SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to rep » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 07:57:08



Why can I only cut and paste two lines into a DECterm which has a
process which logged in via SET HOST/LAT?  If I log in via TELNET, I can
cut and paste much more.
 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by labadi » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:06:20




Quote:> Why can I only cut and paste two lines into a DECterm which has a
> process which logged in via SET HOST/LAT?  If I log in via TELNET, I can
> cut and paste much more.

I can't reproduce that.
I have just put 4 pages of data on a Lat logged terminal.

To cut and paste much data, I do
click on a whole line beginning the intersting data
move to the end of the interesting data
I click the mouse while keeping the SHIFT

Vms version, decwindows version ... ?

Grard

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by lesl » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 20:53:45



: Why can I only cut and paste two lines into a DECterm which has a
: process which logged in via SET HOST/LAT?  If I log in via TELNET,
: I can cut and paste much more.
:

Try

   $ set terminal/hostsync

--Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own)

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by labadi » Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:33:31





> : Why can I only cut and paste two lines into a DECterm which has a
> : process which logged in via SET HOST/LAT?  If I log in via TELNET,
> : I can cut and paste much more.
> :

> Try

>    $ set terminal/hostsync

well spotted, that is a good reason for having a ridiculously low amount of
data in cut and paste.

grard

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Phillip Helbi » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:24:21


Quote:> > Try

> >    $ set terminal/hostsync

> well spotted, that is a good reason for having a ridiculously low amount
> of data in cut and paste.

Since /HOHOSTSYNC is the default, and I haven't changed it, that's
probably my problem.  I haven't checked this in detail yet, though.

However, since /NOHOSTSYNC is the default, presumably there is a reason
for this.  What problems could changing my personal default to
/NOHOSTSYNC bring me?

Why can I cut and paste more if I log in via telnet or just in a local
DECterm, but not via LAT?  Does this perhaps change the defaults?  (I
certainly don't have any procedures which modify this terminal
characteristic.)

I just tried SET TERM/NOHOSTSYNC in the DECterm into which I am pasting,
and a few lines (the output from SHOW TERMINAL, actually) COMPLETELY
HUNG the DECterm---I got rid of it via STOP/ID (I forgot to try if File
Exit in the menu bar worked).  With LAT, it just copies a couple of
lines and beeps a lot.

I'll do some more extensive tests later.

While I'm on the topic: I always use a VT320 as the console.  I usually
use a DEC423 cable.  This has always worked fine.  On a new (for me)
VAX, however, the keyboard input isn't even echoed properly until a SET
TERM/INQUIRE is done.  However, SET HOST/LAT or TELNET to the same
machine will set things aright.  I'm pretty sure that the terminal
itself is set up the same as my other console terminals.

What determines the "initial" terminal setting?

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Michael Moron » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 03:45:30



Quote:>Why can I only cut and paste two lines into a DECterm which has a
>process which logged in via SET HOST/LAT?  If I log in via TELNET, I can
>cut and paste much more.

You are running out of typeahead buffer size (default=78 characters).  You
can either crank SYSGEN parameter TTY_TYPAHDSZ to be a large number, or
better yet, enable TTY_ALTYPAHD for LAT devices (LTAx:) only and crank
TTY_ALTYPAHD to a larger number (default=200 characters).  Unfortunately
I don't know how to make lat devices use the alt typeahead size (by default
that is not by running some program for each lat device created)
--
-Mike
 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by JF Meze » Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:00:33



> Why can I cut and paste more if I log in via telnet or just in a local
> DECterm, but not via LAT?  Does this perhaps change the defaults?  (I
> certainly don't have any procedures which modify this terminal
> characteristic.)

Well, I don't know why cutting would be different, as this would be done by
decterm with data already received and in decterm's buffer.

Could it be because LAT implements no flow control and assumes that the host
will send <ctrl-S><ctrl-Q> as part of the data stream to the terminal to
throttle inbound data ?

As I recall, TCPIP and DECNET would have some form of flow control since the
lack of an ack will eventually cause flow to stop once the window is filled.

Is the above correct ?

One thing I have noticed with LAT though is that a <CTRL-Y> doesn't take
immediate action. Text continues to flow a LOT until you see the *INTERRUPT*.
My guess is that the remote host is sending data via LAT to the local host as
fats as it can, with the local host buffering to flow more slowly to the
terminal, so when you press CTRL-Y, the remote host has already sent a
gazillion bytes.

