New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by John Smit » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:20:30






> >Serious suggestion time: For the next edition, you need an article
> >describing what OpenVMS does, a reliable, secure backroom server
system
> >that you can bet your business on.

> Does this magazine have any contact info for the editor?  You don't
expect
> anyone to act on your suggestion if you only post it here, right?

> Even if Keith or Sue or someone else in HP sees your suggestion and
passes
> it along, I expect it would go in the folder marked "comments from
people
> who couldn't be bothered to send their own email."

> In other words, by posting here you are "preaching to the
converted", but
> likely making no progress toward the goal of improving VMS
visibility
> within the HP corporate maze.

Robert,

The day HP starts to visibly and sustainably begins advertising VMS
(in the traditional sense of print media, TV) to the CEO/COT/COO/CFO
crowd is the day we stop *ing (caveat...as long as the ads are VMS
centric and convey a proper message).

Till then, stay tuned to this space for criticism.

I notice that Keith Parris didn't take me up on my legitimate offer to
work up some advertising copy last weekend to lay on carly's doorstep
on Monday morning, a la 'I've worked with them all and nothing is as
robust for DR as OpenVMS'. If potential customers can believe the lies
Microsoft tells, there's hope that they could become convinced by the
truth of VMS excellence if they only heard about it.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Bill Tod » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 04:03:19





> >Serious suggestion time: For the next edition, you need an article
> >describing what OpenVMS does, a reliable, secure backroom server system
> >that you can bet your business on.

> Does this magazine have any contact info for the editor?  You don't expect
> anyone to act on your suggestion if you only post it here, right?

"Post here, get an answer here" is a time-honored tradition.  Keith seems to
have taken it upon himself to be a VMS (and often a general HP) advocate,
hence one might expect him to be interested in passing on such comments -
possibly increasing their weight in the process.

Quote:

> Even if Keith or Sue or someone else in HP sees your suggestion and passes
> it along, I expect it would go in the folder marked "comments from people
> who couldn't be bothered to send their own email."

In other words, pretty much the same reaction that VMS's owners usually have
for comments offered directly.  Another good reason for giving it to someone
who might actually be motivated to follow up on it.

- bill

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Robert Deining » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:08:46




>I notice that Keith Parris didn't take me up on my legitimate offer to
>work up some advertising copy last weekend to lay on carly's doorstep
>on Monday morning, a la 'I've worked with them all and nothing is as
>robust for DR as OpenVMS'. If potential customers can believe the lies
>Microsoft tells, there's hope that they could become convinced by the
>truth of VMS excellence if they only heard about it.

The last time I spoke to Keith, he did NOT work in HP marketing, nor was
he in the vicinity of Carly's doorstep.  They don't give Keith an
advertising budget. So how is he supposed to help you in your quest?  Send
Carly an email like this:

"Hi Carly.  I'm not one of your Marketing people, but this really smart
guy on the internet, who uses a fake name, gave me an idea for a VMS ad.
I've checked all the facts and the ad is legitimate.  Could you please
allocate a few hundred grand to put it in a bunch of magazines and on TV?
The guy with the fake name promises to start buying HP stuff, like Marvel
systems or maybe an ink cartridge, as soon as he sees these ads.

Keith Parris."

I can't imagine why Keith didn't take you up on your legitimate offer.

Good Grief!  What's happening to me?  Now I'm conversing with an imaginary
person.  Is your real name Harvey?

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Robert Deining » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:20:15








>> >Serious suggestion time: For the next edition, you need an article
>> >describing what OpenVMS does, a reliable, secure backroom server system
>> >that you can bet your business on.

>> Does this magazine have any contact info for the editor?  You don't expect
>> anyone to act on your suggestion if you only post it here, right?

>"Post here, get an answer here" is a time-honored tradition.  Keith seems to
>have taken it upon himself to be a VMS (and often a general HP) advocate,
>hence one might expect him to be interested in passing on such comments -
>possibly increasing their weight in the process.

That's just the point.  Suggestions and complaints from customers have
MORE weight than comments from an HP person with an obvious ax to grind.

Quote:>> Even if Keith or Sue or someone else in HP sees your suggestion and passes
>> it along, I expect it would go in the folder marked "comments from people
>> who couldn't be bothered to send their own email."

>In other words, pretty much the same reaction that VMS's owners usually have
>for comments offered directly.  Another good reason for giving it to someone
>who might actually be motivated to follow up on it.

Here's my point:  if an HP communication has a feedback mechanism, you
ought to start by using that mechanism.  The comments get directly to the
spot where someone can act on them.  If a dozen people take the trouble to
email requests on the same topic, an editor will usually take notice.

