Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Chri » Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:00:00



No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what will
MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

What do the PEOPLE think?!


> Netscape is not only making their browser freely distributable, as was
> expected, but it is releasing SOURCE CODE starting with developer releases of
> 5.0!

> Take that, Microsoft!

> --
> ________________________________________________________________________


 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Loren Petri » Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:00:00




>No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what will
>MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
>slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

        Chairman Bill has never been a fan of GNUware -- ever since some
of his hobbyist friends pirated his early version of MITS BASIC.

--
Loren Petrich                           Happiness is a fast Macintosh

My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Steven C. Den Best » Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:00:00




>> Netscape is not only making their browser freely distributable, as was
>> expected, but it is releasing SOURCE CODE starting with developer
releases of
>> 5.0!

>> Take that, Microsoft!

>No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what
will
>MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
>slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

>What do the PEOPLE think?!

I don't think Microsoft is going to make any fundamental change at all. (I
certainly don't think they'll give the source to IE away, for instance.)

Has it occurred to you that this may be, more or less, what Microsoft has
been aiming for all along? Not the release of the source, per se, but the
effective destruction of any sales receipts for Netscape for
Navigator/Communicator etc.?

By doing this, Netscape is now deprived of a major revenue stream. That's
serious for a company which doesn't have all that many; it only leaves
Netscape with about three. (As I recall, what's left is server sales, sales
of groupware, and advertising revenue from Netscape's web site, which turns
out to be significant.)

Since Microsoft hasn't been getting any direct revenue from IE anyway, loss
of some marketshare for it is hardly a disaster; they wanted marketshare as
much to deprive Netscape of it as for any other reason.

(And before anyone accuses me of cheering for this, I'm really sorry that
Netscape is in trouble and that people are being laid off. I wish it wasn't
that way. I hope that they have time to make the transition into a new and
successful business before their resources run out; they don't have much
margin for error. I would be very upset if they went under or were
acquired.)

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Robato Y » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00



> No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what will
> MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
> slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

> What do the PEOPLE think?!

We are about to see the greatest ideological and religeous conflict in
computing history:

The Legacy of Greed, headed by Gates and Microsoft

versus

The Legacy of Voluntary Contribution, as typified by Free Unix
sainthoods.

Frankly, I am so deeply impressed by the Linux movement, which may
have created an operating system with more development hours and
dollars behind it than any commercial OS in history, including
MIcrosoft's, all in so short a time.  I am also deeply impressed of
another movement that complements this, which is the web based
distribution of freeware and shareware.  Wedding both is a web based
system of voluntary software development.  

More and more, other systems will take notice of these two approaches.
 Already Be is inclined towards the latter.  A movement within the
OS/2 groups have strong sentiments to make OS/2 truly free to share
the Linux approach of development.  

Far less noticed by the press is that IBM had already silently
released OpenDOC into the source code public domain, as I heard.  Some
of the technologies in OD can be profound if it found a home in Linux
or any free OS.

If Linux or Free Unix is one shoe, the free browser is the other.  
There is an obvious opportunity in this---taking the source code of
both and welding it into one super NC/Web OS.  There is a third part
in what seems to be really a trinity, and that one is a free JAVA VM
(like Kaffe) for Linux and for the Free Unix movement.  Sun should see
and realize the full potential of what the combination and alignment
of all these forces can mean.

Rgds,

Chris


> > Netscape is not only making their browser freely distributable, as was
> > expected, but it is releasing SOURCE CODE starting with developer releases of
> > 5.0!

> > Take that, Microsoft!

> > --
> > ________________________________________________________________________


 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by boo.. » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00



Quote:>Why would they bother doing anything of the sort? They're
>already gradually (if not faster) taking Netscape's market
>share away.

This is the tragedy of the whole thing.  Seeing MS win because of their
sheer weight and thuggery is troubling to  me; I prefer to see quality win
over thuggery, but that is not to be.

Still, someone will outflank MS and MS will end up as a big, but lawful,
competitor.

