COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Thorne Kont » Sat, 26 Sep 1992 08:13:39



HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...

My opinions for what they are worth...

1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
   Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.
2) MAINTAIN YOUR USER-BASE. OFFER UPGRADE PATHS to the new high-end
   machines. If you alienate your user base, new software products
   will become scarcer. There will be no repeat sales to previous
   Amiga owners as they migrate to other platforms due to the
   lack of software necessary to get the job done. HAVEN'T YOU HEARD
   THE MAXIM THAT GOES:

                    SATISFY THE CUSTOMER!

 3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.
 4) STOP ALIENIATING THIRD PARTY SUPPORT...
    A sale by them means a sale of another Amiga...
    How long will it take before an Amiga 4000 Video Toaster is
    produced? Helping out third party vendors helps your sales.
 5) ADVERTISE! Atari is spending $60 million dollars to roll out
    the Falcon. (Source San Jose Mercury News) The new sci-fi
    series Babylon 5 seems a good place to start.
 6) A4000 needs immediate work before market release. Sure it has
    great new graphics, but where is the improved sound? You can't
    tout it as a multimedia machine if you are using yesteryear's
    technology.

Author's note:
                     If this post sounds like something you
                     might have read here, you are probably
                     right. Most of the above came from people
                     that post here frequently, some die-hard
                     Amiga *s. If you aren't going to treat
                     us right, then we will go elsewhere.
                     And your sales will suffer from our loss.

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Jarkko Lindbl » Sun, 27 Sep 1992 03:01:52


: HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...
:
: My opinions for what they are worth...
:
: 1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
:    Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.

Atari followed Apple quite well - Apple offered a 16 bit system with
32 bit CPU and Atari cripples it's system by only having a single bus
for both graphics and programs - in any case the system crawls...

--
Jarkko Lindblad


 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Chris Fu » Sun, 27 Sep 1992 11:51:24



>HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...
>My opinions for what they are worth...

[la de da, la de de]

I've got an idea, why don't you try mailing to:

(You don't have to stop posting here, but all of you guys with neato keen
ideas should SEND them to commie!)

--

Christopher B. Fury        | "...reality was once a primative method of crowd  

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by George Robbi » Sun, 27 Sep 1992 05:05:34



> HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...

> My opinions for what they are worth...

> 1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
>    Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.

Interesting notion.  Should we just stop selling A500's and A600's
in favor of a model with an '030 that retails for $100-$200 more
as our low end.  Does that make sense or should we both provide a
higher performance model and keep the low end units until such time
as the marketplace tells us that 16-bits doesn't sell at any price-point?

Quote:> 2) MAINTAIN YOUR USER-BASE. OFFER UPGRADE PATHS to the new high-end
>    machines. If you alienate your user base, new software products
>    will become scarcer. There will be no repeat sales to previous
>    Amiga owners as they migrate to other platforms due to the
>    lack of software necessary to get the job done. HAVEN'T YOU HEARD
>    THE MAXIM THAT GOES:

>                     SATISFY THE CUSTOMER!

Haven't we been fairly consistant about offering various upgrade paths
in the past?  Typically these have been in the form of incentive
discounts, but they seem fairly popular at the time, eh?

Also please note that we have put substantial effort into maintaining
a degree of upward compatibility in the expansion slots, video slots
cpu slots, video and other connectors.  If we made everything plug
compatible with the A500 or A1000 or A2000 the systems would be more
expensive, non-competitive and we'd get slammed on styling.

Are most customers statisfied or not?  Note that satisfied doesn't mean
satiated...

Quote:>  3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.

A good idea.  SCSI CD-ROM should work with any of them, given that
someone comes up with a SCSI PCMCIA card for the A600.  CDTV is a
more diffcult issue.

Quote:>  4) STOP ALIENIATING THIRD PARTY SUPPORT...
>     A sale by them means a sale of another Amiga...
>     How long will it take before an Amiga 4000 Video Toaster is
>     produced? Helping out third party vendors helps your sales.

Third party support is a good thing, but it's only one factor when
it comes to designing new systems. Our priority is to keep the systems
competitive.  We like to leave niches where 3-rd parties can add
value and make money, but they have to be willing to advance/invest
in new products as we move along.

Developers that believe the world revolves around them are apt to
feel alienated...  Developers whose niche can be defined as a
addressing a deficiency in an old product shouldn't be surprised
when we correct the deficiency in new products.  Developers that
think we can cling to old assembly technology, casework and
interfaces across product generations are unrealistic.