Newsgroups, especially this one, are pretty useless for getting your point
across to HP.

Sending your indignant complaints to Carly, Peter, Scott, Rich, Mark, and
the whole BOD likely gets you ignored as a crank.  If one of them takes
you seriously, he'll have to route your message back down the food chain
to the magazine editor you should have contacted directly.  There's
another ten or so chances for the message to get lost.

By all means, continue to rant here.  But send specific suggestions (like
magazine topics) to the correct, requested contact point whenever
possible.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by John Smit » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:28:45



Quote:> In article



> >I notice that Keith Parris didn't take me up on my legitimate offer
to
> >work up some advertising copy last weekend to lay on carly's
doorstep
> >on Monday morning, a la 'I've worked with them all and nothing is
as
> >robust for DR as OpenVMS'. If potential customers can believe the
lies
> >Microsoft tells, there's hope that they could become convinced by
the
> >truth of VMS excellence if they only heard about it.

> The last time I spoke to Keith, he did NOT work in HP marketing, nor
was
> he in the vicinity of Carly's doorstep.  They don't give Keith an
> advertising budget. So how is he supposed to help you in your quest?

So in The New HP all thought ends with the proverbial " it's not my
department" excuse?

In some companies there is such a thing called 'initiative', or is
that frowned upon in The New HP?
Do people at The New HP get fired for using initiative or trying to
come up with ideas which display the company's products and services
with greater visibility to current and *potential* customers?
Or is initiative only allowed in the printer ink and toner division?

Just curious.

Where I used to work long ago, if I came up against an impediment to
progress with my immediate boss or his boss, I simply went to the COO
or the CEO and detailed what I thought.  Worked wonders because the
CEO and COO were both focused on the bottom line, not protecting turf.
Are you saying that carly isn't focused on the bottom line and would
not appreciate hearing about ideas that could make the company more
money and stealing customers from the ranks of dissatisfied unix and
Windows users? Maybe she's more insulated from the goings on than you
might think by people who are trying to protect turf, careers,
pensions, or so wrapped up in the dogma they've been chanting that
they will lose too much 'face' if they say they've been wrong. It's a
possibility.

BTW, I would have taken the initiative to send carly the resulting
work. I have nothing to fear from her or those subordinate to her.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:> Send Carly an email like this:

> "Hi Carly.  I'm not one of your Marketing people, but this really
smart
> guy on the internet, who uses a fake name, gave me an idea for a VMS
ad.
> I've checked all the facts and the ad is legitimate.  Could you
please
> allocate a few hundred grand to put it in a bunch of magazines and
on TV?
> The guy with the fake name promises to start buying HP stuff, like
Marvel
> systems or maybe an ink cartridge, as soon as he sees these ads.
> Keith Parris."

> I can't imagine why Keith didn't take you up on your legitimate

offer.

Keith is the source of the statement I suggested working with. If it
was just a 'throw-away' statement then I can understand that there
would be no interest in seeing VMS promoted with that statement as the
'core' of an adverti*t. On the other hand, if the statement was a
deeply held belief backed by years of experience and factual,
verifiable results, then why not use it in a way that bring VMS wider
recognition and potential for increased sales to new customers?

Oh...I forgot...HP has no intention of advertising VMS (as sources I'm
certain you'd consider to be reliable report).

Quote:> Good Grief!  What's happening to me?  Now I'm conversing with an
imaginary
> person.  Is your real name Harvey?

No, but if you ask nicely we can correspond off-line as others here in
c.o.v have found out. I have no quarrel with you, Keith, or indeed
most people at HP/Compaq/Digital.

However I do have issue with a series of management types, who for
years have neglected the effective promotion of VMS in the
marketplace.This neglect has directly or indirectly caused many of my
customers to bolt to Solaris and other operating systems, which in
most instances has resulted in many non-billable support issues that I
have had to deal with (in the real world there are some customers to
whom you cannot send an invoice to for certain matters, even if the
problem is the result of *their* choice of operating systems and
inability to keep their systems operating reliably).

P.S. I'm not six feet tall, and I never knew Jimmy Stewart.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Doc.Cyphe » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 22:19:19


<snip>

Quote:>>"Post here, get an answer here" is a time-honored tradition.  Keith seems to
>>have taken it upon himself to be a VMS (and often a general HP) advocate,
>>hence one might expect him to be interested in passing on such comments -
>>possibly increasing their weight in the process.

>That's just the point.  Suggestions and complaints from customers have
>MORE weight than comments from an HP person with an obvious ax to grind.