----------------------------------------------------
Booth Martin    
---------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Brian Knott » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00



>x-no-archive: yes


>>No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what
>will
>>MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
>>slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

>>What do the PEOPLE think?!

>Why would they bother doing anything of the sort? They're
>already gradually (if not faster) taking Netscape's market
>share away.

Not anymore.

:-)

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Roger Christi » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00



> x-no-archive: yes


> >No one'd really brought this up, so I thought I'd raise the question: what
> will
> >MS do in response to this? Will they GPL Internet Explorer? Will Mr. Gates
> >slander freeware in general? Will they do nothing?

> >What do the PEOPLE think?!

> Why would they bother doing anything of the sort? They're
> already gradually (if not faster) taking Netscape's market
> share away.

> Z

Because this stands to change that.

--
+=======================================+
Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
Linux: Been there, done that.

Roger Christie


+======================================+

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by David H. McC » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00




Quote:> Far less noticed by the press is that IBM had already silently
> released OpenDOC into the source code public domain, as I heard.  Some
> of the technologies in OD can be profound if it found a home in Linux
> or any free OS.

This is hardly sainthood on IBM's part.  They released the source because
they are not supporting OpenDoc.

Are there any examples of IBM releasing the source to any thing that they
are continuing to support?

--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy

-----------------------------------

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by James Himmelm » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00






> > Far less noticed by the press is that IBM had already silently
> > released OpenDOC into the source code public domain, as I heard.  Some
> > of the technologies in OD can be profound if it found a home in Linux
> > or any free OS.
> This is hardly sainthood on IBM's part.  They released the source because
> they are not supporting OpenDoc.

Who said anything about "sainthood"? He only said that IBM released
it, and he is right.

Quote:> Are there any examples of IBM releasing the source to any thing that they
> are continuing to support?

Not that I know of. So what is your point? You seem to be reading an
awful lot into his post.


 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Bradd W. Szony » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00



>>Why would they bother doing anything of the sort? They're
>>already gradually (if not faster) taking Netscape's market
>>share away.




Quote:>This is the tragedy of the whole thing.  Seeing MS win because of their
>sheer weight and thuggery is troubling to  me; I prefer to see quality win
>over thuggery, but that is not to be.

Pardon me if this isn't appropriate for all the included newsgroups...
hopefully it's of a fairly general interest.

Because of the nature of my work and my hobbies, I use a browser, an
SMTP/POP3 e-mail client, and a newsreader--a lot. The most important things
to me in these products are not their features but their interfaces. In
particular, it's important to me that I can do the most common tasks with a
single keystroke unless it's an inherently pointing-type activity (like
selecting links with a mouse[*]).

I use IE4 at home and Communicator4 at work. I prefer IE4 for browsing for
one simple reason: Navigator's interface is broken for the way I usually use
a browser.

First, the minor criticism: while Navigator may be more solid internally
than IE (I don't know this, I'm just admitting that it's a possibility), the
interface shows signs of shoddy implementation. There's at least one option
dialog that has a non-functioning close button in the window frame. It looks
like you should be able to dismiss the dialog with the standard close
button, but it just doesn't work. While getting the internals right is more
important from a technical standpoint, getting the interface right is much
more important from a competitive standpoint!

Next, the major criticism: this might sound silly, but it really bugs me. IE
uses Backspace for the Back button--the most commonly-used shortcut. I can
reach that from my home keys. Navigator uses Alt+Left-Arrow for the same
task. I have to move my hands to press this. Even more annoying (and both
browsers are guilty of this): the other most common tasks are scrolling and
"next in a series of pages." For the former, I have to reach for
PageUp/PageDown; for the latter, the mouse.

One combination of keys might work well: G(o back), Shift+G(o forward),
D(own), U(p). Other potential scroll keys are F/B/space, like most Unix
tools. There's a possible conflict with text fields on forms; possibly use
Ctrl+U/D/F/B for this situation. I would most like forward to be F or
Ctrl+F, but that conflicts with the Windows use of Ctrl+F for find.
Therefore... LET ME CONFIGURE THE SHORTCUTS! That way folks who prefer
Netscape's Space/Backspace for down/up can use that too.

