Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by jo.. » Sun, 02 May 1999 04:00:00





> >Would it not be wonderful for MS to find some "*-stamp"
> >institution where MS would then submit a full defined Windows NT and
> >API specification?  One should keep things in perspective.

> Why? The have basically had that in the Media for  years, where all the
> pundits and columnists gave them everything they wanted *without* giving up
> API information and code snippets.

I understand.  My point was to show just how little info and help MS
provides for Windows wrt what SUN has done with JAVA.

The COMPUTER NEWS MEDIA have used the paucity of knowledge wrt Windows
to sell their mags. and wisdom to the public.  They have been easy to
manipulate.  The general Media is another story.  Hyper-cynical, they
have been tearing MS down.

 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by flmi.. » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>http://www.veryComputer.com/,4164,1014537,00.html

>'Sun Microsystems Inc.'s long-standing plans to submit its Java language for
>standardization via ISO are dead, according to Alan Baratz, president of
>Sun's Java Software division.'

>'"ISO killed them," Baratz said in an interview with IT Week at this week's
>Java Enterprise Solutions Symposium.'

>'The news means that the Java language is now little nearer to becoming an
>officially recognized international standard than it was at its launch in
>1995.'

>'Baratz said ISO recently changed the rules that would govern Java if it
>were to be made an ISO standard. He said the changes were made late last
>year, 12 months after Sun had been granted authority to submit its
>technology for approval.'

>'"A PAS [Publicly Available Specification] submitter must now turn over the
>maintenance part of a standard to ISO [in addition to any current
>specification]. That's something we've always said we wouldn't do," Baratz
>said.'

>'Baratz blamed ISO's change of heart on "the Wintel alliance" and Microsoft
>Corp. in particular.'

><snip>

>'Baratz added that Sun was "struggling to find a way forward" for its Java
>standardization plans. He said Sun was currently in talks with alternative
>bodies, including the ECMA (European Computer Manufacturer's Association),
>to find an appropriate organization. Candidate bodies must be willing to
>ratify work turned over by Sun while agreeing to let the company create its
>own rules for moving the Java platform forward.'

>In other words, they're looking for a *-stamp.

I was initally concerned about your post. But the news isn't so bad. You are
probably aware that Sun and AOL and Netscape are being grilled by Microsoft
right now over the DOJ case. This is likely news related to that grilling designed
to show that Microsoft is still behaving in ways that are illegal for a monopolist.
Java will eventually gain ISO certification. Regarding the monopolist -- the
Seatlle Times and San Jose Mercury news and others were successful in getting
all of the depositions regarding the DOJ Microsoft case released to the public.
The stories are incredible! For example that 30 million plus donation to MIT was
apparently payment for favorable testimony from the MIT expert witnesses.

I think MIT should spit that money back. It is just sickening! Regarding remidees,
all current and former officers of Microsoft should be banned from IS related jobs
and investments and the Internet portions of the IS industry, such as browsers and
file formats transmitted over the internet, should be government regulated. There
does not appear to be any other end to this.

http://www.veryComputer.com/~mighetto/lsmonop.htm

 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by Steven C. Den Bes » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00




>>http://www.veryComputer.com/,4164,1014537,00.html

>>'Sun Microsystems Inc.'s long-standing plans to submit its Java language for
>>standardization via ISO are dead, according to Alan Baratz, president of
>>Sun's Java Software division.'

>>'"ISO killed them," Baratz said in an interview with IT Week at this week's
>>Java Enterprise Solutions Symposium.'

>>'The news means that the Java language is now little nearer to becoming an
>>officially recognized international standard than it was at its launch in
>>1995.'

>>'Baratz said ISO recently changed the rules that would govern Java if it
>>were to be made an ISO standard. He said the changes were made late last
>>year, 12 months after Sun had been granted authority to submit its
>>technology for approval.'

>>'"A PAS [Publicly Available Specification] submitter must now turn over the
>>maintenance part of a standard to ISO [in addition to any current
>>specification]. That's something we've always said we wouldn't do," Baratz
>>said.'

>>'Baratz blamed ISO's change of heart on "the Wintel alliance" and Microsoft
>>Corp. in particular.'

>><snip>

>>'Baratz added that Sun was "struggling to find a way forward" for its Java
>>standardization plans. He said Sun was currently in talks with alternative
>>bodies, including the ECMA (European Computer Manufacturer's Association),
>>to find an appropriate organization. Candidate bodies must be willing to
>>ratify work turned over by Sun while agreeing to let the company create its
>>own rules for moving the Java platform forward.'

>>In other words, they're looking for a *-stamp.

