HP:17-year customer confused

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Roger N Clar » Sun, 13 Feb 2000 04:00:00



I've been an HP and HP-UX user since 1984
(back in the 9000/500 days and HP-UX 2.0).  I really
like the products, the engineering and software
are quite solid.  I've always had great service,
both hardware and software.
I currently have a nice K250 with 2.6 Gbytes
of RAM, 500 Gigabytes of disk and all other
resources I need.  But what's happening to HP?

Last summer, I got a letter from HP saying my
700RX x-terminals (including the keyboards!) were
not Y2K compliant and would not be supported after
Dec 31, 1999.  OK--so I got $25k and bought new
X-terminals (plus more for expansion--over 20
x-terminals).  Guess what, the old x-terminals
(and the keyboards!) still work just fine!  And I wanted to
upgrade some less than 1-year old x-terminals
to 100-mbit ethernet cards--guess what: HP stopped
making X-terminals and I can't get the cards!
(what does this mean for parts?).

Then this week I get a letter from HP saying they
will no longer support fortran 77 after Dec 31, 2001.
Mine is a scientific group with a couple of hundred
thousand lines of fortran 77.  What am I to do?
HP is offering a free upgrade to fortran 90, but
I've heard f90 is not backward compatible with
f77 (anyone know about this or just how incompatible
it is?).

I used to have a great sales rep, but he got promoted.
I haven't been able to talk to a knowledgable rep in
the several years.  And when I have called with a question,
I've not gotten answers--often afte I ask the question, not
even a return call.  Don't they care to sell something?
In the past ~5 years I've not bought from HP--only 3rd
party vendors--they usually have some answers, but not all.

Go to HPs web site and try and find something.  It can be
quite difficult.  If you can find it, it probably is a really
great product.  (e.g. go try and find the largest fast-
wide differential disk drive for K-series servers--probably
takes at least 15 minutes unless you've got a bookmark or
know what all the management buzzwords about waht enterprize
computing are and how they will solve all your problems
(they don't even know what my problem is!).

How about a web site like a catalog?  HP's old catalogs
were quite easy to find stuff in.  Now you need the product
number to find it on the web, and even then it may be a page
that says how great the A123456A box is and how it will
solve all my problems, and never actually tell you what
an A123456A really is!

My problem is HP has become disconnected with the customers.
If they stop selling key products at the drop of a hat,
I have lost confidence in them.  Why should I invest
hundreds of thousands of dollars if I have no confidence
that a key product will no longer be available?

I have a number of scientist colleagues who bought HP
a decade+ ago, but for similar reasons,
essentially all have gone to other vendors--I've been
one of the last holdouts.

Can anyone email me the address of the president of HP?
Or sall I just plead for the engineers to fire all
the managers and take their company back?

Sorry for the long rant--I'm just hoping someone from
HP is listening--the products are really great.

Roger Clark

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by forc » Sun, 13 Feb 2000 04:00:00



: Last summer, I got a letter from HP saying my
: 700RX x-terminals (including the keyboards!) were
: not Y2K compliant and would not be supported after
: Dec 31, 1999.  OK--so I got $25k and bought new

They're probably just trying to legally cover themselves. As we know
Y2K was a bit of a non-event :)

: X-terminals (plus more for expansion--over 20
: x-terminals).  Guess what, the old x-terminals
: (and the keyboards!) still work just fine!  And I wanted to
: upgrade some less than 1-year old x-terminals
: to 100-mbit ethernet cards--guess what: HP stopped
: making X-terminals and I can't get the cards!
: (what does this mean for parts?).

Did you get the Envirex[sic] PCI based xterms? If so, you can use a
standard Intel PCI 10/100 ethernet card in them.

--
Cheers.

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by brimacom.. » Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:00


Quote:

> Last summer, I got a letter from HP saying my
> 700RX x-terminals (including the keyboards!) were
> not Y2K compliant and would not be supported after
> Dec 31, 1999.  OK--so I got $25k and bought new
> X-terminals (plus more for expansion--over 20
> x-terminals).  Guess what, the old x-terminals
> (and the keyboards!) still work just fine!

I have three old 700RX xterminals and they are working just fine!

  And I wanted to

Quote:> upgrade some less than 1-year old x-terminals
> to 100-mbit ethernet cards--guess what: HP stopped
> making X-terminals and I can't get the cards!
> (what does this mean for parts?).

Most people are in deep denial about X-terminals, they are just too big
a threat to the PC model.  I have 20 X-terminals and they have worked
very well for six years.