Quote:>  5) ADVERTISE! Atari is spending $60 million dollars to roll out
>     the Falcon. (Source San Jose Mercury News) The new sci-fi
>     series Babylon 5 seems a good place to start.

$60M - this would be pretty impressive considering the hole that
Atari is in - sure it wasn't "up to $60M"?

As a side issue.  Is there a commiteed release date yet?  When?
Will the released machine match the "specifications" posted here
by the Atari fans?  Will the price be what has been suggested and
will it include a hard drive at that price or not?

Quote:>  6) A4000 needs immediate work before market release. Sure it has
>     great new graphics, but where is the improved sound? You can't
>     tout it as a multimedia machine if you are using yesteryear's
>     technology.

It's been released.  It's a considerable improvement over the A3000
and is extensible (via slots) by either CBM or 3-rd party products
to address many of what you consider deficiencies, right?

Quote:> Author's note:
>                      If this post sounds like something you
>                      might have read here, you are probably
>                      right. Most of the above came from people
>                      that post here frequently, some die-hard
>                      Amiga *s. If you aren't going to treat
>                      us right, then we will go elsewhere.
>                      And your sales will suffer from our loss.

You really have to address whether your "treat us right" is realistic.
If based on expectations that aren't in line with industry and previous
Commodore practices, think harder.  If you can't objectively assess the
new products because of expectations based on rumors, opinions or
exposure to the hypercritical "advocacy" here, think harder...

If you honestly don't Commodore is "treating you right", all I can
say is that the people I work with are trying pretty damn hard and
you are free to see if the grass is really greener elsewhere.

Somehow, I don't think it's Atari.  You might like Apple, but you're
still going to be paying a premium up front.  You might have fun in
Cloneland, but it's certainly not because the IBM, Intel or all of
the manufacturers are "good guys"...

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Frank R. Dana J » Mon, 28 Sep 1992 11:36:39



|> > 1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
|> >    Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.
|>
|> Interesting notion.  Should we just stop selling A500's and A600's
|> in favor of a model with an '030 that retails for $100-$200 more
|> as our low end.  Does that make sense or should we both provide a
|> higher performance model and keep the low end units until such time
|> as the marketplace tells us that 16-bits doesn't sell at any price-point?

YES! *y hell, Y-E-S!!!! Don't stop selling the A600, but put at LEAST a
68020 into it. And stop selling that stupid no-hard-drive option. Computers just
don't COST $400 anymore. The Amiga can still be the best value for the money
without being the LAST under $500 computer! Even INFLATION should have brought
prices up over that range by now.

The marketplace will never tell you that 16-bit machines don't sell, especially
not when they're as cheap as the A500/600. But sometimes, the dealer has to
take the advantage.

This little quandary (sp?) reminds me of the old problem with 9600+ baud modems.
Way back when, 3 or 4 years ago when they were just starting to push into the
consumer market, nobody wanted to go out and buy a 9600. The users didn't want
them, because none of their BBSs supported them anyway. The SysOps didn't want
them, because none of their users could take advantage of the higher speeds
anyway. When a few far-sighted SysOps went out and bought their HSTs, the market
really took off. Users started buying them, and then more SysOps installed them,
and then MORE users bought them, and et cetera. Sometimes, the thrust for change
has to come from the suppliers, not the end-users. If Commodore would stop
selling 68000 Amigas, it would not kill their market. It would just mean that
more people would be forced to buy the higher-performance machine instead of,
as some people buy, the "cheapest one around". Then, we'd ALL benefit.

|> >  4) STOP ALIENIATING THIRD PARTY SUPPORT...
|> >     A sale by them means a sale of another Amiga...
|> >     How long will it take before an Amiga 4000 Video Toaster is
|> >     produced? Helping out third party vendors helps your sales.
|>
|> Third party support is a good thing, but it's only one factor when
|> it comes to designing new systems. Our priority is to keep the systems
|> competitive.  We like to leave niches where 3-rd parties can add
|> value and make money, but they have to be willing to advance/invest
|> in new products as we move along.

It should be a _M_A_J_O_R_ factor, tho... without support, a computer is useless
as anything more than a doorstop.

|> >  5) ADVERTISE! Atari is spending $60 million dollars to roll out
|> >     the Falcon. (Source San Jose Mercury News) The new sci-fi
|> >     series Babylon 5 seems a good place to start.
|>
|> $60M - this would be pretty impressive considering the hole that
|> Atari is in - sure it wasn't "up to $60M"?

What is COMMODORE spending to advertise the NEW Amigas, tho? How about the line
in general?