>I was initally concerned about your post. But the news isn't so bad. You are
>probably aware that Sun and AOL and Netscape are being grilled by Microsoft
>right now over the DOJ case. This is likely news related to that grilling designed
>to show that Microsoft is still behaving in ways that are illegal for a monopolist.
>Java will eventually gain ISO certification. Regarding the monopolist -- the
>Seatlle Times and San Jose Mercury news and others were successful in getting
>all of the depositions regarding the DOJ Microsoft case released to the public.
>The stories are incredible! For example that 30 million plus donation to MIT was
>apparently payment for favorable testimony from the MIT expert witnesses.

The members of the discussion forum for the Java Study Group of JTC1-SC22,
the group in ISO that was working on this, seem to disagree with you. Nearly
universally, their comments condemn Sun.

You can read their comments for yourself by beginning with the following
file:

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/926

and incrementing the numbers. There is a list of the members here:

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/list

This is their home page:

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/index.html

Here are some example comments:

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/927
"I'm now convinced that Sun is not interested in anything
that could take Java out of Sun's (proprietary) hands.  The
Sun "open process" still gives Sun complete control over the
language evolution.  Furthermore, it's not clear that Sun
-ever intended- to achieve ISO standardization."
     David Emery, MITRE

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/928
"What it comes down to is one of two things:
  Sun didn't get it the first time (when most countries
  were fairly clear on this matter) ... and finally heard it
or
  Sun really didn't want to go into ISO anyway, and
  was just pulling the industry, et al's chain ...."
     Jim Isaak, Computer.Org

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/930
"Sun didn't get it the first time. ISO has changed nothing. I think we've
been used, or maybe avoided being used."
     Rick Sutcliffe, Trinity Western University

ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/932
"A Microsoft *?  Give me a break!  Baratz should take another look
at the email record during the voting process.  It was individuals like
Francis Glassboro, myself and others that pushed the "yes with comments"
position so hard, _NOT_ Microsoft." (and much more! Read this one!)
     Eric Gufford, Triad Systems

In fact, of all the ones I read, there's only one which defends Sun at all,
and it's none too enthusiastic.

--------

You can be part of the greatest scientific experiment of all time!
           http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by Josep » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00




> >I was initally concerned about your post. But the news isn't so bad. You are
> >probably aware that Sun and AOL and Netscape are being grilled by Microsoft
> >right now over the DOJ case. This is likely news related to that grilling designed
> >to show that Microsoft is still behaving in ways that are illegal for a monopolist.
> >Java will eventually gain ISO certification. Regarding the monopolist -- the
> >Seatlle Times and San Jose Mercury news and others were successful in getting
> >all of the depositions regarding the DOJ Microsoft case released to the public.
> >The stories are incredible! For example that 30 million plus donation to MIT was
> >apparently payment for favorable testimony from the MIT expert witnesses.

> The members of the discussion forum for the Java Study Group of JTC1-SC22,
> the group in ISO that was working on this, seem to disagree with you. Nearly
> universally, their comments condemn Sun.

ISO and did not condemn SUN.  They are merely frustrated and these are individual
opinions.  Some opinions are naive.

I too will bet Java will gain ISO certification -- how can it not?   The problem seems to
be with ISO -- ISO needs to find a way to let a company submit a technology for
certification and let the company maintain control over their technology.  ISO will
adapt. Meanwhile there are alternative organizations that can provide the same service to
SUN.

Quote:> Here are some example comments:

> ftp://dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/JSG/927
> "I'm now convinced that Sun is not interested in anything
> that could take Java out of Sun's (proprietary) hands.  The
> Sun "open process" still gives Sun complete control over the
> language evolution.  Furthermore, it's not clear that Sun
> -ever intended- to achieve ISO standardization."
>      David Emery, MITRE

How insightful -- SUN's maintained since day one that they wanted to maintain control
over the language evolution.

Quote:> In fact, of all the ones I read, there's only one which defends Sun at all,
> and it's none too enthusiastic.

Ask them how enthusiastic they are over  MS and your Windows advocacy.  Don't lose
perspective.
 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by Steven C. Den Bes » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>Java just makes to much sense for it not to gain ISO certification. My
>understanding is that there is more than one route to certification. The
>one that Sun was on appeared to be the easy one. In mid stream the
>rules were changed. Now a different route will be found and taken. ISO's
>only current contribution to the IS industry of relevance is the COBOL
>standard.

Oh?

http://www.iso.ch/cate/d16663.html#0 SQL
http://www.iso.ch/cate/d17782.html#0 C
http://www.iso.ch/cate/d25845.html#0 C++
http://www.iso.ch/cate/d23693.html#0 SCSI2

Go here and see some of the other things they've been involved in:
http://www.iso.ch/cate/35.html

Frank, do you EVER check anything before you post it?