Microsoft has its Windows Terminal and Citrix has its MetaFrame product
but its hard to put alot of faith in these products.  HP used to push
its version of Windows Terminal which it called HP500.  I bought Ntrigue
which was an NT (3.51) version of Windows Terminal but I bailed when we
had to develop some serious Visual Basic (see
http://map1.agr.ca/scripts/esrimap.dll?name=Plant&Cmd=Map&Lang=En
 ).  It was hard enough to make the Visual Basic work never mind having
to worry about Ntrigue on top of everything else.

You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-terminal.

Quote:

> I used to have a great sales rep, but he got promoted.
> I haven't been able to talk to a knowledgable rep in
> the several years.  And when I have called with a question,
> I've not gotten answers--often afte I ask the question, not
> even a return call.  Don't they care to sell something?
> In the past ~5 years I've not bought from HP--only 3rd
> party vendors--they usually have some answers, but not all.

Part of the problem is there are more computing models than there ever
was,  used to be a company such as IBM, Digital or HP  had two basic
models: commercial or scientific.  Right now the computing companies are
knocking themselves out for ISPs,  scientific shops don't show up on
their radar.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Roger N Clar » Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:00



> You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-terminal.

Yes, but then you have to manage that linux box, including security.
X-terminals-you configure them once and they work for decades!
I don't want to manage another 20 unix (or NT or win98) boxes.
That would be a real hidden waste of money even if the
initial cost were half the x-terminal.

Roger Clark

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by brimacom.. » Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:00





> > You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an
X-terminal.

> Yes, but then you have to manage that linux box, including security.
> X-terminals-you configure them once and they work for decades!
> I don't want to manage another 20 unix (or NT or win98) boxes.
> That would be a real hidden waste of money even if the
> initial cost were half the x-terminal.

it would and it is

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Simon Water » Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:00


It is a long time since I did Fortran in anger.

If I remember correctly the f90 compiler handles f77 reasonably well. It had
some sort of switch for f77 style code layout (i.e. punch card
compatibility).

I seem to remember the f77 compiler from HP didn't correctly support some of
the more dubious aspects of the Fortran 77 standard anyway. But these were
so hideous only people with 100,000's of line of legacy code of Fortran 66
(or earlier) had to worry.

I seem to remember that the Fortran 77 standard was time limited in some
fashion, and is thus more dead than HP's compiler.

You always have the option of using the Gnu utilities to turn f77 into
object code via C. Might give you the source code for a 'compiler' of
sorts - if all you need is to keep the libraries ticking over.



I've been an HP and HP-UX user since 1984

Then this week I get a letter from HP saying they
will no longer support fortran 77 after Dec 31, 2001.
Mine is a scientific group with a couple of hundred
thousand lines of fortran 77.  What am I to do?
HP is offering a free upgrade to fortran 90, but
I've heard f90 is not backward compatible with
f77 (anyone know about this or just how incompatible
it is?).

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Tim Izo » Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:00


[snip]

Quote:> You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-terminal.

[snip]

        Though why you'd want to waste a perfectly good Linux box by
putting  CDE on it I don't know;) Afterstep over dtwm any day.
--
        Tim.


 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Bernard Chandle » Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:00:00






> > > You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an
> X-terminal.

> > Yes, but then you have to manage that linux box, including security.
> > X-terminals-you configure them once and they work for decades!
> > I don't want to manage another 20 unix (or NT or win98) boxes.

> > That would be a real hidden waste of money even if the
> > initial cost were half the x-terminal.

> it would and it is

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

I have been using VUE and cde and all sorts of emulation packages for
years. I forgot what an x-terminal looks like. Just curious,  makes
x-teminals now?

--
Bernie Chandler
http://www.nationwide.net/~bernie

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by D. Gerasimat » Wed, 16 Feb 2000 04:00:00





>> You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-terminal.

>Yes, but then you have to manage that linux box, including security.
>X-terminals-you configure them once and they work for decades!
>I don't want to manage another 20 unix (or NT or win98) boxes.
>That would be a real hidden waste of money even if the
>initial cost were half the x-terminal.

How do you handle the security issues inherent with X-terminals? Aren't
user passwords passing over the network in clear-text?

Dimitri

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Roger N Clar » Sun, 20 Feb 2000 04:00:00



> How do you handle the security issues inherent with X-terminals? Aren't
> user passwords passing over the network in clear-text?

It isn't any different than a telnet or ftp login is it?
My x-terminal boot is limited to local sub-nets, so nothing
goes out the building.

Roger Clark

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Olaf Michelsso » Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:00:00



> ...
> Then this week I get a letter from HP saying they
> will no longer support fortran 77 after Dec 31, 2001.
> Mine is a scientific group with a couple of hundred
> thousand lines of fortran 77.  What am I to do?
> HP is offering a free upgrade to fortran 90, but
> I've heard f90 is not backward compatible with
> f77 (anyone know about this or just how incompatible
> it is?).