This is really a criticism of all Windows software: please, PLEASE don't
make me take my hands off my home keys to do my most common application
tasks. For all the fluff you hear about improving ergonomics, they can't get
a simple thing right like reducing wrist and arm motion? I must admit, I
never even realized this was a problem until two things happened: I started
using the "vi" editor at work, and I started getting wrist/elbow/shoulder
pain, but only when using my home computer! Now, it certainly makes sense to
make the cursor keys work right, but is it all that hard to put an
alternate, easier keystroke on the main keyboard? As hard to learn as vi can
be, it saves my wrists, which is important in my line of work.

Okay, enough griping about the browsers. Regarding e-mail: I don't have a
lot to say, since I don't use Messenger at work (e-mail is VAX-based), and I
only have some general gripes about Outlook Express. Overall, OE is a nice
mail-reader; unfortunately the editor seems pretty damn broken.
Cut-and-paste is clunky; reply and forward quoting is kind bizarre, and
often screws up the line breaks. I just sort of blunder around with it, not
doing anything too sophisticated. The only reason I don't switch is because
I haven't seen anything I like enough to justify paying for it as an
alternative.

Finally, newsreaders. I kinda like Collabra, except that it's a pain to
start. Start Communicator, start Collabra, choose a newsgroup, close the
groups window, actually get to work. Ugh. After the reader is going,
however, it's pretty nice for a bare-bones reader. Start at the first group
and keep pressing N to go through the messages in all groups. Nice.

Outlook Express is almost as good, except for two things. First, "Next
Unread" is Ctrl-U. DUH! What's the most common reader function, Microsoft?
Use ONE KEYSTROKE please--preferably the N key that all other newsreaders
use. Also: on switching newsgroups, I have to click on the first unread
message; using Next Unread doesn't work at all yet. And then I have to click
in the preview pane again in order to scroll it with the keyboard (otherwise
it scrolls the thread pane). Quit making me reach for the mouse unless I
need to point at something!

That last criticism applies to all Windows newsreaders: Let me go through
ALL the unread messages using only the N key. In all newsgroups. Without
touching my mouse. While you're at it, give me a one-key shortcut for
scrolling the VIEWING pane exclusively. That's the one I scroll the most
often. Put the shortcuts on some alphabetic key.

In my ideal newsreader:
1. You can start the reader directly, unlike Collabra or (to some extent)
OE.
2. The reader automatically downloads the headers from the first newsgroup
in my subscribed list and shows them in the thread pane. With all messages.
With threads expanded. I like context! And let ME order the subscribed
list--don't just use alphabetical order.
3. The reader automatically jumps to the first unread message in the thread
pane (like OE does) without actually downloading the body.
4. The reader actually downloads the first unread message when I hit the N
key.
5. When there are no messages left in the first group, the N key takes me to
the next group. Whether it asks for confirmation to do so (like Collabra) is
an option.
6. While reading messages, I can scroll the preview pane down and up with F
and B. (These are the keys used by almost all Unix applications for this.)
This scrolls the preview pane ONLY. The less-common task of scrolling the
thread pane can use the arrow keys.
7. The space bar also scrolls the preview pane down. At the end of a
message, space bar gets the next message or next unread message, depending
on a configurable option.
8. Optionally, the reader lets me map keys other than N, F, B, space to
these tasks.

Is that too much to ask? I might actually be able to read my news without
ending up with twisted fingers and tense shoulders. In hopes of getting some
of these features, I downloaded the trial version of Anawave's Gravity,
which reviewers rave about. Incredibly, I found its interface even less
usable than Collabra or OE. I'm reluctant to try Free Agent, because so many
of the secondary features I use are only available in Agent, and I can't
evaluate them.

I guess I'll just have to break down and finally learn Windows programming
so that I can get a damn newsreader that works the way I want it to.

