advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Jeff Marte » Wed, 06 Feb 1991 21:48:36



Rick,

I'd lean towards the Amiga, though at least partially due to ignorance
of the Atari line.  Anyhow, here's my reasons:

1) The A500 seems at least comparable to the old 1040ST, plus it
multitasks.  Multitasking, despite Apple's claims to the contrary, is
quite useful.

2) There are high end Amigas, allowing a migration path.  I don't know
of anything bigger than the 1040 on the Atari side, but that doesn't
mean it doesn't exist.

3) The installed base of Amigas is larger.  The Atari seems to be
fading, at least in the US.  I never see adds for them anymore, and
don't know anyone who has one.

4) I've got a 4.5 year old Amiga 1000 which I've been quite happy
with.  It's been a reliable and very usable machine.

One thing I do like about the Atari ST is the monochrome display.  I
saw it in a dealer once, about 4.5 years ago, and it was quite sharp.
The color display on the A500 and A1000 are somewhat lacking for text
applications, but they are adequate.

I'm following up in the slightly more appropriate group
comp.sys.amiga.advocacy in case you're interested in following this
thread further.
--

        "We have to shoot and kill and destroy.  We represent
        everything that's good in the world." -- Max Smart

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Anub » Sat, 09 Feb 1991 00:57:11



>Notice the third word in the paragraph...OPINION.  Obviously this man
>never EVER owned an ST.  I would contend, that after the equavalent ad ons
>such as a color board/graphics card, in Europe which there are many,
>the ST would look just as nice as an AMIGA machine.  

First of all, the add ons you are talking about are hard to impossible
to get in the US.  
Second of all, the add ons that you are talking about are either specialty
items for people who want to work in graphics (and thus have very limited
support) or are not as great as you are making them out to be.

I have an Atari ST with a JRI 4096 color board.  Big deal, I have 4096
color pallette.  I can't display all of them at once like I can on my
Amiga 3000.

Quote:>As for sales, thats funny, a German friend on my floor says thats all there
>are in Germany is Atari's with a few Amiga's sprinkled here and there???

Amiga is doing quite well overseas.  Atari is doing well from what I
hear, but I've also heard that they are failing in support and are
being sold mostly as game machines.

Atari in the US has almost no support at all.

Quote:>Atari has very healthy markets abroad and just like commodore, Atari has
>yet to take advantage of the USA market.

Atari take advantage of the US market?! HAHAHAHAHA!  Don't be so absurd!
You know full well that it will never happen.  Atari has lost their chance.
Software companies are stopping their support, dealers are switching computers
or going out of business...How many Atari owners live near an Atari dealer?

Quote:>If you want to do word processing, I hardly think you would have time to
>play a game at the same time.  As for multi tasking, Atari multitasks
>REALISTICALLY.  That is, if you want to print something out, or download
>something or do something else like play music that doesn't require
>your constant interaction there are plenty of options available to help you
>do these things in the background so you don't waste time so you can do
>something else..like play games.

>Really, multitasking is WAY overplayed by AMIGA people.  They are not
>the only people who have multi tasking machines, its just that workbench
>supports this option automatically.  While on the ST its an add on.

Here again is the words of someone who has never had a multitasking
machine. First of all, the Amiga OS multitasks, but that is probably
what you meant.  You can't 'add on' multitasking to the ST, so stop
decieving this poor guy who is trying to find out information.  You
can use things like Revolver to stop one memory partition and switch
to another. this is not multitasking because you are doing one thing.
YOu can use things like Masterlink (hahaha...if they ever come out
with another version) to download in the backround, but that is pretty
much the extent of it.  You are alwasy very limited.  And don't breath
to hard while you are doing this, you might crash it!

I suggest anyone who is thinking of buying an ST look at the support
available for both machines and DO use both machines.  Take it from
someone who owns both...You DON'T want to buy an Atari.

Quote:>---Gregory

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=That is not dead which may eternal lie-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
*     Christoper Roth                    *   The Pyramid BBS (904)373-3989

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=Yet with strange eons even death may die-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Jari Leh » Mon, 11 Feb 1991 08:32:34




>>AMIGA-USERS, GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS NEWSGROUP!!!!

>>or I will definitely come and mess up yours with hundreds of articles
>>filled with the same kind of shit you've written here...

>  Take a look at the header. You've already done that. These articles
>were CROSS-POSTED meaning both groups get this crap. The Amiga gets it by
>far the most with the Mac vs Amiga, ST vs Amiga, NeXT vs Amiga flames that
>pop up constantly.

