed (S) data, and multipart mails (M), and a '!' for
          "important" mails which you can set yourself and which gets
          preserved on folder updates.
          ELM shows the mail status only for the mailbox.
          [961219]

   MUTT++: Display - Send Menu - always show the most important header
          lines
          MUTT always shows the header lines To:, Cc:, Bcc:, and Subject:
          for the outbound letter - no need to switch to a header menu.
          ELM does not display the headers of the outbound mail. To see
          or change these header lines you need to switch from the send
          menu to the header menu first. And you must switch back to the
          send menu when you are done.
          [961127]

   MUTT++: Display - Highly configurable
          MUTT allows configuration of the display of the index menu to
          suit users' needs.
          ELM does not allow you to change the display of the index.

   MUTT++: Display - Color support
          MUTT allows assigning colors to parts of the mail. (using
          suitable curses library).
          ELM only has support for highlighting. ;-)

  Configuration

   MUTT++: Configuration - list of inboxes, check for new mail
          MUTT allows to define a list of "inboxes", ie folders which
          receive new mail automatically, eg from mailing lists. This
          list [variable "mailboxes"] is checked for new mail when you
          use the "change_folder" command and the first folder with new
          mail is automatically presented.
          ELM checks for new mail only if the current folder is the
          mailbox, ie the folder pointed at with MAIL.
          [970404]

   MUTT++: Configuration - define default answers
          MUTT allows to define a default answer and prompt you for it.
          ELM only allows to autoanswer a question but you cannot set
          have ELM prompt you with a different default answer.
          [970323]

   MUTT++: Configuration - header weeding control
          MUTT allows to specify a list of header lines you want to see
          with the mails in your pager. You specify to "ignore *" (all
          lines) and then which lines to "unignore". Thus you will always
          get to see the lines you really
...

read more »

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Brandon Lon » Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:00:00


On 06/17/98 Sven Guckes uttered the following other thing:

>   ELM+

>    Features that ELM has and MUTT does not or where ELM is better.

>    ELM+: Command 'c' - changing folders by alias name


>           MUTT can show you a complete list of folders as a menu - but it

>           [961218]

There is actually a patch for this for some of the latest dev releases,
not sure why it hasn't been included.  In addition to the above, it also
will use mutt's save-hooks to look-up the address the alias expands to
to find the folder to use, and works anywhere you can use a foldername.

Quote:>    ELM+: Command 'e' - folder editing
>           ELM allows to edit the current folder. (This is a compile time
>           option.) *Can* be useful when some wacky mailer screws up a
>           message particularly well but it also can be *very* confusing
>           to newbies. The plus is that ELM will do a resync of the folder
>           after editing.
>           MUTT does not allow folder editing while it is running. It's a
>           philosophy thing. "Use an editor for that!" Anyone familiar
>           with editing folders will probably know enough to make sure
>           that incoming mail won't write over the edited file.

There is a patch that does this really nicely (by loading the message
into the compose menu, allowing you to edit the message, re-send it, or
save it back, including deleting attachments, adding new attachments,
etc).

Quote:>    ELM+: Usenet - Special Newsgroup
>           ELM has its own newsgroup: comp.mail.elm
>           MUTT does not have a newsgroup of its own. You should direct
>           questions to comp.mail.misc and comp.mail.elm instead. Btw,
>           MUTT has two very active mailing lists - "muttusers" for
>           general help, and "muttdev" dor development. About 350 users
>           subscribed [970308].
>           Many more have subscribed to the mutt mailing lists since March
>           1997. So in 1998 there will be a RFD (request for discussion)
>           for creation of the group "comp.mail.mutt", though; please see
>           the group comp.groups about this.

This is comp.mail.mutt, isn't it?

Brandon
--
 Brandon Long             "Would a precognitive telepath know what you
 MD6 Crash Test Dummy         were thinking before you thought it?"
 Intel Corporation                 -- Sherry M. Gottlieb
          I'm too low on the totem pole to speak for Intel.
                  http://www.fiction.net/blong/

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Navindra Umane » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00


At one point in *spacetime,


> http://www.veryComputer.com/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html
> Created:     Tue Oct  1 00:00:00 MET  1996
> Last update: Wed Jun 17 20:20:20 CEST 1998

>                           MUTT vs ELM - a comparison

>   Or: Why MUTT is better than ELM

Hey, Elm sucks.  Why not compare with Pine or MS Outlook or
something? :)

Navin

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Dave Pears » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:>    MUTT++: Command - URL extraction menu
>           MUTT has a command that takes all URLs from a mail and presents
>           you with a menu to select an URL from; the URL is then sent to
>           your web browser for opening. The kind of URLs to extract can
>           be customized by a regular expression (variable "url_regexpr");
>           the default value extracts http and ftp addresses, including
>           mailtos.
>           ELM does not have such a command. (But I am sure that it could
>           be done by piping the mail to a script.)
>           [960925]

[I know you probably know but I thought I'd mention it] mutt no longer has
the URL menu (as part of the distribution, someone does maintain it as a
patch) but instead uses the external urlview utility. So, assuming that elm
can make use of urlview as well I guess they both have this ability.