I guess DECNET's CTERM is more sophisticated than SET HOST/LAT in terms of
terminal control.

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by jlsu » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 05:21:46


On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 17:24:21 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig


>Since /HOHOSTSYNC is the default, and I haven't changed it, that's
>probably my problem.  I haven't checked this in detail yet, though.

/HOHO-STSYNC - This qualifier allows one to synchronize with snack cakes.
 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by John Santo » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:38:19



> > > Try

> > >    $ set terminal/hostsync

> > well spotted, that is a good reason for having a ridiculously low amount
> > of data in cut and paste.

> Since /HOHOSTSYNC is the default, and I haven't changed it, that's
> probably my problem.  I haven't checked this in detail yet, though.

> However, since /NOHOSTSYNC is the default, presumably there is a reason
> for this.  What problems could changing my personal default to
> /NOHOSTSYNC bring me?

/HOSTSYNC causes the system to send an XOFF to the terminal if the
input buffer gets full (and an XON once the buffer starts to empty
out again.)  If the terminal is incapable of processing a received
XOFF/XON, it can wedge if the system sends it one.  IIRC, the last
DEC terminals that didn't work with /HOSTSYNC were the VT52 and LA36...
The VT100 and LA120 do support /HOSTSYNC.  So /NOHOSTSYNC is the
default because it was the default on VMS V1.0...

VT52 and LA36 and older couldn't send data faster than you could
type it, so it wasn't really an issue, so there lack of outbound
flow control.  If you typed ahead too much, VMS would just send
beeps at you.

VT100 and LA36 and later could send much more data: Answerbacks,
long ANSI-mode status messages, possibly screen-scrapes, etc.
So they were more likely to be able to overflow the input buffer.

It shouldn't break anything to set it to /HOSTSYNC in your login.com,
unless you are really using ancient terminals.

BTW, I am 99% sure that SET TERM/INQUIRE on a VT100 or later sets
/HOSTSYNC.

Quote:

> Why can I cut and paste more if I log in via telnet or just in a local
> DECterm, but not via LAT?  Does this perhaps change the defaults?  (I
> certainly don't have any procedures which modify this terminal
> characteristic.)

DECTERM (and CTERM) propagate the terminal characteristics from the
local system.  I don't think telnet does this, but it might for
characteristics that map directly to Unix characteristics.  SET
HOST/LAT doesn't propagate the terminal settings.  Or maybe you
have a set terminal/inquire in your login.com or in sys$sylogin
that executes on DECTerms and telnet terminals, but is skipped for
batch jobs and LAT terminals?

Quote:> I just tried SET TERM/NOHOSTSYNC in the DECterm into which I am pasting,
> and a few lines (the output from SHOW TERMINAL, actually) COMPLETELY
> HUNG the DECterm---I got rid of it via STOP/ID (I forgot to try if File

Expected, but maybe you could have cleared it using the "clear
communications" item on the "Commands" drop-down menu in DECTerm?

Quote:> Exit in the menu bar worked).  With LAT, it just copies a couple of
> lines and beeps a lot.

VMS beeps on input buffer overruns.

Quote:> I'll do some more extensive tests later.

> While I'm on the topic: I always use a VT320 as the console.  I usually
> use a DEC423 cable.  This has always worked fine.  On a new (for me)
> VAX, however, the keyboard input isn't even echoed properly until a SET
> TERM/INQUIRE is done.  However, SET HOST/LAT or TELNET to the same
> machine will set things aright.  I'm pretty sure that the terminal
> itself is set up the same as my other console terminals.

Hold it...  You try to log in on the console terminal (OPA0:) and
echoing doesn't work until you log into the system with a set host/lat
or telnet from another system?  Or do you mean you type blind at the
console to log in and then "telnet localhost" or "set host/lat 0",
and then the console seems to start working right?  In the 1st case,
something is really bogus since login in should only affect the
terminal you are using.  In the second case, it points to a "SET TERM/INQ"
or explicit "SET TERM/xxx" in login.com or sys$sylogin that don't
always get executed when they should.  (Maybe improper conditionalization
that is supposed to prevent them from being executed in batch and/or
network server processes, that is mistakenly also excluding other
interactive logins?)

