Very Computer

Quote:>Note:  They say the third time's the charm...  ;)
>Apologies to those who've seen this more than once!

>Windows95:

> Building for Windows 95 and Windows NT placards were liberally
> distributed around the Windows World area (Windows World and Comdex
> occupied roughly equal floor space).  The crowds were very active
> around both the Windows 95 and Windows 95 application demonstrations.
> Below is a list of application software from an informal survey I
> conducted as I wandered around the show:

 [list deleted]

  Terry, did you find any tools that exist for OS/2 and NOT Win95 ?
  Did you look ?
  How about GammaTech, GalCiv, Describe, there are others...

 [other items of interest deleted]

Quote:

>Multiple Displays under Win NT

> Several companies were demonstrating multiple monitor setups under
> Windows NT (seamless desktop).  Cool stuff.

  OS/2 has had this ability for about 2 years now, it's called MXGA.
  You can have up to 8 monitors connected to one machine in any configuration
(1x1,1x2,1x3,1x4,2x2,2x3,2x4,4x2,3x2,3x1,2x1 -- I think that's all of 'em).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Aupperlee                   "These PRETZELS are making me THIRSTY!"
  *These statements are mine*
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:  They say the third time's the charm...  ;)
Apologies to those who've seen this more than once!

Comdex and Windows World Report - Spring 1995

 Comdex this year seemed a bit sleepy to me, as there were no really
 major announcements.  However, there were many interesting hardware
 and software products to be found.  Some of the more interesting
 points:

Windows95:

 Building for Windows 95 and Windows NT placards were liberally
 distributed around the Windows World area (Windows World and Comdex
 occupied roughly equal floor space).  The crowds were very active
 around both the Windows 95 and Windows 95 application demonstrations.
 Below is a list of application software from an informal survey I
 conducted as I wandered around the show:

 Application                  Windows 95         OS/2
 -----------                  ----------         ----
 America Online               Y                  N
 Autocad                      Y                  N
 CA SuperProject              Y                  Y
 Canvas                       Y                  N
 CIS                          Y                  Y
 Digital Smalltalk            Y                  Y
 Delphi                       Y                  N (maybe?)
 Describe                     Y                  Y
 Designer                     Y                  N
 Doom                         Y                  Y
 Elastic Reality              Y                  N
 Fauve Matisse                Y                  N
 Fractal Painter              Y                  N
 Framemaker                   Y                  Y
 Illustrator                  Y                  N
 Hypercomm                    Y                  Y
 Lightwave 3D                 Y                  N
 Lotus Suite                  Y                  Y
 Microsoft Access             Y                  N
 Microsoft Office             Y                  N
 Microsoft Project            Y                  N
 Norton Navigator             Y                  N
 Norton Utilities             Y                  N
 Novell Suite                 Y                  N
 Pagemaker                    Y                  N
 Picture Publisher            Y                  N
 Photoshop                    Y                  N
 Procomm                      Y                  N
 SAS                          Y                  Y
 TruSpace                     Y                  N
 Visio                        Y                  N
 WinFax Pro.                  Y                  N

 Granted, these are primarily Windows ISVs, but I think its clear that
 not too many of the major Windows apps are moving to OS/2, but most
 are being ported to Win95.  All of these apps will also run on Windows
 NT, with the exception of the first version of WinFax Pro (the next
 version after that will support Win NT).  However, a patch is being
 developed that will allow the 16-bit version of WinFax to run on Win
 NT 3.51.

Alpha:

 There were some new players in the Alpha clone market visible at
 Comdex this Spring.  Contrary to the opinions of some, the Alpha clone
 marketplace appears healthy, and vendors were enthusiastic about their
 products.  Digital is pursuing a somewhat startling strategy of
 letting the third-party clone vendors have access to the fastest parts
 immediately, and those third party vendors are beating Digital to
 market with product.

