Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by MSMail Hat » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00



We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

I have a meeting with our IT leaders and the lan administrators of our
various departments in a week or so.  They are going to ask me
questions like:

If we were using either today, what would it cost us to add one user
to the system.  (can it be broken down like this?)

Of course we're doing the old NT vs. Netware debate as well, as well
as a server consolidation project that all play into this.  In all the
confusion I woudl think there would be one good paper on the web
somewhere that outlines the cost comparisons of the various groupware
packages in various scenarios.

Does anyone have *anything* at all on this?  Please help...


 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Paul Tayl » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00




> We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
> determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

> Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
> hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
> with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

> I have a meeting with our IT leaders and the lan administrators of our
> various departments in a week or so.  They are going to ask me
> questions like:

> If we were using either today, what would it cost us to add one user
> to the system.  (can it be broken down like this?)

> Of course we're doing the old NT vs. Netware debate as well, as well
> as a server consolidation project that all play into this.  In all the
> confusion I woudl think there would be one good paper on the web
> somewhere that outlines the cost comparisons of the various groupware
> packages in various scenarios.

> Does anyone have *anything* at all on this?  Please help...



I've just seen a reference to a Gartner Group report on just this subject,
found at www.novell.com/groupware apparently (not checked). It says that
Groupwise is cheaper, it would seem.....

Paul Taylor, Computer Systems Manager
WSP Consulting Engineers, Wimbledon, UK

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by MSMail Hat » Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:00:00


Yea, I saw that thing - wasn't real helpful to me.  I tend to take
anything I see on Novells or Microsofts web pages lightly regardless
of who commissioned what.  That thing basically explained how
confusing it is to come up with a comparison.





>> We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
>> determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

>> Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
>> hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
>> with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

>> I have a meeting with our IT leaders and the lan administrators of our
>> various departments in a week or so.  They are going to ask me
>> questions like:

>> If we were using either today, what would it cost us to add one user
>> to the system.  (can it be broken down like this?)

>> Of course we're doing the old NT vs. Netware debate as well, as well
>> as a server consolidation project that all play into this.  In all the
>> confusion I woudl think there would be one good paper on the web
>> somewhere that outlines the cost comparisons of the various groupware
>> packages in various scenarios.

>> Does anyone have *anything* at all on this?  Please help...


>I've just seen a reference to a Gartner Group report on just this subject,
>found at www.novell.com/groupware apparently (not checked). It says that
>Groupwise is cheaper, it would seem.....

>Paul Taylor, Computer Systems Manager
>WSP Consulting Engineers, Wimbledon, UK

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Michael Maha » Tue, 03 Feb 1998 04:00:00


I believe I also saw a release on the MS web site that pointed out errors
in the methodology used in the report that ranked Groupwise higher.  No
suprise there, either.  As far as independent reports, I haven't seen any.

michael



Quote:> Yea, I saw that thing - wasn't real helpful to me.  I tend to take
> anything I see on Novells or Microsofts web pages lightly regardless
> of who commissioned what.  That thing basically explained how
> confusing it is to come up with a comparison.

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Amiri Jone » Wed, 04 Feb 1998 04:00:00




Quote:> We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
> determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

> Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
> hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
> with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

        Some group called the Radicati (that's spelled correctly) Group did a
study of the two systems and found Groupwise to have the lower TCO.  Search
the web for the term Radicati to find their website.  The synopsis of their
study at the site threw around some figures, but there was ZERO DETAIL into
how those figures were derived.  The full text of the study is available
for purchase, but if I recall correctly, they wanted FOUR FIGURES(!!!) for
that thing.  Makes me wonder...
 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Tony Edwar » Fri, 06 Feb 1998 04:00:00


[This followup was posted to microsoft.public.exchange.admin and a copy
was sent to the cited author.]


says...

