Very Computer

by **Leopoldo Raffael** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

OK, I have been reading this newsgroup for a while, seeing all sorts of
moronic comments from both us users and Team17 comments (a sentence bound to
get them BOTH to fall around my ears shortly....)...
The first word is: RESPECT to Team17. Many of you may not realize it, but the
guys are still HERE, answering all sorts of postings from us lot, no matter
how stupid, abusive or childish. Or thoughtful. And you see, they dont have
to, as Team17 have officially "said goodbye to" the Amiga.
Say what you want about Worms DC, but its the only game I have bought so far
that runs straight from my 24-bit PicassoIV WB screen, plays without glitches
and then quits out beautifully, without messing my system up....
Another word to Team17: someone should ram those "few" 7000 copies of The
Killing Grounds you sold down your throats....
The game lacks playtesting. Maybe it had some, but I can find no other
explanation for a game that has a level it takes me TWO WEEKs to finish, and
the next five I can do in the SAME HOUR.
We were not promised, we were GUARANTEED (by your telephonic staff) GFX card
support. AndyC said that there was no GFX card available to test it on..
Someone else, from Team17 but I cant remember the name, on this very same
group, said they offered him their card for development, but he just couldnt
be bothered. And I'd really like to know which one is telling fibs.
The game is buggy. No question there. Some people (and again the name is not
on my lips right now) posted a patch on Aminet, that increased speed by a
factor of four on 1x1 on my 40mhz 040.... And they are not professionals or
anything. I wonder why AndyC (a reputedly PROFESSIONAL programmer) could not
do this in the first place. Try it out. It makes the game more playable..
Please stop this "we are the only ones doing something good for the Amiga. You
should worship us" attitude. I BOUGHT the original WORMS, TKG, WORMS DC. I
PAID for them. HARD CASH. And they all came with PC registration cards...
Pitiful telephonic support (one of my queries was answered with "try editing
the config.sys file to get more RAM"), as far as the AMIGA was concerned
anyway.
And they dont even work properly on my system (apart from DC that is)
This is not moaning. I PAID. I really did, and I feel I've been duped.
Full credit to you for sticking to the Amiga long after it was evident there
was no money in it for BIG companies (which you became thanx to US, btw) and
again, I admire you lot still reading this stuff. And I hope you wont take
this message with the same defensive and excessive attitude you have taken
some of the others....
I like a decent exchange of opinions, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped it
at that. I have not insulted you, and I dont expect insults back...

Ciao,
Igor

by **Drago** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

HI,

Team 17 are full of shite. There, I've said it. No more worshiping by Amiga
mags fawning over 2nd rate arcade games (Body Blows), no more churning out
versions of the same game (Alien Breed). They were always about hype.
Remember when T17 said they were going to drop ECS support and then
backtracked when they realised that most of their market came from there.
Oh, how about the time they were going to set the budget market alight?

If you want two Amiga legends look at the Bitmaps (who backed up the hype
with quality games) and Graftgold (who are IMO the most talented dev team
the amiga ever had). T17 will just be another bit player in the PC market.
Why? Because their games never had the spark that makes great games. They
were always very clinical games. Now these are just my views, but I think
the Amiga will always be bigger than T17!

by **Johan Eriksso** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Quote:> If you want two Amiga legends look at the Bitmaps (who backed up the hype
> with quality games) and Graftgold (who are IMO the most talented dev team
> the amiga ever had). T17 will just be another bit player in the PC market.
> Why? Because their games never had the spark that makes great games. They
> were always very clinical games. Now these are just my views, but I think
> the Amiga will always be bigger than T17!

Of course they didn't succeed with every release, but Alien Breed is a
good game, period. Matter of taste though...

by **Angus Manwarin** » Fri, 20 Jun 1997 04:00:00

> > If you want two Amiga legends look at the Bitmaps (who backed up the hype
> > with quality games) and Graftgold (who are IMO the most talented dev team
> > the amiga ever had). T17 will just be another bit player in the PC market.
> > Why? Because their games never had the spark that makes great games. They
> > were always very clinical games. Now these are just my views, but I think
> > the Amiga will always be bigger than T17!

> Of course they didn't succeed with every release, but Alien Breed is a
> good game, period. Matter of taste though...

Hmmmm, well for my money, AB3D is a classic, and I accept that Worms has
given a lot of people pleasure, but that's about it, IMO.

--
All the best,
Angus Manwaring.

by **Mika Yrj|** » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>HI,
>Team 17 are full of shite. There, I've said it. No more worshiping by Amiga

Very constructive attitude... NOT.