 The most impressive Alpha clone that I saw was the Raptor from
 Deskstation technologies.  It offers a removable CPU card, and several
 different CPU choices (both MIPS and Alpha) are available, or will be
 available by May.  They were demonstrating the highest-end system at
 Comdex, which is powered by a 300 MHz. 21164 4-way superscalar Alpha
 part (rated at 300 SPECint92 and 500 SPECfp92).  In real-world tests
 of generating a ray-traced scene using the Lightwave 3D package, it
 outperformed a 90 MHz. Pentium system by over a factor of six.  Unlike
 many of the other Alpha clones, the Raptor only supports the Windows
 NT operating system.

 Several other vendors, such as Aspen, Carrera, Nekotech, and BSG were
 also demonstrating Alpha clones, most of which used the 275 MHz. 21064
 parts (none were yet demonstrating 21164 based systems).  These
 systems all supported Digital UNIX, Windows NT, and OpenVMS.

MIPS:

 Not too much new in the MIPS camp.  NEC continues to be the big player
 here.  Until the R10000 ships, I must confess my interest level is
 lukewarm.

PowerPC:

 PowerPC continued to be a much publicized product at Comdex.  PowerPC
 pictures were in every badge holder, and there was a large PowerPC
 area sponsored by Motorola, IBM, and Apple.  There were 604 based
 machines shown from Firepower and Austin, both running Windows NT 3.51
 beta, and demos of Canvas, Picture Publisher, Elastic Reality, and
 Doom.  IBM only had one older 66 MHz. 601 in this area, running OS/2
 for PowerPC.  It did not appear to be generating too much interest.

OS/2 for PowerPC:

 OS/2 Warp for PowerPC was a big improvement over where it was last
 year.  It was fairly robust, and was running a port of the Relish PIM,
 as well as some unaccelerated OpenGL demos.  Nothing in the way of big
 name apps. though.  It looks like it might actually make a release
 date before the end of the year.  Im not sure if the install routine
 is a significant improvement over Warp for Intel.  Note that this is
 essentially Warp Connect for the PowerPC.  There is no human-centric
 interface, and no OS personality support.

IBM Area

 The IBM area wasn't getting as much traffic as the MS/Windows area
 when I was there, but the Warp test-drive center was fairly busy.  I
 thought it was a good idea to let potential users get some guided
 hands-on experience at the show.  OS/2 for PowerPC had a very muted
 presence here.  The person demonstrating the system (another 66 MHz.
 601) emphasized that Warp for Intel was here now, and OS/2 for PPC
 was aimed at "power users".  And here I was thinking that IBM's plan
 was to challenge Intel....

Miscellaneous Items of Interest

Modular Motherboard

 This was an ultra-compact motherboard design that had a 64-bit PCI
 processor card slot, two 64-bit PCI slots, and four ISA slots.  PCI
 SCSI-2, two 16550 serial ports, an ECP parallel port and floppy
 controller are all integrated with the motherboard.  The processor
 cards have the cache and DRAM on card with the processors.  They have
 processor cards for Pentium, MIPS, Alpha and PowerPC.  Pretty
 impressive, they are looking for OEMs and VARs to start building
 systems based on these motherboards.  The company name is Kenetics.

HDTV

 C-Cube was showing a full-on HDTV system in their booth.  It was very
 impressive.  I want one (and more importantly, I want HDTV programming
 and recorded movies).  HDTV displays will also make good computer
 monitors.

CD-ROM / Optical Drive

 Panasonic has an interesting drive out that provides both a 4x CD-ROM
 capability, and a 650 MB read/write optical capability in the same
 drive.  At $59 for the read-write cartridge, it looks like a pretty
 interesting device.  Its a little pricey at $995 though.  Panasonic is
 the manufacturer.

Pentium 120

 Blazingly fast PCs.  I want one.  Micron looks like the hot ticket
 right now (excellent memory subsystems).

Multiple Displays under Win NT

 Several companies were demonstrating multiple monitor setups under
 Windows NT (seamless desktop).  Cool stuff.

Quote:>Windows World and Comdex occupied roughly equal floor space.

They did?

Certainly you mean in the West Hall only.

