Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by paul.beaud.. » Wed, 29 May 2002 17:10:47



I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is some?!?

Paul

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Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Roy Omon » Wed, 29 May 2002 17:38:28



> I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
> Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is some?!?

I am also aware of a large customer actively considering
the establishment of a new data centre in Raleigh (NC)
based on a cluster of 6 fully populated ES45's running
VMS and Oracle.  This customer currently uses Oracle
on Tru64, running on a mixture of GS and ES machines
in this country (UK).  They are *extremely* impressed
by the stability of their (small number) of VMS machines
used as an archive/retrieval system for their Tru64
environment, and would love to get the same ballpark
stability (I designed and implemented the archive
system, of course using VMS :-)  This is a system
potentially generating 200,000 *files* per day.  Started
off 5 years ago running on a cluster of VAX 4000-705's,
now on a split-site cluster of DS10's with oodles of
storage.  The VAXen were finally switched off last
month, and the cluster has been up pretty much the
whole of the 5 years.

Roy Omond
Blue Bubble Ltd.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by JF Meze » Wed, 29 May 2002 18:17:32



> I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.

Are they existing VMS shops ?

Are they adding new applications or just growing existing applications ?

And more importantly, are all the VPs in that organisation aware of the
success of VMS and its importance inside their organisation, or do most
believe that VMS is dead, not realising it still plays an important role
inside your organisation ?

I have dealt with organisations in your industry whose high level people were
obviously unaware of the role of VMS inside their own organisation and told me
in no uncertain words that I had no future with them if I presented a solution
based on any Digital product (that was before the Compaq buyout of DEC).

As long as those attitudes persist at high levels, it means that VMS will
remain only a niche inside such large organisations.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Steve.Spi.. » Wed, 29 May 2002 20:01:16


Well, this is all well and good and all that, but do they want any staff,
and if they do where are the jobs advertised! Can you tell me who they are
and if they accept cold calling?

I'm as happy as the next man that some sites are still buying VMS, but
unless they need new or additional staff, and are preferably located
somewhere in the UK they might as well have just bought something else from
my point of view!

Cheers anyway!

Steve S



cc:

Re: Memo:  Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...


> I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
> Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is

some?!?

I am also aware of a large customer actively considering
the establishment of a new data centre in Raleigh (NC)
based on a cluster of 6 fully populated ES45's running
VMS and Oracle.  This customer currently uses Oracle
on Tru64, running on a mixture of GS and ES machines
in this country (UK).  They are *extremely* impressed
by the stability of their (small number) of VMS machines
used as an archive/retrieval system for their Tru64
environment, and would love to get the same ballpark
stability (I designed and implemented the archive
system, of course using VMS :-)  This is a system
potentially generating 200,000 *files* per day.  Started
off 5 years ago running on a cluster of VAX 4000-705's,
now on a split-site cluster of DS10's with oodles of
storage.  The VAXen were finally switched off last
month, and the cluster has been up pretty much the
whole of the 5 years.

Roy Omond
Blue Bubble Ltd.

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Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Roy Omon » Wed, 29 May 2002 20:19:09



> Well, this is all well and good and all that, but do they want any staff,
> and if they do where are the jobs advertised! Can you tell me who they are
> and if they accept cold calling?

Nope, I cannot tell you who they are.  I'm keeping this option open
for myself.  I doubt they would advertise anyway;  I have a good
relationship with this particular company, and any new position
would be offered to me (and in this country :-)

Quote:> I'm as happy as the next man that some sites are still buying VMS, but
> unless they need new or additional staff, and are preferably located
> somewhere in the UK they might as well have just bought something else from
> my point of view!

Problem with VMS is that it requires so few staff to keep it running.
Better to have a small number of stars than a whole herd of MCSE's
and a whole lot cheaper too.

Roy Omond
Blue Bubble Ltd.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Tim Llewelly » Wed, 29 May 2002 22:50:42



> I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
> Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is some?!?

> Paul

Do they need a contractor? Are they trying to hire boys for mens wages
like the rest of the market? (not meant to be a sexist comment, just rolls
of the tongue better then gender neutral version).