All people reading this article, pay attention!

I am deeply sorry that I posted that article here, so I cancelled it as
quickly as I could. But unfortunately someone got there before me and red it.

So if there are followups quoting that article of mine, please ignore them and
cancel them if they are yours.
This is too damn bad way to start a flame-war...

For information:

You can not possibly beleave this if you have red that article, but belive
it, it is the truth.
I USE BOTH ATARI AND AMIGA REGULARLY AND I THINK THAT BOTH MACHINES ARE
ABSOLUTELY USEFUL TOOLS FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED A COMPUTER OF THAT SIZE!

I HAVE MANY AMIGA-USERS AS FRIENDS AND I HAVE HIGH ACCESS-LEVELS TO IN
A NUMBER OF AMIGA-BBS'S. THE SYSOPS AND OTHER USERS PRETTY WELL KNOW THAT I
AM A ST-USER, BUT THEY COUNT ME TO THE GROUP OF MOST IMPORTANT USERS IN THO-
SE SYSTEMS.

But if you still after this keep throwing those flames on my face, I have to
admit that I am disappointed to you. If you distinguished Amiga-users are
as nice and fair as those I know, you except my apology and bury that
war-axe under your keyboard, so we could keep on the peaceful life on
our own usergroups.
I have to admit, that I get *a lot* carried away sometimes.
I think that my deep christian conviction sometimes goes over my brains
and fills me with the same hate that I feel toward those people who
insult those things that are holy to me.
Atari is definitely no SainT in my life!!! (nor is Amiga)

                                Jartsu


 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by John Bicke » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 07:24:13




> >Do you know any serious, famous musician using Amiga? I don't.
> >Do you know any serious, famous musician using Atari? I do, in fact too many
> >                                                       to count...

>   B.B. King!

    Devo have used the Amiga (DEVOVISION '88). There was some discussion
    elsewhere of their work with Timothy Leary on Amiga stuff.
--

***         "Patterns multiplying, re-direct our view" - Devo.          ***
 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Jari Leh » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 01:05:48



> HERE is a relative term. You mean inside your neighborhood?

I mean inside borders of a country called Finland...

Quote:> I'm curious
>, what 'official investigations' are these?

Investigations made by an organization controlled by the state of Finland.

Quote:> I'm more inclined to believe the ST is used more for games? Why?
> Because I know some ST pirates personally, and the pirating scene
> is humongous!

Here (in Finland) over 80% of ST-users are non-gamers (like me). Those
who want to play games usually buy an Amiga because pirate-games for
Amiga are far more easier to get here thab for Atari. That is a fact,
every ST- and Amiga-user here can verify that!
Here is also ST-pirating, of course. It is only gone so deep underground,
that you have to be very well connected and have a huge amount of ST-users
as good friends to even find a pirated software here. No-one trades it.
It only moves as a friend-to-friend gift...

Quote:>ST is sold in Europe with 'game packages' and it hooks right up to a
>TV with no monitor.

That is only because they seem to believe that this is the best marketing-
policy for Atari... In fact it ruins the reputation of ST as a serious
computer. Here no-one uses ST with TV-set. Majority has monochrome-monitor.
And the small group of power-users have multisyncs (like I do).
By the way, Amiga is absolutely beautiful with NEC 3D!

Quote:>  This must be a 'hacked' up port. I'm not aware of an official
>Atari AT&T Unix port yet. (Unix has to be licensed, it costs lots of $$$
>for the source). Besides, the Amiga can do everything you mentioned above.
>(i've downloaded and extracted simulatenously, vied GIF pics, formatted
>disks, etc)

It was a version under serious developement. It will be hell-expensive
when it is released, and it may well be TT-only.

Quote:>  Well, that can be debated. Multitasking doesn't mean concentrating
>on more than 1 task at a time. It means that you can put other tasks
>in the background, and split off sub tasks to do important things
>you want.
>  For instance, on my Unix here, I can hit CTRL-Z, stop rn, type
>'make' and put a compile in the background, then type 'fg' and resume
>rn while something is compiling.
>  Multitasking isn't a religion, its a luxury. Everytime I download
>something to my Amiga, I can extract it and runit while my terminal is
>still loaded and connected (and downloading).

That Multitasking-OS I have for my ST works like the regular ST-desktop.
The different tasks are in their own windows. You change between them simply
by clicking with mouse inside the window. And you can ewen go to the back-
round-process without bringing it out by holding down the right mouse-button.
This OS also has its dark points. It demands a huge amount of memory and
a very fast CPU to operate without complaints. But so does every OS with
multitasking.