Quote:>    ELM+: Usenet - Special Newsgroup
>           ELM has its own newsgroup: comp.mail.elm
>           MUTT does not have a newsgroup of its own.

I guess I don't need to say that this is out of date (considering where I
read this <g>).

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: | mutt.octet.filter - autoview octet-streams
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ | mutt.vcard.filter - autoview simple vcards
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ | muttrc2html       - muttrc -> HTML utility
Free software, including........| muttrc.sl         - Jed muttrc mode

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Sven Guck » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:> >    MUTT++: Command - URL extraction menu
> [I know you probably know but I thought I'd mention it] mutt no longer has
> the URL menu (as part of the distribution, someone does maintain it as a
> patch) but instead uses the external urlview utility.

Indeed - I forgot to update that part of the comparison.
Fixed:

MUTT+: Command - urlview
        MUTT is accompanied by the utility program "urlview" which extracts
        URLs (configurable regexpr) from any text, esp emails, and offers to
        send an "open URL" command to your favourite web browser.  The default
        value for the regexpr should suffice for most kinds of http and ftp
        addresses, including mailtos.
        ELM could use this utility, too, of course.  You just have to pipe the
        current mail to urlview.  But then you always have to *type* that
        command.  With MUTT you'd just bind a command to a key.

Quote:> So, assuming that elm
> can make use of urlview as well I guess they both have this ability.

> >    ELM+: Usenet - Special Newsgroup
> >           ELM has its own newsgroup: comp.mail.elm
> >           MUTT does not have a newsgroup of its own.
> I guess I don't need to say that this is out of date
> (considering where I read this <g>).

Oops again!  Well, one down for ELM.  Sor-reee!  hehe

Sven

--

MUTT WOOF!,,  http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/   with COLOR+PGP+POP
MUTT   (__/'. http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html Elm is dead!
MUTT   /| |\  Newsgroup: comp.mail.mutt | Latest release: mutt-0.91.1i [98????]

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Sven Guck » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:> At one point in *spacetime, ..

"kewl"


> >                           MUTT vs ELM - a comparison
> >   Or: Why MUTT is better than ELM
> Hey, Elm sucks.  Why not compare with Pine or MS Outlook or something? :)

Actually, I am still toying with the idea of taking up the maintenance of a
"Good Netkeeping Seal of Mailers" which evaluates the features email programs.
But then I simply *know* that mutt will be the winner.  ;-)

Sven  [who has used elm for years until there was mutt :-)]

--
http://www.veryComputer.com/~guckes/elm/
http://www.veryComputer.com/~guckes/mutt/

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Sven Guck » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:> >    ELM+: Command 'c' - changing folders by alias name
> There is actually a patch for this for some of the latest dev releases,
> not sure why it hasn't been included.  In addition to the above, it also
> will use mutt's save-hooks to look-up the address the alias expands to
> to find the folder to use, and works anywhere you can use a foldername.
> >    ELM+: Command 'e' - folder editing
> There is a patch that does this really nicely (by loading the message
> into the compose menu, allowing you to edit the message, re-send it, or
> save it back, including deleting attachments, adding new attachments,
> etc).
> >    ELM+: Usenet - Special Newsgroup
> This is comp.mail.mutt, isn't it?

I have updated all three items in the comparison.  Thanks for the pointers! :-)

Looks like ELM's pluses will go pretty soon:

The alias submenu might as well be coded into Mutt some day,
but I'd rather have a standalone utility (like urlview) for this,
that you could still use with Elm, too.  No, "elmalias" won't do.

The utility "readmsg" (of Elm) is nice, but should be enhanced a lot more
for use with Elm.  Anyone?


Editing of emails can also be done with a patch now.  Although this looks
like a dangerous feature for newbies, I am sure that many mutt folks want this.

And then there is the online documentation.  It could be a lot better.
How about adding some more examples with it?  I have lots of these here,
so I'd be glad if they could be shipped with Mutt.  Michael?

Anyway, once mutt goes beta, many sites will switch from elm to mutt.
That's for sure.

Sven

--

MUTT WOOF!,,  http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/   with COLOR+PGP+POP
MUTT   (__/'. http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html Elm is dead!
MUTT   /| |\  Newsgroup: comp.mail.mutt | Latest release: mutt-0.91.1i [98????]