        -Kenny

--
Kenneth R. Crudup, Unix & OS/2 Software Consultant, Scott County Consulting

16 Plainfield St, Boston, MA 02130-3633   +1 617 983 9410      Fax
OS/2 box: pkenny.tiac.net (when I'm online) Get Warp-ed! OS/2 3.0 is here NOW!

Quote:>>  How about GammaTech, GalCiv, Describe, there are others...

>Um, if you look again you'll find Describe on the list.  I also
>mentioned that this list was Windows-centric.  Remember, most people
>will find the applications they're currently using on it - even OS/2
>users.

Describe is advertising native OS/2 and Windows 95 versions already.

Quote:>>  OS/2 has had this ability for about 2 years now, it's called MXGA.
>>  You can have up to 8 monitors connected to one machine in any configuration
>>(1x1,1x2,1x3,1x4,2x2,2x3,2x4,4x2,3x2,3x1,2x1 -- I think that's all of 'em).

>Cool!  How many hardware vendors support it?

I think virtually every monitor vendor. <G>

--
Tom Krotchko

"I think it obliterates the software I use right now"
  -- OS/2 user describing the effects of Warp on his system

Um, if you look again you'll find Describe on the list.  I also
mentioned that this list was Windows-centric.  Remember, most people
will find the applications they're currently using on it - even OS/2
users.

The point of this list was mainly to show that the contention that
Win95 wouldn't have much native Win32 software support was a bunch of
malarkey.

Quote:> [other items of interest deleted]

>>Multiple Displays under Win NT

>> Several companies were demonstrating multiple monitor setups under
>> Windows NT (seamless desktop).  Cool stuff.

>  OS/2 has had this ability for about 2 years now, it's called MXGA.
>  You can have up to 8 monitors connected to one machine in any configuration
>(1x1,1x2,1x3,1x4,2x2,2x3,2x4,4x2,3x2,3x1,2x1 -- I think that's all of 'em).

Cool!  How many hardware vendors support it?
--
Terry Sikes               |  Software Developer++

finger for PGP pub key    |  "Anyone programming in a 16-bit environment
My opinions - mine only!  |   isn't playing with a full DEC."

  Well, IBM for one.
  Any hires card will work with the system and it needs one XGA-2 card to
be in 'control' of what goes where.  Radius has a card (ISA or MCA) that
has four XGA ports on it, so two cards are all you need to drive 8 monitors.
Nth graphics cards can also be used.  Any card that supports XGA-2 can
be used for the system, doesn't require any special hardware other than
an XGA-2 card or two.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Aupperlee                   "These PRETZELS are making me THIRSTY!"
  *These statements are mine*
------------------------------------------------------------------------

See Terry,  Win95 is due in August and no major anouncements.
That's what was reported.  Where are the win32 apps and noise ?

Quote:>Windows95:

> Building for Windows 95 and Windows NT placards were liberally

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not BUILT FOR Windows95. BUILDING.

[List of windows ISV's deleted]

Quote:> Granted, these are primarily Windows ISVs, but I think its clear that
> not too many of the major Windows apps are moving to OS/2, but most
> are being ported to Win95.  

That many are doing OS/2 development is a far cry from last year
where few were doing any at all.
What about listing the OS/2 ISV's not developing for Win95 ?
GammaTech for instance.  Xact ?  Relish ?

Quote:>Alpha:
> Contrary to the opinions of some, the Alpha clone
> marketplace appears healthy, and vendors were enthusiastic about their
> products.   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Digital is pursuing a somewhat startling strategy of

                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote:> letting the third-party clone vendors have access to the fastest parts
> immediately, and those third party vendors are beating Digital to
> market with product.

It appears that the market is not healthy if Digital is letting clone
makers get the latest technology ASAP. It appears that ALpha needs to
push the high end ASAP with PPC and MIPS coming.  Sorry by the RISC
market is small and these 3 CPU's are fighting over that niche.

Quote:> Several other vendors, such as Aspen, Carrera, Nekotech, and BSG were

                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Anyone care to by a system from a start up and pray for tech support
and parts later ?
--
A very, very proud member of Team-MT.