Quote:>  I guess I can call you a 'MIDI' or 'DTP' maniac then? Just because
>I like multitasking doesn't mean I'm fantic about it. For me, its 'normal'
>I usually don't notice I'm multitasking, or realize how nice it is until
>I have to use an IBM/DOS or Mac.

Yep, I think I am a sort of MIDI and DTP maniac. But I still play games
every now and then. Games like Ultima... I don't like simple games.
Game is a simple one if you accomplish it in less than a day...
Multifinder is quite nice...

Quote:>  I have included a follow-up line in the header of this message, so
>if you wish to continue this 'discussion' you can reply there.

Altough I replied this time, I think discussions like this one are a pure
waste of time! No-one has no use for them, no-one gets any profit from them.

                        Jartsu


 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by John Hende » Mon, 11 Feb 1991 20:45:00





> HERE is a relative term. You mean inside your neighborhood? I'm curious

        "Here" in this case means Finland

Quote:>Also because the
>ST is sold in Europe with 'game packages' and it hooks right up to a
>TV with no monitor.

        This impression is probably gained from seeing English Atari
magazines. Ever seen any German St Magazines? Most Germans don't
even own colour monitors. You're basing your opinions on a limited
knowledge of the ST scene in Europe

Quote:>>>  Atari under Unix? What the hell is this? You mean Minix? or do you
>>>mean an emulated Atari running on a Workstation?

>  This must be a 'hacked' up port. I'm not aware of an official
>Atari AT&T Unix port yet. (Unix has to be licensed, it costs lots of $$$
>for the source). Besides, the Amiga can do everything you mentioned above.
>(i've downloaded and extracted simulatenously, vied GIF pics, formatted
>disks, etc)

        Again you show a lack of any knowledge about Unix on the TT. Just
as Amiga Unix was out in Universities this fall in beta test, so now
Atari Unix is out in Europe under beta. This is a real SVR4 port done
by a company contracted to Atari to do the port. It will be (or is)
running X-Desktop and who knows when we'll see it in North America.

        I just noticed you directed this followup to the advocacy group.
Thank you from the many atari users who wanted to see this thread
vanish asap.

>>>  What's the point? a 68030 system with no multitasking. Atari is the
>>>only company who hasn't released an 'official' multitasking kludge for
>>>their computer. Mac has system 7/multifinder, 386/486 has OS/2 and Windows
>>>and Unix. The Amiga has what it had since 1985.

>>I don't get it. Is multitasking some kind of religion to you? You don't
>>propably even buy a pen, unless it multitasks...
>>I have often found multitasking (specially in Unix) more confusing than useful.
>>Human beings can not concentrate to more than one task at a time.
>>Buy If I want to multitask, I'll do it. I have a true multitasking OS for
>>my ST. One of my Amiga-using friens said that it is better than Amiga's.
>>Again something made in Germany. Hope those never get there, because there
>>are so many people like you, who are too biassed to understand anything
>>strange and new.
>  Well, that can be debated. Multitasking doesn't mean concentrating
>on more than 1 task at a time. It means that you can put other tasks
>in the background, and split off sub tasks to do important things
>you want.
>  For instance, on my Unix here, I can hit CTRL-Z, stop rn, type
>'make' and put a compile in the background, then type 'fg' and resume
>rn while something is compiling.
>  Multitasking isn't a religion, its a luxury. Everytime I download
>something to my Amiga, I can extract it and runit while my terminal is
>still loaded and connected (and downloading).

>>>  Seriously. The Atari's niche is MIDI. You don't need fast CPUs for
>>>MIDI(atleast not above 16mhz). The Amiga's niche is multitasking
>>>and video which does demand faster CPUs. (real time video, compression,
>>>ray tracing).
>>>  I have nothing personal against STs. If I need MIDI I'd buy one. But
>>>personally, I am hooked on multitasking and can't do without it. Also
>>>since I work with Unix, the fact that AmigaDOS is simular to Unix
>>>makes it attractive.

>>Good enough MIDI-software needs fast CPUs. I am about to go for 33MHz.
>>You are the first Amiga-user that is proven to be a multitasking-maniac.
>>I know about 60 Amiga-users, 10 of them are my good friends...
>>They either have nothing agaist ST, some of them even use one frequently.
>>My opinion is that Amiga is a master of graphics and soud, but it is not
>>very handy in word-processing, DTP or things like that. OPINION!
>  I guess I can call you a 'MIDI' or 'DTP' maniac then? Just because
>I like multitasking doesn't mean I'm fantic about it. For me, its 'normal'
>I usually don't notice I'm multitasking, or realize how nice it is until
>I have to use an IBM/DOS or Mac.