Quote:>Now really, if ISO wants to remain relevant to the IS industry they
>are going to have to come around eventually. Then there are the remedies that
>will be applied to Microsoft at conclusion of the DOJ anti trust case. Does any
>one think that Java will not be part of that? If Microsoft plus everyone else
>petitions ISO, it is going to happen. And lets remember that IBM has bet the
>farm on Java. It currently has the fastest JVMs on almost all platforms and
>of course the best platform for developing Java applications and aplets
>is IBM's OS/2 platform. Regarding that, there is likely still some Microsoft
>ownership of OS/2. I say that because the court believes OS/2 to be a
>Windows derivative. If one of the remedies is to turn over any remaining
>Microsoft ownership of OS/2 to IBM then IBM can invest in some marketing
>of the OS/2 client. At this point in time, it could be that for every dolar
>earned for an OS/2 sale Microsoft gets 50 cents. This would be similar to the
>arrangement that Microsoft had with SCO involving Unix.

>http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/lsmonop.htm

--------

You can be part of the greatest scientific experiment of all time!
           http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/

 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by Steven C. Den Bes » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00





>>>Java just makes to much sense for it not to gain ISO certification. My
>>>understanding is that there is more than one route to certification. The
>>>one that Sun was on appeared to be the easy one. In mid stream the
>>>rules were changed. Now a different route will be found and taken. ISO's
>>>only current contribution to the IS industry of relevance is the COBOL
>>>standard.

>>Oh?

>>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d16663.html#0 SQL
>>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d17782.html#0 C
>>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d25845.html#0 C++
>>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d23693.html#0 SCSI2

>>Go here and see some of the other things they've been involved in:
>>http://www.iso.ch/cate/35.html

>>Frank, do you EVER check anything before you post it?

>I was expecting you to mention FORTRAN. I stand by my statment. C and C++ are
>as relevant as ASSEMBLER. There is no reason to invest time and energy in
>learning it and products convert Java to C at will.  BTW, ORACLE SQL is very different
>from Microsoft SQL, it does not look like a relevant standard to me, and I use
>it everyday.  JDBC bridges that difference. thats J for Java.

Different segments and specialties use different languages. Approximately
one third of programmers now employed do what I do, embedded programming,
and in that field Java has barely made any impact at all. C is by far the
most important language in this area, and in general is one of the most
important computer languages there is.

So far few people in the embedded community are taking Java seriously for
the simple reason that it's too big, too slow, and too uncontrollable. In
real-time work, you DO NOT USE anything which requires garbage collection
because you can't control how long things will take.

As you know, I work now on firmware for cell phones. We calibrate execution
of some of our code down to the microsecond, and if we didn't, the phones
would malfunction. We can't get that degree of control out of Java and
probably never will be able to.

Moreover, in mass-produced products which use embedded software, we are
usually extremely cost conscious. Flash-ROM is expensive, and it also
consumes power. We try to use as little as we can.

When Sun first announced embedded Java and proudly mentioned that the
run-time system was only 2 megabytes, I wondered how exactly they expected
us to use it considering that our phone only had 768K of ROM in it. Since
then we've created a new generation phone, and we now have a full megabyte.
And we have to fit our application code in as well as whatever run-time
system they think we're supposed to use. No thanks.

Since Linux is often considered to be the point-man of the Anti-Microsoft
movement and perhaps its best chance of success (and indeed that may be
true) I'd like to point out that almost all of GNU and of Linux which are
not assembly language are written in C or C++.

There are many, many applications where C written directly will continue to
dominate for a long time to come.

And despite Java's claims to the contrary, C remains the most portable
language in existence. If you stick to stdio.h for your I/O and follow
certain other well-understood rules, a C program can be compiled and run in
any of a hundred environments with no change in the source.

Quote:>Now be a nice poster. Your opinion is valued even if you do not value mine.

I apologize. But I really wish you'd research your comments a bit more
before making grandiose claims.

--------

You can be part of the greatest scientific experiment of all time!
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Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by flmi.. » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>>>Steven C. Den Beste
>>>The members of the discussion forum for the Java Study Group of JTC1-SC22,
>>>the group in ISO that was working on this, seem to disagree with you. Nearly
>>>universally, their comments condemn Sun.

>>ISO and did not condemn SUN. They are merely frustrated and these are individual
>>opinions. Some opinions are naive.

>Yeah, like yours. But it should be also be added that your opinion is
>horrendously arrogant in condemning the actual opinions of the ISO
>Java Study Group as "naive" in regards to Sun's attempt at ISO
>certification

>>I too will bet Java will gain ISO certification -- how can it not?

>Sounds like the start of *yet another of the many, many, many*
>Coughlan predictions that Steven will be showing to be incorrect. All
>we need now is a timeframe from Coughlan for when he thinks that his
>newest fairy tale will come true so that Steven can fully document how
>WRONG, WRONG, WRONG Coughlan is YET AGAIN (although I notice that
>Coughlan omitted such a timeframe. Perhaps after seeing every one of
>his predictions fading away under contrary evidence presented by
>Steven has made him MUCH less reluctant to post any more time frames
>for his wishful flights of fancy).