Regards,

--


 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Tim Llewelly » Wed, 29 May 2002 22:54:17



> Problem with VMS is that it requires so few staff to keep it running.
> Better to have a small number of stars than a whole herd of MCSE's
> and a whole lot cheaper too.

yup, this is a real issue,  it might be better for us but non-technical
management don't like dealing with such "stars".

--


 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by David J. Dachter » Thu, 30 May 2002 11:42:20




> > I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> > institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
> > Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is some?!?

> I am also aware of a large customer actively considering
> the establishment of a new data centre in Raleigh (NC)
> based on a cluster of 6 fully populated ES45's running
> VMS and Oracle.

Any chance either of you can name names? It would go a long way toward
bolstering the credibility of such statements.

At the very least, can you say "a major (industry name) concern" or "a
fortune {10|100|1000} company"?

This stealth nonsense is KILLING us!

--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by David J. Dachter » Thu, 30 May 2002 11:44:30




> > I can also confirm some good news. I am aware of at least 2 large
> > institutions that are expanding in the VMS area.
> > Let's have some good news in this forum sometimes - surely there is some?!?

> > Paul

> Do they need a contractor? Are they trying to hire boys for mens wages
> like the rest of the market? (not meant to be a sexist comment, just rolls
> of the tongue better then gender neutral version).

Try: "Are they trying to hire senior people for recent-grad wages?"

--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by JF Meze » Thu, 30 May 2002 12:41:06



> Any chance either of you can name names? It would go a long way toward
> bolstering the credibility of such statements.

The original poster has an email adress belonging to a british bank whose name
would lead one to believe it was based in Hong Kong and Shanghai. So it is
likely that his information would be about another bank.

I personally know that Barclays in Coventry had some VMS. Not sure if it still
has it. Of the other banks, the VPs with whom I had contacts with (including
HSBC) all had been brainwashed into thinking VMS was dead. This included
ABM-Amro, Citibank and Bankers Trust (which was bought by Deutche Bank).

Since I was personally screwed by those VPs who acted in a less than ethical
manner, I have no problem mentioning their bank names. My only comfort is that
the Citibank VP retired rather quickly at the time that the SEC started to
investigate that bank for allowing money laundering by the russian mafia.

This was at about the same time where it was revealed that Morgan Stanley had
hired someone to falsify books and then have one employee arrested and sent to
prison for fraud. Seems that they didn't have the guts to fire him for having
appeared * in a gay magazine. The employee was smarter than they thought
and he hired a PI who uncovered the deed.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by John E. Malmber » Thu, 30 May 2002 12:30:50


 > Any chance either of you can name names? It would go a long way
 > toward bolstering the credibility of such statements.
 >
 > At the very least, can you say "a major (industry name) concern" or
 > "a fortune {10|100|1000} company"?

Many companies consider information about their I.T. resources to be of
strategic value, and do not want this information given out.

And a consultant must respect client confidentiality agreements.
Even those for potential or past clients.

And consider that everyone in this newsgroup / mailing list is a
potential customer or employer of any poster.

My former employer told me on my exit interview, that I may not reveal
how many computers were on the site, or exactly what they are doing.
There are a lot of things that I am not allowed to say about the success
  or failures of products at that site.

Even giving the fortune rating of a company can be a problem.

Unless you get official permission of what ever corporate spokesman is
responsible, an employee or consultant must not say anything.

U.S. Government agencies are generally prohibited from endorsing any
specific product and must be vendor neutral in appearance.  Occasionally
one of their contractors can make a statement though.

 > This stealth nonsense is KILLING us!

Nothing stealth about it.

It appears that there is a strict protocol required by the lawyers for
giving out information about customers.

-John

Personal Opinion Only

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by JF Meze » Thu, 30 May 2002 16:45:08



> My former employer told me on my exit interview, that I may not reveal
> how many computers were on the site, or exactly what they are doing.

There are VP in some of the world's largest banks for whom getting such
agreement (as well as an agreement not to reveal any of the confidential
information one would have processed during a 15 year contract) was not
important and just terminated a contract without any legal protection (and
consider that they allowed such a contract to go on for 15 years without an
NDA).  This is most interesting when you consider that such a VP was in charge
of corporate security.

