Very Computer

by **Du M** » Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:05:07

This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
system with their SYSTEM account moved?
Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.

Any comment are welcomed.

by **Arne Vajhoe** » Wed, 16 Nov 1994 17:18:50

Quote:> This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
> moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
> I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
> system with their SYSTEM account moved?
> Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
> observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
> of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
> as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.

> Any comment are welcomed.

Do not do it !

You will experience all kinds of weird problems with software installation
and software startup procedures, that was not written to handle this.

And I can not beleive that the benefits can outweigh the risk for serious
problems. The system-managers personal stuff do not belong on the SYSTEM
acoount, but on a seperate personal account. Good system-managers have
a distinct risk aversion (they only take risks if there are significant
benefits, and eventhen they do not like it !).

Arne

Arne Vajh?j local DECNET: KO::ARNE
Computer Department PSI: PSI%238310013040::ARNE

WWW URL: http://www.hhs.dk/~arne/arne.html

by **Douglas W. O'Ne** » Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:06:36

: > This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
: > moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
: > I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
: > system with their SYSTEM account moved?
: > Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
: > observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
: > of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
: > as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.
: >
: > Any comment are welcomed.

: Do not do it !

: You will experience all kinds of weird problems with software installation
: and software startup procedures, that was not written to handle this.

I've had the SYSTEM account sys$login set to sys$sysdevice:[sysmgr] a couple
of systems for quite a while and I have installed numerous DEC layered
products and multiple third-party product. I have never seen any weird
problems with either software installation or software startup. Care to
list any specific software that has problems with this?

: And I can not beleive that the benefits can outweigh the risk for serious
: problems. The system-managers personal stuff do not belong on the SYSTEM
: acoount, but on a seperate personal account. Good system-managers have
: a distinct risk aversion (they only take risks if there are significant
: benefits, and eventhen they do not like it !).

One major (IMHO) benefit is that sys$login is then a single directory
consistent for all nodes in a cluster. I don't have to remember to make
sure my files are in sys$common instead of sys$specific for other nodes
to see them.

Good system managers do have a distinct risk aversion. Given that there are
several routine operations that require system privs to operate and that the
system account was designed to these operations, I use the system account on
a daily basis. I prefer to work in an area that will not*up the system
startup files if a mistake is made.

Doug
--
Dr. Douglas O'Neal, Senior Systems Programmer, Johns Hopkins University

"Hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers" - Joan Baez

by **Laurelin of Middle Ear** » Thu, 17 Nov 1994 00:47:53

In the continuing discussion of:

Quote:> > This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
> > moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
> > I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
> > system with their SYSTEM account moved?
> > Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
> > observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
> > of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
> > as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.

> > Any comment are welcomed.

Many people have said not to do it. I disagree -- to a point.

On several clusters that I have managed, I have modified the SYSTEM
account to log in to SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] rather than SYS$MANAGER.
Granted, this isn't *too* much of a move, but it is quite helpful in a
large cluster environment. (Remember to manually move the MAIL.DIR from
SYS$SPECIFIC to SYS$COMMON!!)

We never experienced any problems with this, not in software installation,
not in startup command procedures, nothing.

I do not have any recommendations as far as moving the system account
further than this.

-- lauri
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Lauri Loebel Carpenter "All that is gold does not glitter, |

| #include <std.disclaimer> /* I only speak for myself */ |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/

by **Arne Vajhoe** » Thu, 17 Nov 1994 17:56:27

Quote:> : > This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
> : > moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
> : > I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
> : > system with their SYSTEM account moved?
> : > Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
> : > observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
> : > of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
> : > as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.
> : >
> : > Any comment are welcomed.

> : Do not do it !

> : You will experience all kinds of weird problems with software installation
> : and software startup procedures, that was not written to handle this.

> I've had the SYSTEM account sys$login set to sys$sysdevice:[sysmgr] a couple
> of systems for quite a while and I have installed numerous DEC layered
> products and multiple third-party product. I have never seen any weird
> problems with either software installation or software startup. Care to
> list any specific software that has problems with this?