Quote:> What determines the "initial" terminal setting?

SYSGEN parameters TTY_DEFCHAR and TTY_DEFCHAR2, which are bitmaps,
so to use them, you need to look up the various TT$M_xxxx and
TT2$M_xxxx values and .OR. them together.  (Defined in $TTDEF and
$TT2DEF macros.)

For some terminals that are cloned from a template device, you
can SET TERMINAL xxA0:/whatever, where xxA0: is the template
for the particular type of terminal (e.g. LTA0: for LAT, or
NTA0: for TCPWare telnet terminals, TNA0: for UCX telnet terminals,
etc.)  I don't think this works for all cloned terminals but
depends on whether the particular port driver copies the settings
from the template device or uses other methods, such as logical
names, to set them.

--
John Santos
Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
781-861-0670 ext 539

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Martin Vorlaend » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:28:50



> [...] Unfortunately
> I don't know how to make lat devices use the alt typeahead size (by
> default that is not by running some program for each lat device created)

Errr... What about SET TERMINAL /ALTYPAHD ?

cu,
  Martin
--
                     | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer

to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/

 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Phillip Helbi » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 22:04:11


Quote:> > While I'm on the topic: I always use a VT320 as the console.  I usually
> > use a DEC423 cable.  This has always worked fine.  On a new (for me)
> > VAX, however, the keyboard input isn't even echoed properly until a SET
> > TERM/INQUIRE is done.  However, SET HOST/LAT or TELNET to the same
> > machine will set things aright.  I'm pretty sure that the terminal
> > itself is set up the same as my other console terminals.

> Hold it...  You try to log in on the console terminal (OPA0:) and
> echoing doesn't work until you log into the system with a set host/lat
> or telnet from another system?  Or do you mean you type blind at the
> console to log in and then "telnet localhost" or "set host/lat 0",
> and then the console seems to start working right?  

It IS echoed, but not PROPERLY.

Quote:> In the 1st case,
> something is really bogus since login in should only affect the
> terminal you are using.  In the second case, it points to a "SET TERM/INQ"
> or explicit "SET TERM/xxx" in login.com or sys$sylogin that don't
> always get executed when they should.  (Maybe improper conditionalization
> that is supposed to prevent them from being executed in batch and/or
> network server processes, that is mistakenly also excluding other
> interactive logins?)

Could be something like this; I'll check.
 
 
 

SET HOST/LAT and cut and paste with DECwindows

Post by Michael Moron » Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:11:41


[not sure if my last note made it]



>> [...] Unfortunately
>> I don't know how to make lat devices use the alt typeahead size (by
>> default that is not by running some program for each lat device created)
>Errr... What about SET TERMINAL /ALTYPAHD ?

Sounds good in theory, but you must issue the SET TERMINAL /ALTYPAHD
*before* you do any I/O.  Fine in the old days when terminals were
hardwired and you could issue the command in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM for
terminals with "funny" things connected to them.  But nowadays
pseudoterminals get created and immediately used.  Click on the terminal
icon and you get a new FTAx: device with a process on it.  In addition,
SET HOST/LAT also creates/uses a LTAx: device for the connection, maybe it
needs the /ALTYPAHD too.

(SET HOST/SET HOST/LAT use tricks to do its I/O with little overhead,
these tricks require the typeahead buffer.  I found out about this when
I tried implementing similar code on a microvax II and found single
character at a time QIOs couldn't keep up with a 9600 baud line)
--
-Mike

 
 
 

1. Decwindows and X emacs window: cutting and pasting

I am running emacs on an Ultrix machine and using the Decwindows
display on a VMS workstation. The emacs X support works fine *except*
that I can't copy from any of the DecTerm windows into the emacs
window, and vice versa. I have no trouble copying to and from an Xterm
window. And I have no problem copying back and forth from the Xterm to
the Decterm.

The symptoms are as follows:
If I mark text in the Decterm, I can select an XTerm and transfer
the text with shift-middle button. However, if I mark text in the
Decterm and then select the emacs window, shift-right button does
nothing.

If I cut text from the emacs window with shift-middle button, I can
insert it in the Xterm with shift-middle button. I can also insert it
in the emacs buffer with shift-right button. But I can't find any
button combination which inserts the text in the Decterm.

Is there a way to work around this problem?

Send answers to me directly and I will summarize.

Don Katz

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