(*) By the way, I wish there were some standard HTML tag--maybe there
is--for marking some link on a page as "the next in a series of related
pages." Then, have the browser map a toolbar button and the N key to this
tag.
---
Bradd W. Szonye

http://www.concentric.net/~Bradds

 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by David H. McC » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00








> > > Far less noticed by the press is that IBM had already silently
> > > released OpenDOC into the source code public domain, as I heard.  Some
> > > of the technologies in OD can be profound if it found a home in Linux
> > > or any free OS.

> > This is hardly sainthood on IBM's part.  They released the source because
> > they are not supporting OpenDoc.

> Who said anything about "sainthood"? He only said that IBM released
> it, and he is right.

We are about to see the greatest ideological and religeous conflict in
computing history:

The Legacy of Greed, headed by Gates and Microsoft

versus

The Legacy of Voluntary Contribution, as typified by Free Unix
sainthoods.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Frankly, I am so deeply impressed by the Linux movement, which may
have created an operating system with more development hours and
dollars behind it than any commercial OS in history, including
MIcrosoft's, all in so short a time.  I am also deeply impressed of
another movement that complements this, which is the web based
distribution of freeware and shareware.  Wedding both is a web based
system of voluntary software development.  

More and more, other systems will take notice of these two approaches.
 Already Be is inclined towards the latter.  A movement within the
OS/2 groups have strong sentiments to make OS/2 truly free to share
the Linux approach of development.  

Far less noticed by the press is that IBM had already silently
released OpenDOC into the source code public domain, as I heard.  Some
of the technologies in OD can be profound if it found a home in Linux
or any free OS.

If Linux or Free Unix is one shoe, the free browser is the other.  
There is an obvious opportunity in this---taking the source code of
both and welding it into one super NC/Web OS.  There is a third part
in what seems to be really a trinity, and that one is a free JAVA VM
(like Kaffe) for Linux and for the Free Unix movement.  Sun should see
and realize the full potential of what the combination and alignment
of all these forces can mean.

Rgds,

Chris

There is Chris' post.  To answer your question, HE said something about
sainthood.

Quote:> > Are there any examples of IBM releasing the source to any thing that they
> > are continuing to support?

> Not that I know of. So what is your point? You seem to be reading an
> awful lot into his post.

It sound to me like he is equating IBM's release of OpenDoc to the free
software mentality that is the defining characteristic of the Unix
community.

If this is his intention, my point is that I don't agree.  IBM held on
pretty tightly to OpenDoc up until they decided to no longer support it.

This is not sainthood.




--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy

-----------------------------------
 
 
 

Netscape: FREE! - MS's repsonse?? (was Netscape: FREE!)

Post by Tor Slettne » Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:00:00


    Loren>   Could Linux and GNUware in general be these hobbyists'
    Loren> revenge on Chairman Bill?

Not quite yet.  Linux is merely a little insect on his radar screen.
(After all, we are still talking about vastly different markets).

It is just a question of time before Linux becomes more userfriendly
(also for novices) than Windows, though.  Application support is
already pretty good, and more being created every day.  It's free,
and it's rock solid.

So gradually he will see some competition.

Incidentally, the official line from Microsoft regarding Netscape's
release of source code includes the statement that "Netscape will have
to spend a lot of effort ensuring the quality and security of
contributions".  To compare, Linux is both more secure and more stable
than Windows.

-tor

 
 
 

1. 'Free' Agent - I run for Free!

Even though it is a Windows program and Windows does not support
multi-threading, it already has the appearence of a pretty good
multi-threaded program - better than a lot of native OS/2 programs.
I'd like to make use of long filenames though.

--------------------

-------------------- fidonet:  2:246/8506.9

2. bell core verification

3. -)-> FREE <-(- Web Pages Hosted For 'Shareware Developers' -)-> FREE <-(-

4. Hyperlinks to files

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7. "Open" vs. "Closed" (was Re: Netscape: FREE!)

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11. OS/2 IAK with Netscape & Free Agent Newsreader?

12. eudora, Free Agent and Netscape in OS/2

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