> We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
> determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

> Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
> hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
> with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

> I have a meeting with our IT leaders and the lan administrators of our
> various departments in a week or so.  They are going to ask me
> questions like:

> If we were using either today, what would it cost us to add one user
> to the system.  (can it be broken down like this?)

> Of course we're doing the old NT vs. Netware debate as well, as well
> as a server consolidation project that all play into this.  In all the
> confusion I woudl think there would be one good paper on the web
> somewhere that outlines the cost comparisons of the various groupware
> packages in various scenarios.

> Does anyone have *anything* at all on this?  Please help...



I don't know anything about Groupwise, but I think you should consider:

Nowadays, Exchange is a breeze to set up.  We actually don't want to be
Exchange gurus, and it seems we have succeeded, but can do just about
everything w/out reading manuals.

Exchange supports nearly all internet standards, including LDAP and IMAP,
POP, NNTP, etc...

Exchange has an incredibly powerful development environment, in which it
takes literally minutes to set up some pretty sophistocated apps using
Forms and/or custom folders.

If you need to go beyond simple Folder Customization/Form Design,
Exchange is programmable using a WIDE ARRAY of standard development tools
(such as Visual Basic, Visual C++, Java, etc..).  I am sure that
Groupwise cannot rival this.

In short, Groupwise may offer very nice canned functionality, but I would
be hard pressed to believe that it is as powerful/flexible, or that it is
much easier to set up and/or administer.  If it were an order of
magnitude cheaper  than Exchange, then that might be a consideration.

--

Tony Edwards
MicroPlanet, Inc.
http://www.microplanet.com

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Graeme Adams » Tue, 17 Feb 1998 04:00:00



> I don't know anything about Groupwise, but I think you should consider:

> Nowadays, Exchange is a breeze to set up.  We actually don't want to be
> Exchange gurus, and it seems we have succeeded, but can do just about
> everything w/out reading manuals.

> Exchange supports nearly all internet standards, including LDAP and IMAP,
> POP, NNTP, etc...

> Exchange has an incredibly powerful development environment, in which it
> takes literally minutes to set up some pretty sophistocated apps using
> Forms and/or custom folders.

> If you need to go beyond simple Folder Customization/Form Design,
> Exchange is programmable using a WIDE ARRAY of standard development tools
> (such as Visual Basic, Visual C++, Java, etc..).  I am sure that
> Groupwise cannot rival this.

> In short, Groupwise may offer very nice canned functionality, but I would
> be hard pressed to believe that it is as powerful/flexible, or that it is
> much easier to set up and/or administer.  If it were an order of
> magnitude cheaper  than Exchange, then that might be a consideration.

Coming from someone who has experience on Exchange since the betas, MS Mail,
Groupwise, and Notes:
Exchange has some major problems when it comes to data recovery. Since it
stores all mail for all users in a single file, PRIV.EDB, a small amount of
data corruption trashes the lot. Also, when a users mailbox is deleted
accidently (it happens sometimes), there's no simple way of recovering it.
With Groupwise, each user has a database, and all messages are also stored
in message databases. It's possible to delete all user databases and still
recreate them from the message databases, and vice versa. Message tracking
from the client is also pathetic compared to Groupwise - from Groupwise,
without doing anything extra, you can track when the message was sent, what
server it went to, when it was received, when it was opened, when it was
deleted or replied to.

Graeme

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Greg Aske » Tue, 17 Feb 1998 04:00:00


GroupWise recoverability issues are the same, if not worse than
Exchange.  Exchange can and does recover automatically in the
event of a server crash.  The majority of the time, this automatic
recovery is successful, and no-one ever knows. The recovery is
also very fast, and the damage from crashing is usually minimal.

The GroupWise domain/post office databases, on the other hand,
are guaranteed to be corrupted in the event of a crash, and the
recovery is a manual procedure that requires all the users to be
out of the mail system, and all mail services (NLM's) to be stopped.

To quote Novell technical document 2929412:

"This is highly recommended whenever a server abends containing the
GroupWise data store which most likely was compromised from the abend
on your system. Also recommended for periodical maintenance."

