Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Steven C. Den Best » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Now the other shoe drops: The Sun JavaStation will have a Citrix client
built in. Reality seems to be settling in, and the vendors are finally
realizing that Java-and-only-Java is not commercially viable.

http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980322S0003

'Sun will include a version of the Citrix client on the first generation of
JavaStations, and also will support Microsoft's Hydra Windows-based Terminal
Server, due out late in the second quarter.'

'Sun's Windows strategy for its network computer may be the final chapter in
the story of the NC's changing vision. Initially seen as devices that would
sweep Intel/Windows PCs off users' desktops, NCs and other thin clients are
emerging as replacements for terminals. Thin clients also are popular as
client devices for running Windows GUIs to access applications running on NT
servers.'

'"We recognize that customers may want to access Windows applications on an
occasional basis, and we recognize that the number of third-party Java
applications is small with regard to Windows," said Steve Tirado, director
of product marketing for the Java Systems Group at Sun.'

'Sun plans to try to sell its JavaStations to a type of user running what it
terms a "fixed-function" application--simple functionality that doesn't
change, such as hotel reservations, call centers or point-of-sale terminals.
Initial users of the NC will likely be using it for terminal emulation and
to access homegrown enterprise Java applications, Tirado said.'

--
Den Beste, Steven C.  "Our antitrust laws are designed

                       competitors." -- Sen. Orrin Hatch

"The OS/2 Feel-Bad Page"  http://world.std.com/~denbeste
     "Death of a Thousand Cuts" updated 9/16/97

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by boo.. » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00




Quote:>the story of the NC's changing vision. Initially seen as devices that
>would sweep Intel/Windows PCs off users' desktops, NCs and other thin
>clients are emerging as replacements for terminals.

--

Where on earth did this writer get the idea NCs were designed to sweep off the desktops?  Has the writer spent too much time in the newsgroups and not enough time in reality?  No one close to the NC product has, so far as I know, ever suggested that an NC will replace the secretary's word processor within 5 years, if then.  And everyone knows that the Status machine on boss's desks will only  get bigger and bigger.  (The beauty of those machines is that the switch settings can be set so they never fail.  "off" is the usual setting I believe.)

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Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Dennis Peterso » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



> Now the other shoe drops: The Sun JavaStation will have a Citrix client
> built in. Reality seems to be settling in, and the vendors are finally
> realizing that Java-and-only-Java is not commercially viable.

[snip]

> --
> Den Beste, Steven C.  "Our antitrust laws are designed

>                        competitors." -- Sen. Orrin Hatch

> "The OS/2 Feel-Bad Page"  http://world.std.com/~denbeste
>      "Death of a Thousand Cuts" updated 9/16/97

Sounds like Sun, as has IBM with OS/2, is attempting to accomodate all
the needs of the customer by providing support for applications from a
wide range of vendors. Of course, Sun has had Windows support for a long
time via WABI, and the Ultra 5 has Win32 application support, so this is
really nothing new. What is odd is your presentation of this
information, which is good news for the consumer, as a representation of
a failure of some kind on Sun's part. What other major vendors can you
name who are as accomodating? BeOS?

dp

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Bill Hous » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00


I think this is great news for users.  Now, instead of having to make a
pointless and costly decision between Windows apps or rebuilding everything,
they can make an intelligent choice that protects their investments.

Just think of all the bruhaha that could have been avoided if Sun had
supported Windows to begin with. <g>


>Now the other shoe drops: The Sun JavaStation will have a Citrix client
>built in. Reality seems to be settling in, and the vendors are finally
>realizing that Java-and-only-Java is not commercially viable.

>http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980322S0003

>'Sun will include a version of the Citrix client on the first generation of
>JavaStations, and also will support Microsoft's Hydra Windows-based
Terminal
>Server, due out late in the second quarter.'

>'Sun's Windows strategy for its network computer may be the final chapter
in
>the story of the NC's changing vision. Initially seen as devices that would
>sweep Intel/Windows PCs off users' desktops, NCs and other thin clients are
>emerging as replacements for terminals. Thin clients also are popular as
>client devices for running Windows GUIs to access applications running on
NT
>servers.'

>'"We recognize that customers may want to access Windows applications on an
>occasional basis, and we recognize that the number of third-party Java
>applications is small with regard to Windows," said Steve Tirado, director
>of product marketing for the Java Systems Group at Sun.'