>>But let's drop this shit. Peace is far more comfortable. We have thrown
>>enough flames to each other's face now. Let's stop before it is too late.

>>BTW, PCs are the most unuserfriendly machines I have seen. I think Mac is
>>something special. But if you really want something cool, get NeXT or
>>Sun SPARCstation. Those are far more superior than any of these Atari- and
>>Commodore-toys discussed here...  ***OPINION AGAIN!!!***

>  I have included a follow-up line in the header of this message, so
>if you wish to continue this 'discussion' you can reply there.

>>                        Jartsu



--


                              or ubc.cs!van-bc!jonh!jhenders
 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Ray Cromwe » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 07:40:11






>>Also because the
>>ST is sold in Europe with 'game packages' and it hooks right up to a
>>TV with no monitor.

>    This impression is probably gained from seeing English Atari
>magazines. Ever seen any German St Magazines? Most Germans don't
>even own colour monitors. You're basing your opinions on a limited
>knowledge of the ST scene in Europe

  I'm also basing this on personal experience with the ST pirate scene.
I have an ST friend, whom I regularly visit, and he tells me ST piracy
is RAMPANT, to the point that software houses are switching platforms.
I know several ST pirates, in fact, I have found pirate ST files scattered
around this unix cluster recently, and even ST pirate boards set up
on Unix guest accounts. (they are all deleted/wiped now)

  The only 'professional' use I see for the ST is MIDI. There's nothing
the Amiga can't do that the ST can except for MIDI. (well even now,
thats false, Amiga can do MIDI with an adapter, and we have software like
Dr T.'s now. The Atari got a market boost because it has MIDI built in.)

 As a matter of fact, what constitutes professional usage? Almost all
computer users (no matter which computer brand) have a few games.
The majority of ST users I know are *agers who play games and/or
do school work. The same goes for Amiga users.

  There's nothing that makes the ST more professional than the Amiga.

Quote:>>>>  Atari under Unix? What the hell is this? You mean Minix? or do you
>>>>mean an emulated Atari running on a Workstation?

>>  This must be a 'hacked' up port. I'm not aware of an official
>>Atari AT&T Unix port yet. (Unix has to be licensed, it costs lots of $$$
>>for the source). Besides, the Amiga can do everything you mentioned above.
>>(i've downloaded and extracted simulatenously, vied GIF pics, formatted
>>disks, etc)

>    Again you show a lack of any knowledge about Unix on the TT. Just
>as Amiga Unix was out in Universities this fall in beta test, so now
>Atari Unix is out in Europe under beta. This is a real SVR4 port done
>by a company contracted to Atari to do the port. It will be (or is)
>running X-Desktop and who knows when we'll see it in North America.

 Well when I saw the announcement for the TT, there was a small mention
that 'Atari is going to port Unix'. The Amiga already has UNIX, its out.
Its not Beta, its DONE.
>    I just noticed you directed this followup to the advocacy group.
>Thank you from the many atari users who wanted to see this thread
>vanish asap.

>>>>  What's the point? a 68030 system with no multitasking. Atari is the
>>>>only company who hasn't released an 'official' multitasking kludge for
>>>>their computer. Mac has system 7/multifinder, 386/486 has OS/2 and Windows
>>>>and Unix. The Amiga has what it had since 1985.

>>>I don't get it. Is multitasking some kind of religion to you? You don't
>>>propably even buy a pen, unless it multitasks...
>>>I have often found multitasking (specially in Unix) more confusing than useful.
>>>Human beings can not concentrate to more than one task at a time.
>>>Buy If I want to multitask, I'll do it. I have a true multitasking OS for
>>>my ST. One of my Amiga-using friens said that it is better than Amiga's.
>>>Again something made in Germany. Hope those never get there, because there
>>>are so many people like you, who are too biassed to understand anything
>>>strange and new.
>>  Well, that can be debated. Multitasking doesn't mean concentrating
>>on more than 1 task at a time. It means that you can put other tasks
>>in the background, and split off sub tasks to do important things
>>you want.
>>  For instance, on my Unix here, I can hit CTRL-Z, stop rn, type
>>'make' and put a compile in the background, then type 'fg' and resume
>>rn while something is compiling.
>>  Multitasking isn't a religion, its a luxury. Everytime I download
>>something to my Amiga, I can extract it and runit while my terminal is
>>still loaded and connected (and downloading).