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Navindra Umane » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



> Actually,   I am  still toying  with   the idea  of    taking up the
> maintenance  of a "Good Netkeeping  Seal of Mailers" which evaluates
> the  features email programs.   But then I  simply  *know* that mutt
> will be the winner.  ;-)

I suspect Gnus/{X,}Emacs could at least make a tie with it.  Well,
Mutt is less bloated for sure.

Navin

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Alan Schwar » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



>The utility "readmsg" (of Elm) is nice, but should be enhanced a lot more
>for use with Elm.  Anyone?

The key feature of readmsg that I miss in mutt is that in elm
I could tag 2 messages, start a new message and readmsg in the
tagged messages. This was very handy when trying to send 1 reply
to someone who'd sent multiple emails to me and including all
of their messages into my one reply message.

Is there a convenient way to do this in mutt? It's perhaps the only
features I miss from the old elm days.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Asst. Prof. of Clinical Decision Making | University of Illinois at Chicago
Adj. Asst. Prof. of Psychology          | Department of Medical Education
   "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Dave Pears » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



Quote:> The key feature of readmsg that I miss in mutt is that in elm I could tag
> 2 messages, start a new message and readmsg in the tagged messages. This
> was very handy when trying to send 1 reply to someone who'd sent multiple
> emails to me and including all of their messages into my one reply
> message.

> Is there a convenient way to do this in mutt? It's perhaps the only
> features I miss from the old elm days.

I do this all the time in mutt. Tag the messages, then use reply with the
tag prefix ";". In other words (with default bindings) hit "t" to tag each
message then ";r" to reply.

--
Take a look in Hagbard's World: | mutt.octet.filter - autoview octet-streams
http://www.acemake.com/hagbard/ | mutt.vcard.filter - autoview simple vcards
http://www.hagbard.demon.co.uk/ | muttrc2html       - muttrc -> HTML utility
Free software, including........| muttrc.sl         - Jed muttrc mode

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Brandon Lon » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00


On 06/18/98 Alan Schwartz uttered the following other thing:


> >The utility "readmsg" (of Elm) is nice, but should be enhanced a lot more
> >for use with Elm.  Anyone?

> The key feature of readmsg that I miss in mutt is that in elm
> I could tag 2 messages, start a new message and readmsg in the
> tagged messages. This was very handy when trying to send 1 reply
> to someone who'd sent multiple emails to me and including all
> of their messages into my one reply message.

> Is there a convenient way to do this in mutt? It's perhaps the only
> features I miss from the old elm days.

Can't you just do a tagged reply or forward?  Ie, tag the messages you
want, then hit the tag-prefix (default: ';') and then either reply
(default: 'r') or forward (default: 'f').  This will load all of the
messages into the reply (or forward).

Brandon
--
 Brandon Long             "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from
 MD6 Crash Test Dummy           doing what is right!"
 Intel Corporation                          -- Isaac Asimov
          I'm too low on the totem pole to speak for Intel.
                  http://www.fiction.net/blong/

 
 
 

Mutt vs ELM [980617]

Post by Thomas Roessl » Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:00:00



>The key feature of readmsg that I miss in mutt is that in
>elm I could tag 2 messages, start a new message and
>readmsg in the tagged messages. This was very handy when
>trying to send 1 reply to someone who'd sent multiple
>emails to me and including all of their messages into my
>one reply message.
>Is there a convenient way to do this in mutt? It's perhaps
>the only features I miss from the old elm days.

Tag both messages and "apply"-reply.

tlr
--
Thomas Roessler 74a353cc0b19 dg1ktr http://home.pages.de/~roessler/
     2048/CE6AC6C1 4E 04 F0 BC 72 FF 14 23 44 85 D1 A1 3B B0 73 C1

 
 
 

1. elm vs mutt revisited (Re: Is Elm development dead?)

[comp.mail.elm -> comp.mail.mutt]




You can change the look an feel on the main display with Mutt.  Try it!
And you can turn off the color, too. (But you cannot do this with Elm.)
So, I presume that color is not one of the reasons why you prefer Elm.

Which information on the main display disturbs you exactly?

Sven

--
Mutt gives you an *option*!

2. help on addresses wanted

3. From vs To: (elm vs mutt)

4. comp.cad.pro-engineer

5. Mush vs. Elm vs. MH vs. ...

6. ASUS CD-ROM S400 and UDMA

7. mutt (Re: Pine vs. Netscape/Elm)

8. Dvorak's latest book

9. Elm vs Mutt - user interface

10. PGP and elm and/or mutt (Was: PGP and elm)

11. UUCP vs MCI Mail vs AT&T Mail vs Compuserve vs ??

12. ELM vs PINE

13. Elm on a workstation vs Pop mail programs on micros