[... hideous manual recovery procedure deleted...]

"Again, this is highly recommended whenever a server abends containing
the GroupWise data store which most likely was compromised from the
abend on your system."

The upshot is, all contemporary messaging systems have centralized
message stores that have data shared by multiple users.  This
does have serious disaster recovery implications.  But it is the
recovery methodology and database design that separates Microsoft
from the others.

I think it is also worth noting here that GroupWise 5.x wasn't
a very stable product until recently, with 5.2, and the 5.0
release (which I never recommended anyway) is rather notorious
for crashing (especially the post office NLM), creating its own
corrupt database recovery situtation.
--
Greg Askew
Business Information Technologies, Inc.



> > I don't know anything about Groupwise, but I think you should consider:

> > Nowadays, Exchange is a breeze to set up.  We actually don't want to be
> > Exchange gurus, and it seems we have succeeded, but can do just about
> > everything w/out reading manuals.

> > Exchange supports nearly all internet standards, including LDAP and IMAP,
> > POP, NNTP, etc...

> > Exchange has an incredibly powerful development environment, in which it
> > takes literally minutes to set up some pretty sophistocated apps using
> > Forms and/or custom folders.

> > If you need to go beyond simple Folder Customization/Form Design,
> > Exchange is programmable using a WIDE ARRAY of standard development tools
> > (such as Visual Basic, Visual C++, Java, etc..).  I am sure that
> > Groupwise cannot rival this.

> > In short, Groupwise may offer very nice canned functionality, but I would
> > be hard pressed to believe that it is as powerful/flexible, or that it is
> > much easier to set up and/or administer.  If it were an order of
> > magnitude cheaper  than Exchange, then that might be a consideration.

> Coming from someone who has experience on Exchange since the betas, MS Mail,
> Groupwise, and Notes:
> Exchange has some major problems when it comes to data recovery. Since it
> stores all mail for all users in a single file, PRIV.EDB, a small amount of
> data corruption trashes the lot. Also, when a users mailbox is deleted
> accidently (it happens sometimes), there's no simple way of recovering it.
> With Groupwise, each user has a database, and all messages are also stored
> in message databases. It's possible to delete all user databases and still
> recreate them from the message databases, and vice versa. Message tracking
> from the client is also pathetic compared to Groupwise - from Groupwise,
> without doing anything extra, you can track when the message was sent, what
> server it went to, when it was received, when it was opened, when it was
> deleted or replied to.

> Graeme

 
 
 

Cost of ownership - Exchange vs. Groupwise - Help!

Post by Graeme Adams » Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:00:00



> I think it is also worth noting here that GroupWise 5.x wasn't
> a very stable product until recently, with 5.2, and the 5.0
> release (which I never recommended anyway) is rather notorious
> for crashing (especially the post office NLM), creating its own
> corrupt database recovery situtation.

This is true. Groupwise always crashed more often than Exchange does, but I
found Groupwise easier to rebuild from a serious crash than Exchange. If
Groupwise was available on an NT server platform, I might even still be
interested in it.

Graeme

 
 
 

1. Exchange costs vs. Groupwise costs etc. - help

We are trying to get together a basic cost scale that will help us
determine the better groupware package - exchange or groupwise.

Is there any kind of formula that can make this an easy task?  We
hired a consulting firm to calculate these costs, and they came up
with a proposal that hardly helps us out.

I have a meeting with our IT leaders and the lan administrators of our
various departments in a week or so.  They are going to ask me
questions like:

If we were using either today, what would it cost us to add one user
to the system.  (can it be broken down like this?)

Of course we're doing the old NT vs. Netware debate as well, as well
as a server consolidation project that all play into this.  In all the
confusion I woudl think there would be one good paper on the web
somewhere that outlines the cost comparisons of the various groupware
packages in various scenarios.

Does anyone have *anything* at all on this?  Please help...


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