>>>>  Seriously. The Atari's niche is MIDI. You don't need fast CPUs for
>>>>MIDI(atleast not above 16mhz). The Amiga's niche is multitasking
>>>>and video which does demand faster CPUs. (real time video, compression,
>>>>ray tracing).
>>>>  I have nothing personal against STs. If I need MIDI I'd buy one. But
>>>>personally, I am hooked on multitasking and can't do without it. so
>>>>since I work with Unix, the fact that AmigaDOS is simular to Unix
>>>>makes it attractive.

>>>Good enough MIDI-software needs fast CPUs. I am about to go for 33MHz.
>>>You are the first Amiga-user that is proven to be a multitasking-maniac.
>>>I know about 60 Amiga-users, 10 of them are my good friends...
>>>They either have nothing agaist ST, some of them even use one frequently.
>>>My opinion is that Amiga is a master of graphics and soud, but it is not
>>>very handy in word-processing, DTP or things like that. OPINION!
>>  I guess I can call you a 'MIDI' or 'DTP' maniac then? Just because
>>I like multitasking doesn't mean I'm fantic about it. For me, its 'normal'
>>I usually don't notice I'm multitasking, or realize how nice it is until
>>I have to use an IBM/DOS or Mac.

>>>But let's drop this shit. Peace is far more comfortable. We have thrown
>>>enough flames to each other's face now. Let's stop before it is too late.

>>>BTW, PCs are the most unuserfriendly machines I have seen. I think Mac is
>>>something special. But if you really want something cool, get NeXT or
>>>Sun SPARCstation. Those are far more superior than any of these Atari- and
>>>Commodore-toys discussed here...  ***OPINION AGAIN!!!***

>>  I have included a follow-up line in the header of this message, so
>>if you wish to continue this 'discussion' you can reply there.

>>>                    Jartsu


>--


>                              or ubc.cs!van-bc!jonh!jhenders

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Greg Ha » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 09:19:24



Quote:  writes:
>That Multitasking-OS I have for my ST works like the regular ST-desktop.
>The different tasks are in their own windows. You change between them simply
>by clicking with mouse inside the window. And you can ewen go to the back-
>round-process without bringing it out by holding down the right mouse-button.
>This OS also has its dark points. It demands a huge amount of memory and
>a very fast CPU to operate without complaints. But so does every OS with
>multitasking.

Jari, I don't want to call you a liar, but maybe you'd better describe that
"multitasking" OS a bit better.  It sounds like a simple task-switcher to
me.  Multitasking means that all of the programs are running at once.

BTW, your statement that every multitasking OS requires huge amounts of
memory and a fast CPU is simply wrong.  My A500 still has the stock 7.14Mhz
68000 in it.  I have 3.5MB of RAM, but I use 1.5MB of it as a recoverable
RAM-Disk, and I have 1.3MB free.  That means that I am using about 700K of
memory and I have 10 CLI-processes alone running.  In all, there are 21
tasks currently running on my system.  I use this particular setup every
day, and the machine still works as if each program is the only one running.
That's basically due to the provisions made in the OS that eliminate CPU-
intensive programming techniques such as busy-waiting fo keyboard input.

Greg
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't know what it is I like about you, but I like it a lot." --
                                         Led Zeppelin, Communication Breakdown

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Joseph Hillenbu » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 14:21:43






[...]
>>>>  Atari under Unix? What the hell is this? You mean Minix? or do you
>>>>mean an emulated Atari running on a Workstation?

>>  This must be a 'hacked' up port. I'm not aware of an official
>>Atari AT&T Unix port yet. (Unix has to be licensed, it costs lots of $$$
>>for the source). Besides, the Amiga can do everything you mentioned above.
>>(i've downloaded and extracted simulatenously, vied GIF pics, formatted
>>disks, etc)

>    Again you show a lack of any knowledge about Unix on the TT. Just
>as Amiga Unix was out in Universities this fall in beta test, so now
>Atari Unix is out in Europe under beta. This is a real SVR4 port done
>by a company contracted to Atari to do the port. It will be (or is)
>running X-Desktop and who knows when we'll see it in North America.

Heehee...Atari couldn't do the port themselves? Atari CAN'T do well in
North America. They've shot their reputation all to hell here. And they're
loosing it in Europe. Atari is the ONLY company that I know of that *ed
upward compatability up because they used an illegal instruction. (With the
exception of Tandy.)

[...]