There are many "informal" links that exist between senior VPs of various
banks, at many levels. And when such links call for exchange of information,
the staff below those VPs just comply and send/receive information with their
peers without asking any questions, assuming that the VPs have dealt with all
the data protection issues, but the VPs just assume that it was done and don't
bother checking.

This is especially true in certain areas of banks that already exchange
sensitive information with other organisations and don't see anything wrong
with adding one more correspondant to their list and just assume that the
methods to exchange such information are secure.

You would think bank auditors would catch this. But if there are no records
inside that bank of any of that bank's information leaving their premises, and
the auditors are told by staff that they only receive information through that
"pipe", then they don't investigate further. And consider that those VPs are
high enough to get authorisations to get a dial-up line and modem to access
the outside service, even though normal employees at a bank would never be
allowed for data-security reasons.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Chris Barde » Thu, 30 May 2002 21:34:48




> > Problem with VMS is that it requires so few staff to keep it running.
> > Better to have a small number of stars than a whole herd of MCSE's
> > and a whole lot cheaper too.

> yup, this is a real issue,  it might be better for us but non-technical
> management don't like dealing with such "stars".

Correctamundo. Also worth adding that OpenVMS boxes tend to be very
tolerant of being poorly configured (ie: poor SYSGEN parameter
settings, poor UAF quotas, poor DCL, high levels of fragmentation,
etc).

That's the main thrust of this all for me. If boxes run "fairly well",
then let's get rid of as many staff as possible! Who cares about
long-term thinking, preventing problems from happening in the first
place, etc?

Another related thang - anyone else think there can be something of a
'project manager *'? It must be more impressive for PMs to
have (say) "migration of major business systems from XYZ to ABC" on
their CV/resume than just "kept the existing OpenVMS systems going &
ensuring their long-term health".

The danger comes when senior management (often extremely ignorant -
sometimes wilfully so) start believing the hype. They themselves will
usually want to 'bask in the reflected glory' of a major business
change.

You usually notice this when production systems suddenly become known
as "legacy systems", without there being any tangible replacement for
them on the horizon.

Brings up the old 'cost centres vs. profit centres' debate again.
Never worked anywhere that the concept of 'profit centres' has even
been *grasped*, let alone implemented.

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mg » Thu, 30 May 2002 22:33:47





>> > Problem with VMS is that it requires so few staff to keep it running.
>> > Better to have a small number of stars than a whole herd of MCSE's
>> > and a whole lot cheaper too.

>> yup, this is a real issue,  it might be better for us but non-technical
>> management don't like dealing with such "stars".

>Correctamundo. Also worth adding that OpenVMS boxes tend to be very
>tolerant of being poorly configured (ie: poor SYSGEN parameter
>settings, poor UAF quotas, poor DCL, high levels of fragmentation,
>etc).

>That's the main thrust of this all for me. If boxes run "fairly well",
>then let's get rid of as many staff as possible! Who cares about
>long-term thinking, preventing problems from happening in the first
>place, etc?

>Another related thang - anyone else think there can be something of a
>'project manager *'? It must be more impressive for PMs to
>have (say) "migration of major business systems from XYZ to ABC" on
>their CV/resume than just "kept the existing OpenVMS systems going &
>ensuring their long-term health".

You betcha.  My girlfriend worked in the NOC at a worldwide shipping company
that relied heavily on its networking infrastructure for competitive advantage.
(The fact that any office could get realtime info on where all the ships were,
how much container space was available, etc, made a real difference.)

They got a new VP - hmm, six years ago now - and he decided to outsource
all of IT operations including networking. There were official
announcements that outsourcing discussions were preliminary, that they
wouldn't do it if they couldn't achieve a substantial cost savings, and so
on, but in the end they decided to outsource even though there was very
little cost reduction, and what there was came mostly from non-IT
considerations.  (The outsourcing company agreed to pick up the lease on
the DP center, and then sublet the parts they weren't using to other
people, which was something the main company could have done itself.)

The help desk operation moved from the Bay Area to Texas.  Help desk
employees were promised they could keep their jobs if they wanted to move.
The NOC employees were promised rather good severance packages if they'd
stay until the outsourcing was complete (which was why my girlfriend stuck
around for the rest of this).