>>Don't lose perspective.

>Otherwise you'll start making predictions that end up being about as
>accurate as Coughlan's -- abysmally so

Java just makes to much sense for it not to gain ISO certification. My
understanding is that there is more than one route to certification. The
one that Sun was on appeared to be the easy one. In mid stream the
rules were changed. Now a different route will be found and taken. ISO's
only current contribution to the IS industry of relevance is the COBOL
standard. Now really, if ISO wants to remain relevant to the IS industry they
are going to have to come around eventually. Then there are the remedies that
will be applied to Microsoft at conclusion of the DOJ anti trust case. Does any
one think that Java will not be part of that? If Microsoft plus everyone else
petitions ISO, it is going to happen. And lets remember that IBM has bet the
farm on Java. It currently has the fastest JVMs on almost all platforms and
of course the best platform for developing Java applications and aplets
is IBM's OS/2 platform. Regarding that, there is likely still some Microsoft
ownership of OS/2. I say that because the court believes OS/2 to be a
Windows derivative. If one of the remedies is to turn over any remaining
Microsoft ownership of OS/2 to IBM then IBM can invest in some marketing
of the OS/2 client. At this point in time, it could be that for every dolar
earned for an OS/2 sale Microsoft gets 50 cents. This would be similar to the
arrangement that Microsoft had with SCO involving Unix.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/lsmonop.htm

 
 
 

Inter@ctive Week Online: "Sun blames Microsoft as its Java standardization plans die"

Post by flmi.. » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00




>>Java just makes to much sense for it not to gain ISO certification. My
>>understanding is that there is more than one route to certification. The
>>one that Sun was on appeared to be the easy one. In mid stream the
>>rules were changed. Now a different route will be found and taken. ISO's
>>only current contribution to the IS industry of relevance is the COBOL
>>standard.

>Oh?

>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d16663.html#0 SQL
>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d17782.html#0 C
>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d25845.html#0 C++
>http://www.iso.ch/cate/d23693.html#0 SCSI2

>Go here and see some of the other things they've been involved in:
>http://www.iso.ch/cate/35.html

>Frank, do you EVER check anything before you post it?

I was expecting you to mention FORTRAN. I stand by my statment. C and C++ are
as relevant as ASSEMBLER. There is no reason to invest time and energy in
learning it and products convert Java to C at will.  BTW, ORACLE SQL is very different
from Microsoft SQL, it does not look like a relevant standard to me, and I use
it everyday.  JDBC bridges that difference. thats J for Java.

Now be a nice poster. Your opinion is valued even if you do not value mine.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:>>Now really, if ISO wants to remain relevant to the IS industry they
>>are going to have to come around eventually. Then there are the remedies that
>>will be applied to Microsoft at conclusion of the DOJ anti trust case. Does any
>>one think that Java will not be part of that? If Microsoft plus everyone else
>>petitions ISO, it is going to happen. And lets remember that IBM has bet the
>>farm on Java. It currently has the fastest JVMs on almost all platforms and
>>of course the best platform for developing Java applications and aplets
>>is IBM's OS/2 platform. Regarding that, there is likely still some Microsoft
>>ownership of OS/2. I say that because the court believes OS/2 to be a
>>Windows derivative. If one of the remedies is to turn over any remaining
>>Microsoft ownership of OS/2 to IBM then IBM can invest in some marketing
>>of the OS/2 client. At this point in time, it could be that for every dolar
>>earned for an OS/2 sale Microsoft gets 50 cents. This would be similar to the
>>arrangement that Microsoft had with SCO involving Unix.

>>http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/lsmonop.htm

 
 
 

1. "No Plans to Buy Microprose Games" - "No plans to develop" -- Mi


 wn> Personally, no one would be happier than I if MicroProse ported
 wn> Civilization or Master of Magic to OS/2 but what we really need

And I would be ecstatic if they ported Crusade In Europe. Or just got rid of
the copy protection that forces me to boot from a 5.25" floppy.


Team OS/2               |       John's Bar & Grill (604) 522-7578 |

2. Non-scratching sylus?

3. Infoworld: "Sun scrapping Java chip plans, analyst says "

4. Mail Relay with Dial-SMTP ?

5. PCWeek: "Sun to place big bets on Java Jumpstart"

6. Userid points to >1 key

7. "Sun posts Java foundation class"

8. How to install ASPI support?

9. C/Net: "To IBM: save Java, buy Sun"

10. Business Week: "Microsoft is the victim of a legal mugging"

11. ZDNN: "Sun's unlevel Java playing field"

12. Filename "lpt7", "com1" and "nul"

13. Lost "Shutdown", "Lockup" & "System Setup" Options