Quote:>>>I don't get it. Is multitasking some kind of religion to you? You don't
>>>propably even buy a pen, unless it multitasks...
>>>I have often found multitasking (specially in Unix) more confusing than useful.

Well, for me, and most Amiga users (if not all) multitasking blends right in.
I couldn't stand a single-tasking machine, and thats one of the MANY reasons
why I won't be caught dead owning a PC or Mac.

Quote:>>>Human beings can not concentrate to more than one task at a time.
>>>Buy If I want to multitask, I'll do it. I have a true multitasking OS for
>>>my ST. One of my Amiga-using friens said that it is better than Amiga's.
>>>Again something made in Germany. Hope those never get there, because there
>>>are so many people like you, who are too biassed to understand anything
>>>strange and new.

Yes, but it costs. We get it FREE, and it works. WHERE it's made is no
concern, unless you refer to the Soviet Union, where the public technological
level is near zilch.

[...]

Quote:>>>>  Seriously. The Atari's niche is MIDI. You don't need fast CPUs for
>>>>MIDI(atleast not above 16mhz). The Amiga's niche is multitasking
>>>>and video which does demand faster CPUs. (real time video, compression,
>>>>ray tracing).

To actually display the video/sound doesn't require a fast CPU. Just lots and
lots of RAM. The rendering, etc requires the RAM.

Quote:>>>>  I have nothing personal against STs. If I need MIDI I'd buy one. But
>>>>personally, I am hooked on multitasking and can't do without it. Also
>>>>since I work with Unix, the fact that AmigaDOS is simular to Unix
>>>>makes it attractive.

>>>Good enough MIDI-software needs fast CPUs. I am about to go for 33MHz.
>>>You are the first Amiga-user that is proven to be a multitasking-maniac.
>>>I know about 60 Amiga-users, 10 of them are my good friends...
>>>They either have nothing agaist ST, some of them even use one frequently.
>>>My opinion is that Amiga is a master of graphics and soud, but it is not
>>>very handy in word-processing, DTP or things like that. OPINION!

Really? Neither the ST or Amiga is word processing machines, DTP, maybe but
The ST's best DTP program is also out for the Amiga.

[...]

Quote:>>>BTW, PCs are the most unuserfriendly machines I have seen. I think Mac is
>>>something special. But if you really want something cool, get NeXT or
>>>Sun SPARCstation. Those are far more superior than any of these Atari- and
>>>Commodore-toys discussed here...  ***OPINION AGAIN!!!***

When the '040's are available in mass quantities, an Amiga will eat a
NeXT or SPARCstation I for lunch.

[Lots of boring .sigs deleted]

--
   //   Joseph Hillenburg, Secretary, Bloomington Amiga Users Group

       "Only Apple could slow down a 68030 chip" --Computer Shopper

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Peter da Sil » Tue, 12 Feb 1991 21:22:35



> That Multitasking-OS I have for my ST works like the regular ST-desktop.
> The different tasks are in their own windows. You change between them simply
> by clicking with mouse inside the window. And you can ewen go to the back-
> round-process without bringing it out by holding down the right mouse-button.

"The" background process? You mean the different tasks are not executing
concurrently in their own windows? Or do you mean it pulls the damn Mac trick
and wants to pop the current process to the top?

Quote:> This OS also has its dark points. It demands a huge amount of memory and
> a very fast CPU to operate without complaints. But so does every OS with
> multitasking.

This is pure hype. I've no complaints with multitasking on my stock Amiga 1000
with 512K and two floppies. Going back a few years, I've used a 3-user
development system with a single 4-bit CPU, and 12K of RAM. Multitasking
doesn't require any great resources... it's the cost of back-patching onto
a monitor-type operating system that causes so much trouble for IBM, Microsoft,
Apple, and now it appears Atari.
--
Peter da Silva.   `-_-'

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Kevin Richard O'Too » Wed, 13 Feb 1991 03:50:10


This is pathetic.  Let's get out of our dungeons people!  Do we really
have nothing better to do with our lives than argue about Amiga vs. ST?

It would seem that there are a few people in this world who base the
very existence of their self confidence on proving that their machine is
better than everyone else's.  I too have fallen prey to this complex
from time to time...but think about it:

You people are fighting it out around the world, utilizing hardware that
had to cost tons of money, in order to decide whether or not TOS and
Workbench suck.

Come out of your caves, get some social lives.  Didn't you hear?
There's a WAR going on.  Stop arguing about friggin' computers!  Get
lives!