Since I have never done it, then I have ofcourse never had any problems with
it and can not supply you with a list.

It is very simple to imagine what could go wrong, just use SYS$LOGIN as
an alias for SYS$MANAGER in the installation procedure and voila !

- Show quoted text -

Quote:> : And I can not beleive that the benefits can outweigh the risk for serious
> : problems. The system-managers personal stuff do not belong on the SYSTEM
> : acoount, but on a seperate personal account. Good system-managers have
> : a distinct risk aversion (they only take risks if there are significant
> : benefits, and eventhen they do not like it !).

> One major (IMHO) benefit is that sys$login is then a single directory
> consistent for all nodes in a cluster. I don't have to remember to make
> sure my files are in sys$common instead of sys$specific for other nodes
> to see them.

> Good system managers do have a distinct risk aversion. Given that there are
> several routine operations that require system privs to operate and that the
> system account was designed to these operations, I use the system account on
> a daily basis. I prefer to work in an area that will not*up the system
> startup files if a mistake is made.

Your choice. I (and to my best knowledge many others) prefer a seperate
system-manager account witH SETPRV for doing the "small" system-manager
tasks and only using SYSTEM for the "big" ones.

I will still not recommend changing SYS$LOGIN for the SYSTEM account !

Arne

Arne Vajh?j local DECNET: KO::ARNE
Computer Department PSI: PSI%238310013040::ARNE

WWW URL: http://www.veryComputer.com/~arne/arne.html

by **Tim Llewellyn, (02** » Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:38:47

>This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
>moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
> I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
> system with their SYSTEM account moved?
> Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
>observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
>of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
>as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.

>Any comment are welcomed.

Put your system account back where it belongs, and set up another account
in group 1 (we use SYS_ prefix for the username) for each person who has
privs on the system. If you need to forward system mail to more than one of
these at time you need pmdf or something like that too. I agree with everyone
else who has told you that what you are suggesting is a bad thing full stop.
-----------------------------------------------------+------------------+
Tim Llewellyn - OpenVMS, Soukous and Cricket * |Hey, and get wise |
Physicist Programmer, Bristol Uni Particle Physics. | to the sounds of |

I speak for me and noone else OK (and I might even | Soukous Makossa |
change my mind sometimes!-) Atari and EMagic user too| Mbalax Rumba...|
-----------------------------------------------------+------------------+
I neither love OpenVMS nor hate OSF/1, for they are both just tools I use

by **Richard Levit** » Sat, 19 Nov 1994 08:25:17

It is very simple to imagine what could go wrong, just use SYS$LOGIN as
an alias for SYS$MANAGER in the installation procedure and voila !

What installation procedure? VMSINSTAL? KITINSTAL.COM? That would mean
you *have* to run VMSINSTAL from the SYSTEM, something that I only do when
I have to upgrade VMS. I have had no problems whatsoever so far.

--
!++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++!
! Richard Levitte, GNU on VMS hacker ! tel: +46-8-83 12 15 !
! S?dra L?nggatan 39, II ! fax: none for the moment !

! SWEDEN ! !
!--<a href="http://www.e.kth.se/elev/levitte/gnu/gnu.html">GNUish VMS</a>--!