I've heard quite enough stories about HP, and Compaq before them, being
downright difficult with customers who want VMS software/services.  Unless
there is some top-secret masterplan to market the hell out of VMS once a
non-beta/EAK/porter's kit for Itanium is available, it looks like trying to
get the operating system's profile raised is pretty much like trying to rob a
bank with a banana.

<snip>

Quote:>Here's my point:  if an HP communication has a feedback mechanism, you
>ought to start by using that mechanism.  The comments get directly to the
>spot where someone can act on them.  If a dozen people take the trouble to
>email requests on the same topic, an editor will usually take notice.

Unless their hands are tied with regard to pushing a product.  Remember what
happened to the NT comparison thing on openvms.compaq.com?  I don't think that
even lasted a day - and it was good advertising copy.

Quote:>Newsgroups, especially this one, are pretty useless for getting your point
>across to HP.

If HP haven't got the message yet, they've got an airgap firewall between
sensory inputs and brain.  That or the only reason senior management's heads
don't implode is because of the two short planks inside.

Quote:>Sending your indignant complaints to Carly, Peter, Scott, Rich, Mark, and
>the whole BOD likely gets you ignored as a crank.  If one of them takes
>you seriously, he'll have to route your message back down the food chain
>to the magazine editor you should have contacted directly.  There's
>another ten or so chances for the message to get lost.

If any of the above takes one (out of the god-only-knows-how-many) complaints
seriously it would be an end to the problem.  You don't need to wear a tinfoil
hat to find the "VMS' Death by Neglect" * theory compelling.

Quote:>By all means, continue to rant here.  But send specific suggestions (like
>magazine topics) to the correct, requested contact point whenever
>possible.

Newsgroups are a good barometer for the opinion of those "at the sharp end",
I'm glad you're not one of those suggesting people shut up, and please don't
take any of the above personally Robert.  I just needed to vent a little about
this.  Personally I know of numerous sites where VMS boxes are sitting
gathering dust for no reason other than the official (i.e. nonexistent) public
profile of VMS.

Doc.
--
OpenVMS.           Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Doc.Cyphe » Sat, 28 Jun 2003 22:28:32



>No, but if you ask nicely we can correspond off-line as others here in
>c.o.v have found out. I have no quarrel with you, Keith, or indeed
>most people at HP/Compaq/Digital.

Yes... Eventually.  What a big surprise tho, I couldn't get mail from John
until a VMS system was added to the equation.  Reliability anyone?

Doc.
--
OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by David J. Dachter » Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:31:18






> <snip>

> >>"Post here, get an answer here" is a time-honored tradition.  Keith seems to
> >>have taken it upon himself to be a VMS (and often a general HP) advocate,
> >>hence one might expect him to be interested in passing on such comments -
> >>possibly increasing their weight in the process.

> >That's just the point.  Suggestions and complaints from customers have
> >MORE weight than comments from an HP person with an obvious ax to grind.

> I've heard quite enough stories about HP, and Compaq before them, being
> downright difficult with customers who want VMS software/services.  Unless
> there is some top-secret masterplan to market the hell out of VMS once a
> non-beta/EAK/porter's kit for Itanium is available, it looks like trying to
> get the operating system's profile raised is pretty much like trying to rob a
> bank with a banana.

Well, there was a piece on the radio the other morning about a "dumb
crook" who tried to hold up a pharmacy using only his black-gloved hand,
his index finger extended like a gun barrel, and thumb raised like a
*ed hammer. He was later caught at a nearby friend's house, even
though he'd worn a ski mask during the incident.

--
David J. Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.veryComputer.com/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by jlsu » Sun, 29 Jun 2003 04:55:17




Quote:

>Apparently I'm very famous, in my back yard which is the same place my
>opinions have the highest validity. :-)

Ha!!!  I only wish that were true for me.
 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by JF Meze » Sun, 29 Jun 2003 05:22:44



> Newsgroups are a good barometer for the opinion of those "at the sharp end",

I had the same treatment in the PSION newsgroups as I am getting here.  My
"nemesis" on the PSION newsgroups, I later found out, was the chief evangelist
for the new PSION EPOC-32 OS which was spun off to a consortium of mobile
phone companies (now known as Symbian-OS). I saw plenty of signs that PSION
was not going to continue with the PDA market. (lack of marketing, much
delayed product upgrades etc). Of course, I was blasted left and right for
being the "naysayer".

But when PSION made it official that it was no longer going to produce new
PDAs, and that it would continue to sell its exsiting PDAs (already a few
years old) until demand went away, nobody came out and said "JF was right all along".