Mika
--
/-------------------------------------------------------------------------\
I Fantasy, Sci-fi, Computers, Marillion, Oldfield, Vangelis, Clannad, Irc I
I Odd Experiences, Worms, Tuna, Synths. See http://www.lut.fi/~myrjola I
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------/

by **Drago** » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hi,

Why is it not consturctive? It's the truth. EVERY game they released was
bettered by another team. AB1 - 57 = Chaos Engine. BB1 & 2 = Shadow
Fighter. Overdrive = blank disk. I've got the timetable from a recent
Develop! conference and there's a speech by Martyn Brown about gameplay and
originality. I think this is rich considering Worms is a rip off of Sorched
Earth! Stuart Campbell may be a* at times, but he called that one
right.

When history records the great dev teams on the Amiga, T17 will be way down
the list.

by **Steffen Haeus** » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hi!

Quote:> The game lacks playtesting. Maybe it had some, but I can find no other
> explanation for a game that has a level it takes me TWO WEEKs to finish, and
> the next five I can do in the SAME HOUR.

Grin, not only you :)

Quote:> We were not promised, we were GUARANTEED (by your telephonic staff) GFX card
> support. AndyC said that there was no GFX card available to test it on..

Well, would be no reason anyways... i gave a copy of rtgmaster.library to Team
17 a LONG time before the release of AB3D II. rtgmaster code can be tested on
ECS/AGA systems too, so it does not need a GFX Board to test it on...

Quote:> Someone else, from Team17 but I cant remember the name, on this very same
> group, said they offered him their card for development, but he just couldnt
> be bothered. And I'd really like to know which one is telling fibs.

I think to remember, there were SEVERAL people who offered their card. I think
Team 17 wanted to bring out the game as soon as possible, as they feared the
Amiga-Market to collapse before their eyes...

Quote:> The game is buggy. No question there. Some people (and again the name is not
> on my lips right now) posted a patch on Aminet, that increased speed by a
> factor of four on 1x1 on my 40mhz 040.... And they are not professionals or
> anything. I wonder why AndyC (a reputedly PROFESSIONAL programmer) could not
> do this in the first place. Try it out. It makes the game more playable..

Wait till you have the GFX Board Version that is currently being done... it
makes the game even MORE playable !!! Hmmm, about no
professionels/professionels... AB3DII was the first c2p using game AndyC did,
so it might be understandable, that his c2p was not optimal. What is NOT
understandable, though, is ... after the first demos were released he WAS
mailed some c2p from the guy who later did the patch, as far as i remember...
seems he chose to ignore those c2p...

Quote:> Please stop this "we are the only ones doing something good for the Amiga. You
> should worship us" attitude. I BOUGHT the original WORMS, TKG, WORMS DC. I
> PAID for them. HARD CASH. And they all came with PC registration cards...
> Pitiful telephonic support (one of my queries was answered with "try editing
> the config.sys file to get more RAM"), as far as the AMIGA was concerned
> anyway.

argh... config.sys ? :(

Quote:> Full credit to you for sticking to the Amiga long after it was evident there
> was no money in it for BIG companies (which you became thanx to US, btw) and
> again, I admire you lot still reading this stuff. And I hope you wont take

Well, yeah, this all is true, too, of course :))) But i fear, Team 17 now has
left us...

Steffen Haeuser

by **Kyze** » Sat, 21 Jun 1997 04:00:00

: EVERY game they released was bettered by another team.

They're just developers like everyone else. They're not perfect (eg BB1&2,
Overdrive, TKG, F1Challenge, Quak, etc) but some of the games they published
are very good, and a few are absolutely brilliant.

PS: Scorched Tanks sucks more than Worms - there are no donkeys or sheep in
Scorched Tanks. This is a terrible oversight.

--
Stuart 'Kyzer' Caie - Kyzer/CSG |undergraduate of Aberdeen University |100%
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~u13sac |My opinions aren't those of Aberdeen |Amiga -

--
Random sig of the day:
AtheistCode(v1.0) ACv1.0 DUR5 STR4 BIT4 ACT1 DEF4 DEB5 CON1 SLM5 XTN4 PUB2

by **Steffen Haeus** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hi!

Quote:> HI,
> Team 17 are full of shite. There, I've said it. No more worshiping by Amiga

This is definitely NOT NICE.

Quote:> If you want two Amiga legends look at the Bitmaps (who backed up the hype
> with quality games) and Graftgold (who are IMO the most talented dev team

What about Thalion ? I found they were an Amigalegend, too. (My favourite one,
i really loved their RPGs... usually when i went to the AmigaShow, every year
i bought at least a game from Thalion... but then... one year... there was
only the PC Version of Albion on the show :(((( And Ambermoon does not run
anymore on my 40 MHz 040 (on the 25 MHz one it did run, though))

Steffen Haeuser

by **Stefan Bobe** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>I've got the timetable from a recent
>Develop! conference and there's a speech by Martyn Brown about gameplay and
>originality. I think this is rich considering Worms is a rip off of Sorched
>Earth! Stuart Campbell may be a* at times, but he called that one
>right.

