NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by Tom Krotch » Sat, 08 Apr 1995 04:00:00




Quote:>Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
>VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
>Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

I was at a DEC/MS conference on Windows NT last fall, and DEC went out of their
way to say NT was the successor to VMS.

The one class on porting Unix to NT was worth going just to watch the hair
on the back of the Unix guys necks stand up <G>.

--
Tom Krotchko

"The information contained in this article represents my current view on
the issues discussed at the date of posting.  Because I must respond
to changing market conditions, it should not be interpreted to be a
commitment on my part, and I cannot guarantee the accuracy of any
information presented after the date of posting"

 
 
 

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by L S » Sat, 08 Apr 1995 04:00:00



Quote:>Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
>VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
>Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

(Is this a marketing strategy?)

 
 
 

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by Steve Lion » Sat, 08 Apr 1995 04:00:00



writes:

|>Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
|>VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
|>Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

Windows NT is actually a derivative of VAXELN, the real-time and embedded
OS that NT project leader Dave Cutler designed at Digital.  Microsoft doesn't
talk about this much either.

But what does it matter?  Why must one OS be held up as "better" than
another?  Isn't it time we moved past OS-wars (and language wars)?
--


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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by L S » Sat, 08 Apr 1995 04:00:00


Unix fans: how do you like VMS?

VMS fans: how do you like Unix?

I sometimes wonder how close Windows NT can be to VMS.

Maybe this is just a coincidence:

VMS -> V++, M++, S++ == W, N, T !!!!!

(oopps, do VMS folks use C?)

VMS++ == Windows NT!!

WNT was designed by some VMS guys for sure. How close is WNT culture to
VMS?

Is the similarity of WNT and VMS that puts off major Unix fans?

Do Unix fans hate VMS by tradition, and vice versa?

So do you think WNT can beat Unix flat this time? Can DEC+MS kill Unix?
Is this just a war between OSes, or a conflict of corporate culture vs
hacker's culture?

Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

 
 
 

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by Bruce Edig » Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:00:00


:
:Windows NT is actually a derivative of VAXELN, the real-time and embedded
:OS that NT project leader Dave Cutler designed at Digital.  Microsoft doesn't
:talk about this much either.

Can you offer some citations to back this up?  I mean, I've read "Inside
Windows NT" by H. Custer, but that's just a book.  It doesn't have tables
of real system calls, real memory maps or anything.  Just a lot of
"architecture diagrams" and vague, hand-waving text.  That doesn't prove
anything.  The documented part of relatively NT is just WIN32.  It's
hard to tell what's underneath, since all we have to go on is Custer's
unsupported assertions.

 
 
 

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by AEG Postal Syste » Tue, 11 Apr 1995 04:00:00



Quote:

> Do Unix fans hate VMS by tradition, and vice versa?

VMS fans don't hate UNIX, they just don't understand it :-)

And anyway, UNIX is just so...well... "inelegant" is the best word to
describe it.

Having recently used several UNIX systems, I have to say that they all
"feel" like a step backwards from VMS into the dark ages of computing.

Roger Hill -- AEG Postal Systems

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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by AEG Postal Syste » Tue, 11 Apr 1995 04:00:00



Quote:

> But what does it matter?  Why must one OS be held up as "better" than
> another?  Isn't it time we moved past OS-wars (and language wars)?

I think one OS is only "better" than another in the sense that you can
get more real work done and achieve results faster on one OS than
another.

For myself I know that I can write better software that works faster
and is more maintainable on a VMS system than on a UNIX system. This is
partly a function of the command line (DCL) editors (LSE) and debugging
environment. It is also a function of my knowledge of the VMS APIs vs the
UNIX APIs. (Last year I spent a month trying to work out which of
three or four documented Solaris shared memory APIs was available on
the system I was programming for :-()

OTOH for someone who is familiar with UNIX and has never used VMS, they
will achieve results faster on the UNIX machine they are familiar with
than they will on VMS.

Prehaps the main question that remains is which is the "better" system
for a new user to learn? If "better" means "easier" then the new user
would have to choose VMS over UNIX. If better means "more widely
available and seen to have better emplyment prospects" then they should
choose UNIX.

Roger Hill -- AEG Postal Systems

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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by This space intentionally left bla » Tue, 11 Apr 1995 04:00:00




>> Do Unix fans hate VMS by tradition, and vice versa?

>VMS fans don't hate UNIX, they just don't understand it :-)

Oh, VMS fans understand Unix just fine, they just can't memorize all those
random-command-name-generated commands or the meaningless single character
command flags (case-dependent)!