>'Sun plans to try to sell its JavaStations to a type of user running what
it
>terms a "fixed-function" application--simple functionality that doesn't
>change, such as hotel reservations, call centers or point-of-sale
terminals.
>Initial users of the NC will likely be using it for terminal emulation and
>to access homegrown enterprise Java applications, Tirado said.'

>--
>Den Beste, Steven C.  "Our antitrust laws are designed

>                       competitors." -- Sen. Orrin Hatch

>"The OS/2 Feel-Bad Page"  http://world.std.com/~denbeste
>     "Death of a Thousand Cuts" updated 9/16/97

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Leapin Larr » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



Quote:

>'Sun will include a version of the Citrix client on the first generation of
>JavaStations, and also will support Microsoft's Hydra Windows-based Terminal
>Server, due out late in the second quarter.'

There will be a "transition phase" during which the ability to
run Windows apps (remotely) will be important. During this phase
users will be slowly weaned off Windows apps. When powerful Java
apps become available (as they inevitably will because there is
a market), the ability to run Windows apps will become less
important and eventually go away.

Quote:>'Sun's Windows strategy for its network computer may be the final chapter in
>the story of the NC's changing vision. Initially seen as devices that would
>sweep Intel/Windows PCs off users' desktops, NCs and other thin clients are
>emerging as replacements for terminals. Thin clients also are popular as
>client devices for running Windows GUIs to access applications running on NT
>servers.'

When an NC is used to replace a terminal it is also displacing
Windows. Without NCs those terminals would have been replaced
with PCs running Windows. The terminal replacement market had
been as source of new customers for Microsoft. Now no one will
ever think of replacing terminals with PCs.

Note that from the very offset the NC evangelists have said
that NCs will not replace PCs for all purposes. If you are an
architect using a PC for designing buildings then NCs will not
replace your PC for a long time to come. But if you are a
clerk using a PC for order entry then you ought to think about
chucking your PC and getting an NC instead.

Leapin Larry

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Glen Perkin » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00





>>the story of the NC's changing vision. Initially seen as devices that
>>would sweep Intel/Windows PCs off users' desktops, NCs and other thin
>>clients are emerging as replacements for terminals.
>--

>Where on earth did this writer get the idea NCs were designed to sweep off

the desktops?

From Larry Ellison, Scott McNealy, et al., I assume.

Quote:>Has the writer spent too much time in the newsgroups and not enough time in

reality?  No one close to the NC product has, so far as I know, ever
suggested that an NC will replace the secretary's word processor within 5
years, if then.

Of course they have. What was the point of Corel's Java-based Office Suite,
which included a Java version of WordPerfect, if not to be the new word
processor that that secretary would use when the NC replaced her PC?

Saying this, though, doesn't make me anti-NC. My dream is for all of my own
computing/communications devices to serve as gateways into a single virtual
environment, rather than being little self-contained environments that I
have to administer, configure, and synchronize individually and manually.
They always say that power users won't accept NCs because they want to
configure their own machines. Well, I'm a "power user", by most definitions,
and I have little desire to configure my own "machine." I want to configure
my own "environment", though. I want to be able to do anything from any
gateway--subject only to the different ergonomics and performance features
of the device--and to see those changes reflected whenever I access from any
other gateway.

We're moving in that direction, and Java will play a major role in it, but
so will Windows, it seems. If MS can bind Java and the Win32 APIs (in the
form of Windows Foundation Classes) together, we could see the realization
of the NC dream without it knocking Microsoft off center stage. While the
NCs, as initially proposed, were a great idea, IMO, they demand a sharp
break with current ways of doing things. Microsoft could come in with a
gradual path that leads in small steps from where we are today to the NC of
the future, with no sharp transitions along the way. By doing so, they could
deliver every benefit the NCs promised--except freedom from reliance on
Microsoft!

__Glen Perkins__

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Sr. Vrule » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00


I thought this was always a planned feature of the NC. Citrix was being
discussed vis-a-vis NC's for over a year now. What's the big deal? Citrix is
an licensable protocol that can be easily implemented in Java. Why
_wouldn't_ an NC OS vendor want to support Citrix if there target market
were customers needing to support legacy Windows apps?