Hello Mr. Dragon. Would you care to mention an Amiga game that was
so incredibly original that no-one could say "Oh but that's just a
rip-off of XXXXX"?

Go on.

--
=====================================================================

by **Drago** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hi,

Yeah, Thalion were a good team. I really liked No Second Prize. Best 3D
racing game on the after Stunt Car. They showed that you didn't need a fast
processor to run a good 3D game. Whatever happened to NSP 2?

by **Drago** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Hello Mr. Boberg,

Read the message before blowing your stack. LOOK at the context in which it
was written. MB was giving a speech about originality! Sure, most games are
rip offs but those dev teams don't go crying from the rooftops about
originality and gameplay. Admit it, that's exactly what T17 were doing with
Worms.

As for original Amiga games, nothing like Populous had ever been seen
before when it came out. It mat have had Kingdom at it's roots but it put
such a spin on it, that it became a totally fresh game. What could you
manage? A beat'em'up, a gauntlet game and car games. I remember how your
team was going to make the jaws of A1200 owners drop (AF interview).
Exactly when did you do this??

I found the amount of posturing that you did while in the Amiga market
laughable, and I stand behind what I said. Oh, and the Scotsman was still
right to call you on Worms.

Bye Mr. Boberg.

by **Stefan Bobe** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

>Read the message before blowing your stack. LOOK at the context in which it
>was written. MB was giving a speech about originality! Sure, most games are
>rip offs but those dev teams don't go crying from the rooftops about
>originality and gameplay. Admit it, that's exactly what T17 were doing with
>Worms.

I personally think it's a very ingenious, original idea: A team of
worms with cute animations, cute voices, killing each other with all
sorts of silly weapons. Out of the games released 1996, I think you'd
find it very difficult to name a more original game... Could you name
one, please? Better still, name three.

As for ripping off 'Scorched Earth' (sic), I think it's difficult to
rip off a game released in 1997. Scorched Tanks on the other hand,
maybe so, but then, that wasn't REALLY original either, was it?

It just depends on how you want to see things. If you take things
far enough, NOTHING is original. All games just combine known elements
in different ways (with larger or lesser success), so nothing is
original. Post-It notes are just pieces of paper with a strip of glue
on them. TetraPak? Cartons with some plastic coating. *y trivial
mate, anyone could work it out. But they didn't.

Quote:>such a spin on it, that it became a totally fresh game. What could you
>manage? A beat'em'up, a gauntlet game and car games.

You're funny. Let's look at MicroProse have managed to make: Some
sim game, another sim game, a car game, a flight sim, some railroad
sim, some *y pirate sail-about sim. What have Sensible managed?
Some footy game, some other footy game, some lemmings-like shoot-em'up
game, some space shoot'em up. Psygnosis? Some racing game, some
[..yawn..]

Quote:>I remember how your
>team was going to make the jaws of A1200 owners drop (AF interview).
>Exactly when did you do this??

Who DID make your jaw drop then? Some demo coder, no doubt.

--
=====================================================================

by **Angus Manwarin** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

> >I've got the timetable from a recent
> >Develop! conference and there's a speech by Martyn Brown about gameplay and
> >originality. I think this is rich considering Worms is a rip off of Sorched
> >Earth! Stuart Campbell may be a* at times, but he called that one
> >right.

> Hello Mr. Dragon. Would you care to mention an Amiga game that was
> so incredibly original that no-one could say "Oh but that's just a
> rip-off of XXXXX"?

> Go on.

Off the top of my head....

Lemmings?
Populous?
Dune II?
Deuteros?
Warhead?

You could probably still say it, but not with much validity, IMO.

--
All the best,
Angus Manwaring.

by **Philip Kaulfus** » Sun, 22 Jun 1997 04:00:00

Following his latest *, Stefan Boberg smeared on the wall in *...

: As for ripping off 'Scorched Earth' (sic), I think it's difficult to
: rip off a game released in 1997. Scorched Tanks on the other hand,
: maybe so, but then, that wasn't REALLY original either, was it?

Scorched Tanks is based on a PC game called Scorched Earth.

--
,---------------.-----------------------.-------------------------------------.

;---------------^------------.----------: Adam Lusted's Urban Massacre and |
|PhilK in UnderNet #AmigaCafe|"Creltorp"|Cut and Paste Productions' "The Game"|
;----------------------------^----------^-------------------------------------:
|Visit http://www.veryComputer.com/, Reeves & Mortimer stuff|
|and lots of other stuff that can't really fit into this already oversized sig|
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------------