by **Stephen Hoffm** » Thu, 17 Nov 1994 05:49:01

|>: > This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
|>: > moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
|>: > I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
|>: > system with their SYSTEM account moved?
|>: > Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
|>: > observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
|>: > of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
|>: > as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.
|>: >
|>: > Any comment are welcomed.
|>
|>: Do not do it !
|>
|>: You will experience all kinds of weird problems with software installation
|>: and software startup procedures, that was not written to handle this.
|>
|>I've had the SYSTEM account sys$login set to sys$sysdevice:[sysmgr] a couple
|>of systems for quite a while and I have installed numerous DEC layered
|>products and multiple third-party product. I have never seen any weird
|>problems with either software installation or software startup. Care to
|>list any specific software that has problems with this?
|>
|>: And I can not beleive that the benefits can outweigh the risk for serious
|>: problems. The system-managers personal stuff do not belong on the SYSTEM
|>: acoount, but on a seperate personal account. Good system-managers have
|>: a distinct risk aversion (they only take risks if there are significant
|>: benefits, and eventhen they do not like it !).
|>
|>One major (IMHO) benefit is that sys$login is then a single directory
|>consistent for all nodes in a cluster. I don't have to remember to make
|>sure my files are in sys$common instead of sys$specific for other nodes
|>to see them.
|>
|>Good system managers do have a distinct risk aversion. Given that there are
|>several routine operations that require system privs to operate and that the
|>system account was designed to these operations, I use the system account on
|>a daily basis. I prefer to work in an area that will not*up the system
|>startup files if a mistake is made.
|>
|>Doug
|>--
|>Dr. Douglas O'Neal, Senior Systems Programmer, Johns Hopkins University

|>"Hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers" - Joan Baez

Speaking only as a member of OpenVMS engineering, I would *not*
relocate the SYSTEM login directory.

------------------------------ Opinionative -------------------------------

OpenVMS Engineering, Digital Equipment Corporation, Nashua NH

by **Ron F** » Thu, 17 Nov 1994 01:34:10

--
Seems like the easier/safer route is to build a second account called
e.g. MANAGER with all the privs of SYSTEM and possibly even the same UIC
and have it log into the 'other home directory'. Then leave SYSTEM the
H**L alone and use it for e.g. system installations.

Ron

|>Path: msuinfo!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!news.mathworks.com!udel!darwin.sura.net!jhunix1.hcf.jhu.edu!jhuvms!doug

|>Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
|>Subject: Re: Q: How many system have their SYSTEM account moved?
|>Date: Tue, 15 Nov 94 08:06:36 EST
|>Organization: Homewood Academic Computing - The Johns Hopkins University
|>Lines: 45

|>NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.220.2.38
|>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
|>
|>: > This is the continue of my previous Q: "what is the consequence of
|>: > moving the SYSTEM login directory?".
|>: > I wonder : Are there some one else running the VMS
|>: > system with their SYSTEM account moved?
|>: > Anyway, I am the one who has this setting. Up till now, we hadn't
|>: > observed any releated problems yet. Of course, we have quite some
|>: > of commands file for adapting the command that assume the SYS$MANAGER
|>: > as defalt directory. And have the SYS$MANAGER:LOGIN.COM moved also.
|>: >
|>: > Any comment are welcomed.
|>
|>: Do not do it !
|>
|>: You will experience all kinds of weird problems with software installation
|>: and software startup procedures, that was not written to handle this.
|>
|>I've had the SYSTEM account sys$login set to sys$sysdevice:[sysmgr] a couple
|>of systems for quite a while and I have installed numerous DEC layered
|>products and multiple third-party product. I have never seen any weird
|>problems with either software installation or software startup. Care to
|>list any specific software that has problems with this?
|>
|>: And I can not beleive that the benefits can outweigh the risk for serious
|>: problems. The system-managers personal stuff do not belong on the SYSTEM
|>: acoount, but on a seperate personal account. Good system-managers have
|>: a distinct risk aversion (they only take risks if there are significant
|>: benefits, and eventhen they do not like it !).
|>
|>One major (IMHO) benefit is that sys$login is then a single directory
|>consistent for all nodes in a cluster. I don't have to remember to make
|>sure my files are in sys$common instead of sys$specific for other nodes
|>to see them.
|>
|>Good system managers do have a distinct risk aversion. Given that there are
|>several routine operations that require system privs to operate and that the
|>system account was designed to these operations, I use the system account on
|>a daily basis. I prefer to work in an area that will not*up the system
|>startup files if a mistake is made.
|>
|>Doug
|>--
|>Dr. Douglas O'Neal, Senior Systems Programmer, Johns Hopkins University

|>"Hypothetical questions get hypothetical answers" - Joan Baez
|>

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