In that instance, most of the participants were from europe, britain
especially (where PSION was based and well known. When I noticed that Palm was
talking over the PDA market in north america, I was told I was dreaming, or
that "Palm isn't competing against PSION because it is a different type of
PDA".  I was also told "funny, here in europe, PALM is small, unknown and
PSION rules, we see no reason to fear its demise".

Then, when PALM jumped the pond to europe, it didn't take long for PSION to
pull out of the market.

Sometimes, a person with a different point of view sees things much earlier
than those who are in a "safe" area and don't see any signs of a problem until
it is way too late. It is a shame that they choose to ignore those warning of
a storm coming.

PSION was very much like VMS. Used to be the world leader in PDAs, in fact,
they invented PDAs. But as market grew, newcomers used marketing instead of
word-of-mouth and eventually pushed PSION aside to its market niches, but even
those niches eventually fell apart.

In abandonning the PDA market, PSION focused on its industrial devices, (a
market not yet dominated by Palm or Windows-CE/Pocket-PC). Ironically, PSION's
industrial devices are still mostlty  based on its older EPOC-16 (SIBO)
architecture instead of the "fancy" EPCO-32 (Symbian OS). But they purchased
another industrial device firm which has units based on other OSs, including
Windows etc etc. So PSION is now in its last market niche. Away from consumer
goods and focused on a narrow market.

And interestingly, now that PSION's involvement with Symbian is limited (still
a sharerholder, but no longer develops new PDAs based on Symbian-OS),  the
mobile phone companies have finally gotten Symbian to do something, and most
new phones from Nokia and Ericcson are now based on Symbian-OS, albeit, each
having its own user interface design. (keeping phones different). And as
Symbian moves closer to what the mobile phones need, it moves further from
what PSION would need should it want to produce a new PDA based on that OS.

I see so many similarities between PSION and Digital/VMS, that it isn't funny.
And even the PSION software development kit for the EPOC-16 makes mention of
VMS in a few places.  The most interesting is in teh NCP protocol (think
DECNET) which warns application developpers that their apps need to be able to
handle foreign file specificatiosn when a user selects a file that resides on
a remote machine which could be different OS.  (and yes, one can remotely
start a task on a PSION with their proprietary protocol which is very decnet
like in functionality).

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Doc.Cyphe » Sun, 29 Jun 2003 23:33:24




>> Newsgroups are a good barometer for the opinion of those "at the sharp end",

>I had the same treatment in the PSION newsgroups as I am getting here.  My
>"nemesis" on the PSION newsgroups, I later found out, was the chief evangelist
>for the new PSION EPOC-32 OS which was spun off to a consortium of mobile
>phone companies (now known as Symbian-OS). I saw plenty of signs that PSION
>was not going to continue with the PDA market. (lack of marketing, much
>delayed product upgrades etc). Of course, I was blasted left and right for
>being the "naysayer".

Perhaps it is not the message, but the way it's put.  You can say the same
thing without being so confrontational about it - inject a little humour too.
I'm sure my new sig raised a few smiles when I started using it.

Doc.
--
OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Bill Tod » Mon, 30 Jun 2003 03:06:03





> >> Newsgroups are a good barometer for the opinion of those "at the sharp
end",

> >I had the same treatment in the PSION newsgroups as I am getting here.
My
> >"nemesis" on the PSION newsgroups, I later found out, was the chief
evangelist
> >for the new PSION EPOC-32 OS which was spun off to a consortium of mobile
> >phone companies (now known as Symbian-OS). I saw plenty of signs that
PSION
> >was not going to continue with the PDA market. (lack of marketing, much
> >delayed product upgrades etc). Of course, I was blasted left and right
for
> >being the "naysayer".

> Perhaps it is not the message, but the way it's put.  You can say the same
> thing without being so confrontational about it

That's good advice in general, but in specific cases whether it's applicable
really depends upon the surrounding environment.  When that environment
contains a bunch of people committed (for whatever reasons) to spinning a
different message, meeting that message head-on is sometimes the only way to
make one's own message heard.

- bill

 
 
 

New Business View Magazine for HP Enterprise Customers

Post by Doc.Cyphe » Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:03:35





>> Perhaps it is not the message, but the way it's put.  You can say the same
>> thing without being so confrontational about it

>That's good advice in general, but in specific cases whether it's applicable
>really depends upon the surrounding environment.  When that environment
>contains a bunch of people committed (for whatever reasons) to spinning a
>different message, meeting that message head-on is sometimes the only way to
>make one's own message heard.

I was specifically targetting JF's approach.  I know you've been about as
blunt as is possible on some occasions, but you do it with a little more
style. :)

Doc.
--
OpenVMS.         Eight out of ten hackers prefer *other* operating systems.