Most of the NOC employees moved to other companies just as soon as they
could.  Only the ones who had a lot of time in or who had some special deal
(like the guy who covered weekends and just drove the seventy miles from
home on Friday in an RV and slept in the RV in the parking lot, or the gal
who lived across the street) stuck around.  The VP who'd set up the deal
got promoted.  His replacement decided, at the last minute, that the
outsourcing company wasn't technically strong enough to cover the NOC, so
they decided to keep that in house.  Only now they only had four employees
left to cover 24x7, so they had to bring in a lot of contractors - not all
of whom were any good, but all of of whom were making more money than the
employees, one of whom got demoralized by that and left.

The new VP spent two years looking for a competent network management
outsource vendor, and was on the verge of signing a contract when the
whole company was bought by an Asian company, largely to take advantage of
the much-vaunted IT technology, and they installed their existing VP of IT
in his place, on the theory that somebody who'd been unable to bring their
own systems past the distribute-paper-reports-by-courier phase was just the
person to manage 24x7 interactive computing.

Things went downhill from there.

Quote:

>The danger comes when senior management (often extremely ignorant -
>sometimes wilfully so) start believing the hype. They themselves will
>usually want to 'bask in the reflected glory' of a major business
>change.

>You usually notice this when production systems suddenly become known
>as "legacy systems", without there being any tangible replacement for
>them on the horizon.

>Brings up the old 'cost centres vs. profit centres' debate again.
>Never worked anywhere that the concept of 'profit centres' has even
>been *grasped*, let alone implemented.

Yes.  In a massive self-inflicted wound, this shipping company took their
business-critical industry-leading IT system apart and let the lowest
bidder run most of it, in the meantime losing almost of all the people who
had any expertise in it.  If they wanted to get involved in outsourcing
they should have been on the outsource vendor end, not the client end - but
because outsourcing was fashionable and a VP wanted a big project, they
gave themselves an expensive disaster and ended up acquired.

(The happy ending for my girlfriend was that she impressed one of the
more-competent contractors, who happened to be picking up some extra hours
while waiting for a big deal to come through, and he hired her at a company
whose IT he manages - at more money, not working graveyard, and with
somebody she knows is reasonably sensible and technically-knowledgeable as
her boss.  She never collected the severance package - but when she bailed
after waiting for it for five years, her stomach stopped hurting.  [Well,
it stopped hurting after they removed the tumor, but that's another
story.])

-- Alan

===============================================================================

 Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056
 Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210
===============================================================================

 
 
 

Memo: Re: Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Post by Tim Llewelly » Fri, 31 May 2002 02:23:58





> > > Problem with VMS is that it requires so few staff to keep it running.
> > > Better to have a small number of stars than a whole herd of MCSE's
> > > and a whole lot cheaper too.

> > yup, this is a real issue,  it might be better for us but non-technical
> > management don't like dealing with such "stars".

> Correctamundo. Also worth adding that OpenVMS boxes tend to be very
> tolerant of being poorly configured (ie: poor SYSGEN parameter
> settings, poor UAF quotas, poor DCL, high levels of fragmentation,
> etc).

> That's the main thrust of this all for me. If boxes run "fairly well",
> then let's get rid of as many staff as possible! Who cares about
> long-term thinking, preventing problems from happening in the first
> place, etc?

Yup, get rid of the people who know what they are doing but its too
complicated for the pm to understand, then the system goes downhill
and consequently becomes ripe for replacement, and as the pm's bonus is related
to his budget, a nice high profile replacement project is just the ticket
for everyone except the out of work sysmgrs. :-)

Quote:> Another related thang - anyone else think there can be something of a
> 'project manager *'? It must be more impressive for PMs to
> have (say) "migration of major business systems from XYZ to ABC" on
> their CV/resume than just "kept the existing OpenVMS systems going &
> ensuring their long-term health".#

Bah, project managing is part of the day job for a VMS sysmgr, or should
be.

--


 
 
 

1. Another UK-based VMS System Manager looking for work...

Probably fairly futile advertising the fact here, but isn't that what
'networking' is all about?

;^D

Anyway, unemployed from the end of June...

Someone said to me last night 'there's always a light at the end of the
tunnel', thing is, I can't find the tunnel entrance.

Still, every silver lining has a cloud and all that...

Cheers

Steve S

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