Fortran77 is a subset of fortran90. This means, as long as
you coded in standard f77 everything works. Only if you used some
common extensions (like records, pointers ...) you have to recode
parts of it.
The newest standard, f95, does not longer support some features of f77,
thats true. However, the unsupported commands are only the really
ugly ones.
f90/f95 has very nice features. Once you used modules, allocatable
arrays and so on, you don't want code any longer in f77 :)

Olaf

--


 Faculty E/I   Dept. of Theoretical Electrical Engineering  
 Technical University of Ilmenau, Germany

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by D. Gerasimat » Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:00:00





>> ...
>> Then this week I get a letter from HP saying they
>> will no longer support fortran 77 after Dec 31, 2001.
>> Mine is a scientific group with a couple of hundred
>> thousand lines of fortran 77.  What am I to do?
>> HP is offering a free upgrade to fortran 90, but
>> I've heard f90 is not backward compatible with
>> f77 (anyone know about this or just how incompatible
>> it is?).

>Fortran77 is a subset of fortran90. This means, as long as
>you coded in standard f77 everything works. Only if you used some
>common extensions (like records, pointers ...) you have to recode
>parts of it.
>The newest standard, f95, does not longer support some features of f77,
>thats true. However, the unsupported commands are only the really
>ugly ones.
>f90/f95 has very nice features. Once you used modules, allocatable
>arrays and so on, you don't want code any longer in f77 :)

Some of us have to support millions of lines of code (not always clean!)
that were written over the past 30 years or so. Saying that some functions
are "ugly" or that they are "extensions" doesn't really help those of
us who don't have the resources to pore over the code, rewrite parts of
it, and then validate that it still works. HP is making a statement
here and in so doing I think they are neglecting some of the customers
who helped make them what they are. That's too bad.

Dimitri

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by Simon Water » Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:00:00




Quote:>HP is making a statement here and in so doing I think they are neglecting

some of the customers
who helped make them what they are. That's too bad.

Hello is that the Ford motor company?
I need a spare for a Model T?

HP have made clear their commitments to support appropriate current
standards. It is unrealistic to expect indefinite support of archaic
technology.

I don't think you'll have much problem supporting reasonably standard
conforming Fortran. It may be cost effective for large historic code bases
to buy the f77 source, or pay HP to maintain it, or maintain a third party
utilities like the GNU f77 tools, rather than maintaining their own code
base. By analogy the vintage car enthusiasts of the source code world.

 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by edw.. » Thu, 24 Feb 2000 04:00:00


I hear you loud and clear on the hp500 then ntrigue fiscao. $15k for
the hp500 then opps, deadend. But you can go with the future and
upgrade to ntrigue for only $8k. At least you were spared the news that
ntrigue went deadend also. But they did offer a whole about $1k off
terminal server/citrix NCR bundle. Mouthwash couldn't remove the bad
taste of that one...



> Microsoft has its Windows Terminal and Citrix has its MetaFrame
product
> but its hard to put alot of faith in these products.  HP used to push
> its version of Windows Terminal which it called HP500.  I bought
Ntrigue
> which was an NT (3.51) version of Windows Terminal but I bailed when
we
> had to develop some serious Visual Basic (see
> http://map1.agr.ca/scripts/esrimap.dll?name=Plant&Cmd=Map&Lang=En
>  ).  It was hard enough to make the Visual Basic work never mind
having
> to worry about Ntrigue on top of everything else.

> You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-
terminal.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

HP:17-year customer confused

Post by David H. Mab » Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:00:00


You might consider a product from SCO - Tarantella - we are evaluating
it for a variaty of task for clients.


> I hear you loud and clear on the hp500 then ntrigue fiscao. $15k for
> the hp500 then opps, deadend. But you can go with the future and
> upgrade to ntrigue for only $8k. At least you were spared the news that
> ntrigue went deadend also. But they did offer a whole about $1k off
> terminal server/citrix NCR bundle. Mouthwash couldn't remove the bad
> taste of that one...



> > Microsoft has its Windows Terminal and Citrix has its MetaFrame
> product
> > but its hard to put alot of faith in these products.  HP used to push
> > its version of Windows Terminal which it called HP500.  I bought
> Ntrigue
> > which was an NT (3.51) version of Windows Terminal but I bailed when
> we
> > had to develop some serious Visual Basic (see
> > http://map1.agr.ca/scripts/esrimap.dll?name=Plant&Cmd=Map&Lang=En
> >  ).  It was hard enough to make the Visual Basic work never mind
> having
> > to worry about Ntrigue on top of everything else.

> > You can run CDE on a Linux box for less than you can buy an X-
> terminal.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

--
David H. Mabo, CPCM
Certified HP Technical Professional
Adaptix Corp. - Cincinnati, Ohio