Bit players. Unless OS/2 can get more big apps signed up, they're
in trouble. Its good to see Frame working on OS/2. Framemaker is a solid
product with an excellent reputation across platforms.

Quote:>It appears that the market is not healthy if Digital is letting clone
>makers get the latest technology ASAP. It appears that ALpha needs to
>push the high end ASAP with PPC and MIPS coming.  Sorry by the RISC
>market is small and these 3 CPU's are fighting over that niche.

If anyone of those three is to lose, its MIPS, not ALPHA.

Quote:>> Several other vendors, such as Aspen, Carrera, Nekotech, and BSG were
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Anyone care to by a system from a start up and pray for tech support
>and parts later ?
>--

Not like established PPC cloners like Power Computing.

Many of the smaller companies do tech support through a third party.

GE and IBM already do this for many small vendors.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.qucis.queensu.ca:1999/~clawsieb/info.html   finger for PGP key
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Do unto others, then run like hell.

Bit players my butt.  The company makes utilites for OS/2.  I'm
not aware of any reson I have to have a windows ISV make an app
to run under OS/2.  Symantec is a bit player to OS/2 users.
Does it matter to me if my HPFS utility is from Symantec of not?
NO.
It does matter to Symantec since their one time custoemr is GONE.

The real issue is that under DOs/Windows the market for these kinds of
apps. has shrunk.  Under OS/2 a new ISV started up and has taken
advantage of Windows ISV's shortsightness.  It's money out of
Symantec's pocket.  Now why is OS/2 in troble ? Symantec seems to
be in trouble.

Now if we want to list OS/2 software support by looking at WINWDOS
ISV's then let's look at  OS/2 ISV's for windows95 support.

Quote:

>>It appears that the market is not healthy if Digital is letting clone
>>makers get the latest technology ASAP. It appears that ALpha needs to
>>push the high end ASAP with PPC and MIPS coming.  Sorry by the RISC
>>market is small and these 3 CPU's are fighting over that niche.

>If anyone of those three is to lose, its MIPS, not ALPHA.

Really ?  Just MIPS  ? Know of anyone with an ALPHA system ?  I own an
MIPS system, SGI  running UNIX.  I d't think NT MIPS is going to ever
sell well but MIPS CPU's are doing well under SGI and UNIX.

Quote:

>>> Several other vendors, such as Aspen, Carrera, Nekotech, and BSG were
>>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Anyone care to by a system from a start up and pray for tech support
>>and parts later ?
>>--

>Not like established PPC cloners like Power Computing.

Right and why I think the noise over power computing is so
silly. APPLE's clone makers are not newbies.

Quote:>Many of the smaller companies do tech support through a third party.

>GE and IBM already do this for many small vendors.

For a fee they do or as long as the small 3rd party stays in business.
IBM ain't paying to support a dead 3rd party system for free.

--
A very, very proud member of Team-MT.

I'll stand by what I said: GammaTech, Xact, Relish: BIT PLAYERS.
Of the three, I've only heard of Relish. Aren't they a one trick pony?
Would seem so, if their product shares the same name as the company.

Quote:

>Now if we want to list OS/2 software support by looking at WINWDOS
>ISV's then let's look at  OS/2 ISV's for windows95 support.

This would constitute yet another useless smokescreen in the great
OS/2 ISV debacle. Why not just accept reality? ISV support for OS/2
rots, and it doesn't appear to be getting any better as Win95 approaches.
The amount of evidence supporting this claim is overwhelming. Those denying
it are looking sillier by the hour.

Quote:>>>Anyone care to by a system from a start up and pray for tech support
>>>and parts later ?

>>Not like established PPC cloners like Power Computing.

>Right and why I think the noise over power computing is so
>silly. APPLE's clone makers are not newbies.

That was *sarcasm* Joseph. Power Computing is the *quintessential* newbie!

Do you know how long they've been in business?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.qucis.queensu.ca:1999/~clawsieb/info.html   finger for PGP key
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Do unto others, then run like hell.