{Flame repellent suit on? check.
  Fire extinguishers ready? check.
  Good no flames, just thoughts.}

Later,
Kevin R. O'Toole

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Jari Leh » Wed, 13 Feb 1991 18:03:16



>Heehee...Atari couldn't do the port themselves? Atari CAN'T do well in
>North America. They've shot their reputation all to hell here. And they're
>loosing it in Europe. Atari is the ONLY company that I know of that *ed
>upward compatability up because they used an illegal instruction. (With the
>exception of Tandy.)

Laugh it up, jerk. Can you do it? Why not use a third party if they can do
it better?
Being an Amiga-user does not give you the right to insult the name of Atari,
even that I kind of agree your opinion. I don't either have any right to
insult Amiga, and why to insult A GOOD MACHINE?

Quote:>Well, for me, and most Amiga users (if not all) multitasking blends right in.
>I couldn't stand a single-tasking machine, and thats one of the MANY reasons
>why I won't be caught dead owning a PC or Mac.

I wouldn't get a PC (486 & UNIX is an exception) either. Mac, maybe,
multifinder is good enough for me, and Mac definitely is poverful enough
for most of us! I would get myself a A3000, if it would not be so hell expen-
sive in here. (Finland) But NeXT and Sun and Atari TT ARE real competitors!

Quote:>Yes, but it costs. We get it FREE, and it works. WHERE it's made is no
>concern, unless you refer to the Soviet Union, where the public technological
>level is near zilch.

Free Amiga? Where? I want one now!!! Do not even mention Soviet Union here,
we have enough trouble because it being our neighbour...

Quote:>To actually display the video/sound doesn't require a fast CPU. Just lots and
>lots of RAM. The rendering, etc requires the RAM.

If we need RAM, we go and get RAM!

Quote:>Really? Neither the ST or Amiga is word processing machines, DTP, maybe but
>The ST's best DTP program is also out for the Amiga.

Calamus for Amiga? Then you definitely need better display than the standard
Amiga has...
Calamus for Amiga? Haven't heard such thing...

Quote:>When the '040's are available in mass quantities, an Amiga will eat a
>NeXT or SPARCstation I for lunch.

Well see about that! Amiga with 040 will be so expensive that it will never
be a real alternative... NeXT is very reasonable priced, it is cheaper than
A3000!!!
(If I get myself a NeXT here, it will cost about 18.000,- FIM. I can't
get a good-enough A3000 package under 23.000,- FIM...)

                        Jartsu


 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Jari Leh » Wed, 13 Feb 1991 18:59:43



>Jari, I don't want to call you a liar, but maybe you'd better describe that
>"multitasking" OS a bit better.  It sounds like a simple task-switcher to
>me.  Multitasking means that all of the programs are running at once.

You don't have to. It is no switcher, you just have to select which window
is the active one. You can only do things with the active one. Others remain
running at the backround. You can also do things at the unactive windows
by holding down the right mouse-button.
Only thing it doesn't do is updating the unactive windows during process.
But when for example a download is ready on a terminal, it updates the window
to let you know about this.

This OS is a German beta-version, a very restricted one. I am not allowed
to give any further details out!

Quote:>BTW, your statement that every multitasking OS requires huge amounts of
>memory and a fast CPU is simply wrong.  My A500 still has the stock 7.14Mhz
>68000 in it.  I have 3.5MB of RAM, but I use 1.5MB of it as a recoverable
>RAM-Disk, and I have 1.3MB free.  That means that I am using about 700K of
>memory and I have 10 CLI-processes alone running.  In all, there are 21
>tasks currently running on my system.  I use this particular setup every
>day, and the machine still works as if each program is the only one running.
>That's basically due to the provisions made in the OS that eliminate CPU-
>intensive programming techniques such as busy-waiting fo keyboard input.

The need of speed and memory is because programs for ST are not planned
to be run in a multitasking-OS. They reserve certain amount of memory
to run and if they can't get it, they will crash.
Speed is needed for... You must know!
I had Cubase and Calamus running simultaneously, that definitely was slow!
Especially when I tried to output to laser from both simultaneously.
It worked, but was very slow indeed!

                Jartsu


 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Greg Ha » Thu, 14 Feb 1991 08:53:11


My news reader choked every time I tried to follow up to this post, so I had
to re-post it.  


    >Jari, I don't want to call you a liar, but maybe you'd better describe that
    >"multitasking" OS a bit better.  It sounds like a simple task-switcher to
    >me.  Multitasking means that all of the programs are running at once.