Quote:>Now the other shoe drops: The Sun JavaStation will have a Citrix client
>built in. Reality seems to be settling in, and the vendors are finally
>realizing that Java-and-only-Java is not commercially viable.

>http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980322S0003

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Roedy Gree » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00


Leapin Larry asked, wrote, or quoted:

Quote:>But if you are a
>clerk using a PC for order entry then you ought to think about
>chucking your PC and getting an NC instead.

NCs may have another niche, people in companies who use the PC just for
simple word processing, spreadsheet and email, the market Lotus E-suite is
after.  Possible advantages of the NC are:

1. Features you don't use are not there to confuse.

2. simpler to administer, especially making sure updates are universally
installed.  It is a lot easier if everyone in the company is using same
version of the word processor.

3. cheaper software (one copy for the server only).

4. You can sit down at any NC in the company and be at home, with your
preferences following you.

5. easier to piecemeal upgrade hardware to more advanced architectures
without disruption.

6. more compact, eventually cheaper, workstations.

The big disadvantages are:

1. slow.  These things need very fast LANs to handle all the loading.

2. can't run any of the Win95 software. To do that, you need a PC that runs
a Java environment to co-exist with the NCs.

3. If the Java bubble bursts for political reasons (technically it is
sound) and apps don't materialise, you will have a pile of useless
hardware.

For the JAVA GLOSSARY and the CMP Utilities: http://oberon.ark.com/~roedy
--

Canadian Mind Products    contract programming     (250) 285-2954
POB 707 Quathiaski Cove   Quadra Island BC         Canada V0P 1N0
-30-

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by David H. McC » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



says...

Quote:> 2. simpler to administer, especially making sure updates are universally
> installed.  It is a lot easier if everyone in the company is using same
> version of the word processor.

> 3. cheaper software (one copy for the server only).

I don't the software will be cheaper because it is one version.  Other
wise, every would try to buy only 1 copy.  You will still have a per user
license.

--
-----------------------------------
David H. McCoy

-----------------------------------

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Steven C. Den Best » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



>Leapin Larry asked, wrote, or quoted:
>>But if you are a
>>clerk using a PC for order entry then you ought to think about
>>chucking your PC and getting an NC instead.

>NCs may have another niche, people in companies who use the PC just for
>simple word processing, spreadsheet and email, the market Lotus E-suite is
>after.  Possible advantages of the NC are:

>1. Features you don't use are not there to confuse.

>2. simpler to administer, especially making sure updates are universally
>installed.  It is a lot easier if everyone in the company is using same
>version of the word processor.

True, but that "everyone using the same thing" applies equally to something
like "Office".

Quote:>3. cheaper software (one copy for the server only).

That's not likely. Even when software is run from the server, it's usually
licensed by the number of users. The ISVs aren't fools; they're not going to
get anywhere selling one copy of something for $200 to be used by 100 users.

Quote:>4. You can sit down at any NC in the company and be at home, with your
>preferences following you.

That's available now for NT, too.

Quote:>5. easier to piecemeal upgrade hardware to more advanced architectures
>without disruption.

At the NCs? Most of them are sealed box. Upgrading servers will cause *more*
disruption, because when you bring the server down all the users on that
server are down.

Quote:>6. more compact, eventually cheaper, workstations.

It is no longer obvious that NCs will have a cheaper purchase price than
low-cost PCs.

Quote:>The big disadvantages are:

>1. slow.  These things need very fast LANs to handle all the loading.

I found a magnificent slide online about this labelled "The 7 fallacies of
distributed computing" at http://java.sun.com/people/jag/sd98/sld009.htm

What's more remarkable about it is that it's part of a slide show about
Java. The myths are:

1. The network is reliable.
2. Latency is zero
3. Bandwidth is infinite
4. The network is secure
5. Topology doesn't change
6. There is one administrator
7. Transport cost is zero

Quote:>2. can't run any of the Win95 software. To do that, you need a PC that runs
>a Java environment to co-exist with the NCs.

Or you need your NC to have some equivalent of the Citrix client, and a
decently powerful Citrix or Microsoft NT server on your network. (Doesn't
work for games, though...)

Quote:>3. If the Java bubble bursts for political reasons (technically it is
>sound) and apps don't materialise, you will have a pile of useless
>hardware.