Quote:

>I'll stand by what I said: GammaTech, Xact, Relish: BIT PLAYERS.
>Of the three, I've only heard of Relish. Aren't they a one trick pony?
>Would seem so, if their product shares the same name as the company.

Just about every vendor started out as a one trick pony.  Witness Lotus
with 123, Borland with turbo pascal, and Word Perfect with their
namesake product.  If os/2 is successful there will be a new order in
the software industry as new companies rise to the top.  Of course the
software industry is always slowly shifting, but in the event of a
drastic change in os direction, the scenario shifts a great deal, just
as it did when dos apps started losing market share to windows.

Quote:>>Right and why I think the noise over power computing is so
>>silly. APPLE's clone makers are not newbies.

>That was *sarcasm* Joseph. Power Computing is the *quintessential* newbie!
>Do you know how long they've been in business?

True about power, though they have big name people on their staff who
were the movers and shakers of the early pc clone era which is why
people make so much noise about them.

Radius is hardly a newbie and they're making apple clones, but I'm not
sure what the point of this discussion is.

                                                        -Ben

  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Team OS/2 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 | "Don't marry a person you can live with, // "Imagination is more important |
 |  marry someone you can't live without." //   than knowledge..." - Einstein |
  '''''''''''''''''''' Bye BYe BYle BYLe BYLee BYLEe BYLEE '''''''''''''''''''

What you don't know about OS/2 ISV's is irrelevant to whether these
are BIT players or not.  

What matters is that some companies are dominate in the OS/2 market
and they are making money and adding products.  They are operating a
business in the OS/2 market providing the functionality other ISV's
have provided for Windows.  When I do a backup it makes no differenece
to me if the utility I use came from a Windwos ISV that YOU HAPPEN TO
RECOGNIZE.

Quote:>>Now if we want to list OS/2 software support by looking at WINWDOS
>>ISV's then let's look at  OS/2 ISV's for windows95 support.

>This would constitute yet another useless smokescreen in the great
>OS/2 ISV debacle. Why not just accept reality? ISV support for OS/2
>rots, and it doesn't appear to be getting any better as Win95 approaches.

OS/2 rots  -- that's why you have to tell us about it all the time.
so I'm supposed to say DOES NOT -- you say DOES TOO.  That's a waste.
Why not make a specific example of how OS/2 support is drying up.
Last survey I saw had under 10% of WINDOWS ISV's refusing to do OS/2
ports.  What are the 90% thinking  Brad ?  Add o that OS/2 ISV already
in business making money.  

Quote:>The amount of evidence supporting this claim is overwhelming. Those denying
>it are looking sillier by the hour.

fluff.  show us.

Quote:>>>>Anyone care to by a system from a start up and pray for tech support
>>>>and parts later ?

>>>Not like established PPC cloners like Power Computing.

>>Right and why I think the noise over power computing is so
>>silly. APPLE's clone makers are not newbies.

>That was *sarcasm* Joseph. Power Computing is the *quintessential* newbie!

>Do you know how long they've been in business?

No, nor would I ask.

Quote:

>But Bush's re-election was a sure thing just like Wind95 is a sure
>thing now, and if it multithreads right and it really debugged and the
>supposed apps for it don't suck rocks people really buy them even
>thought they don't coexist very well with the apps that they already
>have and the Ziff-Davis Publishing "reviews" keep coming and ... :)
>Then it will be a sacred cash cow, not one that OS/2 will make
>hamburgers out of.

It isn't an issue of technical superiority, or reader polls. Market
momentum is manipulated by ISV's. Where ISV's decide to develop determines
what OS will be popular. In this sense, the decision is done. Most ISV's
have now put other projects on hold, or cancelled them in favor of WIN95
development. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy: MS has convinced the ISV's
that the money is in WIN95. Once they were convinced, and directed their    
resources towards WIN95, the game was already done. If users want the
latest versions of their apps, they'll have to go to WIN95 to get them.