    You don't have to. It is no switcher, you just have to select which window
    is the active one. You can only do things with the active one. Others remain
    running at the backround. You can also do things at the unactive windows
    by holding down the right mouse-button.
    Only thing it doesn't do is updating the unactive windows during process.
    But when for example a download is ready on a terminal, it updates the window
    to let you know about this.

Well, that certainly sounds better than other multitasking implementations
on otherwise single-tasking machines.

    This OS is a German beta-version, a very restricted one. I am not allowed
    to give any further details out!

    >BTW, your statement that every multitasking OS requires huge amounts of
    >memory and a fast CPU is simply wrong.  My A500 still has the stock 7.14Mhz
    >68000 in it.  I have 3.5MB of RAM, but I use 1.5MB of it as a recoverable
    >RAM-Disk, and I have 1.3MB free.  That means that I am using about 700K of
    >memory and I have 10 CLI-processes alone running.  In all, there are 21
    >tasks currently running on my system.  I use this particular setup every
    >day, and the machine still works as if each program is the only one running.
    >That's basically due to the provisions made in the OS that eliminate CPU-
    >intensive programming techniques such as busy-waiting fo keyboard input.

    The need of speed and memory is because programs for ST are not planned
    to be run in a multitasking-OS. They reserve certain amount of memory
    to run and if they can't get it, they will crash.
    Speed is needed for... You must know!
    I had Cubase and Calamus running simultaneously, that definitely was slow!
    Especially when I tried to output to laser from both simultaneously.
    It worked, but was very slow indeed!

That's the problem with trying to multitask in a machine that doesn't have
proprietary multitasking.  You see, on the Amiga programs use the OS routines
to do I/O and other tasks that might conflict with other programs.  When
a program wants keyboard input, for example, the it tells the OS to wake it
up when a key is pressed and then goes into a sleep stage.  On other systems
that don't normally multitask, the program would just sit there and poll the
keyboard until a key is pressed.  Busy-waiting is what eats up most of the
speed of a multitasking system, so it is avoided on the Amiga.  The rest of
the OS is designed with a similar philosophy, so what you get is clean, fast
multitasking without the need for tons of memory or a super-fast CPU.  I
could easily run Pro Page, Excellence, and DPaint while using my multi-shell
terminal.  I wouldn't even notice a loss of speed since these programs,
although ready for input at any time, are not taking CPU time.

                    Jartsu

Greg
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't know what it is I like about you, but I like it a lot." --
                                         Led Zeppelin, Communication Breakdown

 
 
 

advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

Post by Howard C » Fri, 15 Feb 1991 08:03:25


Shoulda known when I started getting behind in this newsgroup it was
'cause a flame war was going on, nothing else ever generates nearly
as much traffic...    }-)


>Here again is the words of someone who has never had a multitasking
>machine. First of all, the Amiga OS multitasks, but that is probably
>what you meant.  You can't 'add on' multitasking to the ST, so stop
>decieving this poor guy who is trying to find out information.  You
>can use things like Revolver to stop one memory partition and switch
>to another. this is not multitasking because you are doing one thing.
>YOu can use things like Masterlink (hahaha...if they ever come out
>with another version) to download in the backround, but that is pretty
>much the extent of it.  You are alwasy very limited.  And don't breath
>to hard while you are doing this, you might crash it!

You're really confused here. There is nothing in the ST hardware that
prevents it from multitasking. You can add various hooks into the ST
OS to allow pre-emptive multitasking. That's what MicroRTX does, or
MiNT, or MX2. All of these packages work, though they present varying
degrees of Unix-flavor. Contrary to your belief, this is real multitasking,
and all three of these programs maintain TOS compatibility. It's not
very thrilling on an 8MHz 68000, but it works.
--

Flame all you want - we'll take more.

 
 
 

1. advice please - Atari-ST or Amiga

                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        I redirected this thread to the .advocacy group. This rocket
scientist redirected it back to .atari again. Perhaps one of you
amiga owners could explain to him why .advocacy was created.
        Or maybe he just wants to continue this stupid flame war.

--


                              or ubc.cs!van-bc!jonh!jhenders

2. Trade your CD-ROM version with my 3.5" version?

3. iso image?

4. War Games C64,Atari,Apple,Atari ST

5. TT030 clock stopped!

6. Atari-ST emulator required

7. HP DeskJet 710 printer

8. Amiga 500, Amiga 3000 & Atari ST forsale

9. Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

10. Atari ST/Sparrow/Falcon (was re: Amiga Falcon)

11. Atari ST mouse to Amiga 3000