Yes, and *this* is the hurdle of all hurdles.
 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by Steven C. Den Best » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00



>>Now the other shoe drops: The Sun JavaStation will have a Citrix client
>>built in. Reality seems to be settling in, and the vendors are finally
>>realizing that Java-and-only-Java is not commercially viable.

>>http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980322S0003


>I thought this was always a planned feature of the NC. Citrix was being
>discussed vis-a-vis NC's for over a year now. What's the big deal? Citrix
is
>an licensable protocol that can be easily implemented in Java. Why
>_wouldn't_ an NC OS vendor want to support Citrix if there target market
>were customers needing to support legacy Windows apps?

But not for the Sun JavaStation. That was going to be a Java-and-only-Java
platform which was going to run the gushing fountain of Java apps which were
going to have appeared by now. You weren't going to need any Windows apps.

The gush didn't happen (and there's no sign of it -- more like a trickle)
and as I said reality is setting in.

And this then puts the JavaStation and other Java-based NCs into exactly the
same position that OS/2 2.1 was in when WinOS/2 was added: If OS/2 can run
Win16 programs, then why would any vendor want to write a native app for
OS/2?

By developing a Win16 version instead, they not only reach the OS/2
audience, but also the wider Win 3.1 audience.

If NCs, including Java-based NCs, can run WIN32 applications, then why would
any vendor want to write a native Java app? By developing a WIN32 version
instead, they not only reach the NC audience, but also the wider WIN32
audience. (Which, leave us recall, includes Win 95.)

Some people consider WinOS/2 to have been the primary cause of the death of
the native OS/2 app market. In the short run, it made OS/2 itself more
attractive to customers and made it sell better. But at exactly the same
time it pulled the rug out from under the native developers.

Will this do exactly the same thing to those people out there trying to
develop Java apps? Only time will tell.

But there's one additional lesson to notice: When you argue "But Java apps
will be better than WIN32 apps," then you should remember that native OS/2
apps had the potential for being better than Win16 apps (because the native
API is better and cleaner than the Win16 API), but that didn't matter. OS/2
development dried up anyway.

"Those who forget the lessons of the past are condemned...'

 
 
 

Trouble in Paradise, part 3

Post by boo.. » Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:00:00




Quote:>The big disadvantages are:
>1. slow.  These things need very fast LANs to handle all the loading.

Fast LANS are here, now.

Quote:>2. can't run any of the Win95 software. To do that, you need a PC that
>runs a Java environment to co-exist with the NCs.

What Win95 applications do you want to run on an NC?  No manager in his
right mind is going to pull out the secretary's Pentium with Word and
replace it with an NC.  No manager in his right mind is going to pull the
50 terminals out of the bull pen and replace them with Pentiums.  Each to
its own.

Quote:>3. If the Java bubble bursts for political reasons (technically it is
>sound) and apps don't materialise, you will have a pile of useless
>hardware.

If it works, it works.  Why take it out?  If it doesn't work, don't
install it.

--
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1. Trouble in Paradise, part 2

http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,20281,00.html

'Hewlett-Packard (HWP) today announced plans to market its own Java virtual
machine, and said that Microsoft has licensed the technology for its Windows
CE operating system.'

'The announcement pits HP against Sun Microsystems, the creator of Java. HP
said it developed the virtual machine and a corresponding set of class
libraries independently of Sun. The company also said that it will market
the technology to other "select" companies.'

'Hewlett-Packard opted to act independently after getting fed up with what
the company viewed as excessive licensing fees that Sun is seeking for a
consumer-electronics version of Java, according to today's Wall Street
Journal.'

--
Den Beste, Steven C.  "Our antitrust laws are designed

                       competitors." -- Sen. Orrin Hatch

2. Win 3.1 driver for Tandy DMP 130?

3. Trouble in Paradise

4. ANN: English-Spanish dictionary

5. XGA-2 (IBM) and OS/2 - trouble in paradise!@#@!

6. FP2000 Forms: Email only NON-BLANK fields?

7. Palette manager: troubles, troubles, troubles!!

8. WTB: Sun IPC (or comparable Sparc)

9. OS/2 Trouble Part I

10. Help with PS part II (part 2 of 2)

11. win-OS/2 trouble and FP trouble!!!

12. Netscape sound plug-ins

13. Netscape plug-ins for OS/2?