The sheer number of developers working on WIN95 ports, pouring all of their
resources into it, essentially assures WIN95 of success. The time to
pitch this battle was twelve months ago. Try finding one major ISV today
who isn't working on WIN95. There may be some, but certainly not many.
This ISV support will push users into buying WIN95; hence the self-fulfilling
prophecy is fulfilled. Game over.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.qucis.queensu.ca:1999/~clawsieb/info.html   finger for PGP key
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Do unto others, then run like hell.

I don't cite myself.  If you think OS/2 support is dropping then show
it.  You haven't.  You don't even know how many different choices there
are in several app categories.

Quote:>>Why not make a specific example of how OS/2 support is drying up.
>>Last survey I saw had under 10% of WINDOWS ISV's refusing to do OS/2
>>ports.  What are the 90% thinking  Brad ?  Add o that OS/2 ISV already
>>in business making money.  

>And does that 10% perhaps produce 90% of the apps? Fill in the
>blanks before you trying snowing me with your statistics.
>What convinces me that OS/2 ISV support rots?

I have no idea why you'd comment on ISV's and Apps without of Indelible
Blue.

Quote:>Uhmmm, maybe everything I've read in every trade rag in the last
>six months. Check out the Win95 vs. OS/2 section in a recent Computerworld.
>Check out Information Week on the Web. All the news is there in quantity.

More Fluff Brad.
Why not cite one example.  Why not show the marekt droppng interest in
OS/2?  You can't because it's not happening.

You accused me of snowing you with numbers that came from Ziff's Web
site.  If you are the know it all then why did you miss that news?

Quote:>The verdict is obvious; as Win95 approaches, ISV's are putting resources
>into developing for it.

Actually ISV's put their backing behind Win95 long before now.  What
makes you think that anything's changed such that ISV's are doing MORE
development?  In short Brad your comment is fluff.

Quote:>Not bit player ISV's with one PIM to market,

Fluff Brad.  The PIM has over 2 million copies shipped.  It's been
available for years and the company sells more than one product.  Is
that a bit player Brad ?  Probaly because you don't know about it so
that by Brad's Definitions means bit player.  I guess it also means
that if you use it you somehow get less done than if it was sold by a
Windows ISV in finacnical trouble -- like Borland for instance.  You
know Borland's brand name so that's a big player -- never mind the
downsizing and losses at Borland -- it's a well know ISV.

Quote:>but the big players who run the software game. I can't believe you haven't
>come across even one of these articles. If USENET is your only source
>of info, you're being misled.

Let's see Brad refer to one article for once.  
You can check out WWW.ZIFF.COM and see that less than 10% of the major
1000 ISV's IBM contacted expressed NO interest in OS/2 development.
Then you can show me a place where you can show OS/2 losing ISV
support and interest.

[..]

Quote:>But you're perfectly satisfied to cut down other vendors for being
>newbies, yet somehow it doesn't matter where Power Computing is
>concerned?

There's a difference between hardware and software.  One wears out and
needs replacement parts and service, the other doesn't.  My working
backup software for OS/2 will never wear out or stop functioning like a
computer will.  The spell checker I bought for Text files back in 1984
still works but the Sanyo system I got is no longer serviced.  See the
difference between the two and why it's logical to NOT lump them ?

--
A very, very proud member of Team-MT.

Can I snip this for future reference? It could prove entertaining to
bring it up every now and then.

Quote:>If you think OS/2 support is dropping then show
>it.  You haven't.  You don't even know how many different choices there
>are in several app categories.

Oh Joseph, your "prove it" routine is soooo tired, but since you insist;

- OS/2 vs. NT vs. WIN95 - a special report in ComputerWorld. April 95.
You can figure out the page numbers.

- Information Week :

http://techweb.cmp.com:2090/techweb/iwk/current/default.html

Check current issues from, oh, just about anytime in the last two months.

The news is there in black and white. OS/2 ISV's are jumping ship.
The more you play out this "prove it" routine simply reinforces how
flimsy your whole game is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.qucis.queensu.ca:1999/~clawsieb/info.html   finger for PGP key
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Do unto others, then run like hell.