Quote:>Apologies up front for the tone of this. Guess I'm just "on the rag"
Sorry, David. I didn't want to upset you with hints given from the off.
I also didn't want to start a flame war and so I'd better kept my mouth
shut, but I try to explain my arguments one more time. I don't want
to continue this sensible discussion for any longer. Opinions are different
of course. And every opinion has it's arguments of course.
>> >Problem occured in a *VERY* important production environment. Downtime
>> >cannot be tolerated and version upgrades of core packages are not an
>> >option without a *VERY* good reason.
>> How about the coming IPF migration ?
>> You have to get as current as possible on Alpha
>> before the next migration wave gets over you.
>> In my eyes, this *is* a *VERY* good reason.
>....and that does exactly what to break down the barriers to upgrades?
>Does it magically move a VAX/VMS V5.3-1 application to OpenVMS-Alpha
>V7.3-1 with no source code and no problems with VESTing?
Iff you have such an old application and you have no source code,
you already lost. But having no VEST problems bring hope back in.
But unfortunately the time of VEST is officially over. It may work
of course, but you can't call HPQ for support. You are some years
too late for this. You may like it or not, but this is now a fact.
Quote:>Does it magically make a recalcitrant vendor (of the app. or OpenVMS,
>your choice) co-operative and beneficent?
Of course not. If you have problems like these, than you are forced
to do what you have done. But I know of people who like to 'never touch
a running system' until it's too late and their systems gets replaced
instead of upgraded and this means in 99% bye-bye-vms.
Quote:>Does it magically make downtime an option to allow the upgrades?
No. But if downtime is a problem (and this is exactly why VMS or VMSclusters
were and still are the best solution) then such an upgrade takes very much
time. With maybe two downtimes a year, you probably need some years to do
your migration tests. So, I'd better start sooner than later...
>> Folks are "stuck" at various versions of VMS and layered products for
>> a reason.
>What part of that is in anyway ambiguous?
It is not. And being "stuck" makes life much more complicated of course.
But to go on after the freeze time is over you have two options. Find a
replacement with VMS systems (how complicated this may be, you surely know
better than I do) or let someone do the replacement with something else...
>> Start ASAP.
>> Frozen systems are dead systems very soon.
>A couple of summers ago, I had to go to one of Mark's sites that was
>still using MicroVAX 2000s with touch screens in a production
>environment. (notice: no clue as to identity, industry or anything else
>that compromises their position, security or intellectual property!
>Didn't think I could do it, did ya?)
>I don't see them moving to OpenVMS Alpha or IPF anytime soon. If
>anything, they'd probably go Linux or *BSD (my guess - totally
Quote:>Things don't "die" until you let them.
You mean, you make your hardware spare parts on your own ?
What to do if HPQ does no longer offer maint for your old hardware
and you tried to get spare parts on the used market and you've been
unsuccessful for over a year ? Then things are dead without your will...
Quote:>Go ahead, guys - keep motivating me and others here to give up VMS,
>maybe even computing in general. It'd be the biggest favor you can do
>for any of us.
Sorry, David, the opposite is true. I'd like to motivate everyone to use VMS.
It is the best operating system, it is a general purpose operating system
and it probably has all the features people need and like. The image and the
price of VMS (means, as you know, the treatment of it's owner) is not ok.
But, my experience has been, if you keep a system frozen for a long time,
it gets replaced and not upgraded. And this means, one VMS system less...
Good luck anyway
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)