It's a pain having to re-invent command parsing and processing for every
application too.  Much nicer to have the OS supply code for that common task
in a way that lets users learn it once for all programs.

Pipes would be a good addition to OpenVMS though...

      -- Mike "most of the needed support is there now..." Bartman --

==============================================================================
| I didn't really say all the things that I said.  You probably didn't read  |
| what you thought you read.  Statistics show that this whole thing is more  |
| than likely just a hideous misunderstanding.                               |
==============================================================================

==============================================================================
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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by SLRC1::I00000 » Wed, 12 Apr 1995 04:00:00




>> Do Unix fans hate VMS by tradition, and vice versa?

>VMS fans don't hate UNIX, they just don't understand it :-)

>And anyway, UNIX is just so...well... "inelegant" is the best word to
>describe it.

VMS fans feel frustrated because UNIX, a rather crude OS, has become very
popular while a robust, mature VMS languishes.

Quote:>Having recently used several UNIX systems, I have to say that they all
>"feel" like a step backwards from VMS into the dark ages of computing.

Due to the fact that I am not firmly esconced in a VMS shop, I've begun
looking at this a positive. It "smells" like opportunity for admin-types.

Given my druthers I'd stay with VMS, but that doesn't seem like a wise career
choice at this time.

regards

+----------------------------------------------------------------+
John Hartfield             | a man's got to know his limitations |      

+----------------------------------------------------------------+

 
 
 

NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by AEG Postal Syste » Thu, 13 Apr 1995 04:00:00



writes:
Quote:> >VMS fans don't hate UNIX, they just don't understand it :-)

> Oh, VMS fans understand Unix just fine, they just can't memorize all those
> random-command-name-generated commands or the meaningless single character
> command flags (case-dependent)!

Prehaps I should have said that VMS fans don't understand why any sane
person would prefer the UNIX shell to DCL :-)

Roger Hill -- AEG Postal Systems

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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by Terry C Shann » Sun, 16 Apr 1995 04:00:00







>>>Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
>>>VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
>>>Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

>>I was at a DEC/MS conference on Windows NT last fall, and DEC went out of their
>>way to say NT was the successor to VMS.

>Then again, DEC is helping the Linux folks with porting to the Alpha.
>What gives? :-)

>-- Jason Garman


The LINUX strategy makes good sense.  It enables AXP econoboxes.  With
respect to Microsoft, the trade press of late has been indicating that
we'll see more affinity between OpenVMS and Windows NT.  You may recall
DEC's abortive effort to pitch "Desktop-VMS."  Windows NT is Desktop-VMS
done right.  Check out the Anaheim DECUS presentation done by Dennis
Zalewski.  In the words of rocker John Waters, "It all makes perfect sense."

cheers,

Terry Shannon
Director, Digital Service
ILLUMINATA

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NT-Unix war is a contiunation of VMS-Unix war (?)

Post by Jason Garm » Sun, 16 Apr 1995 04:00:00





>>Microsoft does not want to publicise the image of NT being a baby of
>>VMS, does it? Why? Was it ever advertised as a 'better Unix than Unix'.
>>Or in truth is it a 'better VMS than VMS'?

>I was at a DEC/MS conference on Windows NT last fall, and DEC went out of their
>way to say NT was the successor to VMS.

Then again, DEC is helping the Linux folks with porting to the Alpha.
What gives? :-)

-- Jason Garman

 
 
 

1. NT-Unix war is a continuation of VMS-Unix war (?)


Re: elegance:  I'm a die-hard VMS supporter (call me an open-minded bigot), but
I must say that in the classic computer science sense of the "elegance" concept
(i.e., an algorithm implemented or solution derived in an optimal way with the
least coding effort), UNIX has it all over stock, uncustomized, off-the-shelf
VMS in some areas.

The trait that UNIX lacks is orthoganality.  IMHO, that's because it was
designed and implemented by commitee (multiple committees, actually) over a
long period of time with no common design spec, no communication between many
of the committee members, and (at least initially) no need to make it good
enough to get people to shell out money for.  Unlike VMS.

Given a large programming project, or the need for real security, or the
requirement that the O/S and the app stay up for any length of time, or the
need to be able to remember and make some degree of sense out of CLI commands
and qualifiers, I'll bet the business and my job on VMS.  Until they pry the
consolidated distribution CDs out of my cold, dead fingers.

                                Jerry Anderson

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