<And please, PLEASE don't bring back Stevie!!!!!>    8)

|> >  6) A4000 needs immediate work before market release. Sure it has
|> >     great new graphics, but where is the improved sound? You can't
|> >     tout it as a multimedia machine if you are using yesteryear's
|> >     technology.
|>
|> It's been released.  It's a considerable improvement over the A3000
|> and is extensible (via slots) by either CBM or 3-rd party products
|> to address many of what you consider deficiencies, right?

But all of what you PUT IN (HD drives, more colors) had already been done by
third parties, and much better in my opinion! What's the point of putting out
a new computer unless it's better than everything else out there?????

(I agree that HD drives were a necessity, and I'm REALLY glad you decided to
include them, and the new colors are nice to have, tho no better than ANY other
computer out there (including third-party upgraded Amigas...) but it's not
enough, IMHO, to justify a new release, with a new model number)

|> > Author's note:
|> >                      If this post sounds like something you
|> >                      might have read here, you are probably
|> >                      right. Most of the above came from people
|> >                      that post here frequently, some die-hard
|> >                      Amiga *s. If you aren't going to treat
|> >                      us right, then we will go elsewhere.
|> >                      And your sales will suffer from our loss.
|>
|> You really have to address whether your "treat us right" is realistic.
|> If based on expectations that aren't in line with industry and previous
|> Commodore practices, think harder.  If you can't objectively assess the
|> new products because of expectations based on rumors, opinions or
|> exposure to the hypercritical "advocacy" here, think harder...

I'm making my assessments based on the 6 pages of specs released by Commodore
after the World of Commodore in Pasadena. Is that acceptable?   8)

--
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======    
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
           living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Erik Funkenbus » Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:25:11



>HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...

huh?  wha?  did you say something?

Quote:>My opinions for what they are worth...

I think you should pay US for reading them...

Quote:>1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
>   Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.

Both the Atari and Apple *NEED* 030 based machines to do the job a 68000 or
020 based Amiga could do.  Since their graphics systems suck so much CPU time,
they need higher powered CPU's just to be usable.  In apples case, you need an
030 just to make their OS usable.

Quote:>2) MAINTAIN YOUR USER-BASE. OFFER UPGRADE PATHS to the new high-end
>   machines. If you alienate your user base, new software products
>   will become scarcer. There will be no repeat sales to previous
>   Amiga owners as they migrate to other platforms due to the
>   lack of software necessary to get the job done. HAVEN'T YOU HEARD
>   THE MAXIM THAT GOES:

>                    SATISFY THE CUSTOMER!

Commodore does more for their customers than ANY OTHER computer manufacturer.
No other company has offerered to give you $1500 dollars off a computer just
for owning any of their other products (some of them 15 years old).  No other
company has given you a bus specification that is as much of an advance and
still keeps backward compatibility as ZorroIII.  

Heck, I don't see IBM PC (original PC) owners complaining that 16 bit SVGA
cards don't work in their 8 bit slots (Every SVGA card that i
know of is 16 bit) do you?  I don't see ISA owners complaining that they can't
upgrade their machines to local bus graphics cards that run so much faster.
Do you?  I don't see ISA owners complaining that they can't put EISA cards in
their ISA machines.  Do you?  Commodore has done more than anyone else.

Quote:> 3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.

funny, i don't see any other computer manufacturer shipping CD-Roms in every
system they produce... what a stupid idea..

Quote:> 4) STOP ALIENIATING THIRD PARTY SUPPORT...
>    A sale by them means a sale of another Amiga...
>    How long will it take before an Amiga 4000 Video Toaster is
>    produced? Helping out third party vendors helps your sales.

NewTek DELIBERATELY made the toaster against specifications.  I'm sure they
had a 3000 long before the toaster even shipped, they certainly knew the specs
years before the toaster shipped.

What is commodore supposed to do?  say "Oh, you ignored us, even though we
told you repeatedly not to do this... so we'll encourage you to disregard us
again by just changing OUR designs.. "  That makes *MUCH* more sense.. change
the computer when the periphial is cheaper.

Quote:> 5) ADVERTISE! Atari is spending $60 million dollars to roll out
>    the Falcon. (Source San Jose Mercury News) The new sci-fi
>    series Babylon 5 seems a good place to start.

Umm.. perhaps you haven't seen the recent spreads in InfoWorld, Byte, and many
other major publications... Television advertising just isn't cost effective,
especially in this day and age where people are working more hours, and have
less free time to watch tv with.

Quote:> 6) A4000 needs immediate work before market release. Sure it has
>    great new graphics, but where is the improved sound? You can't
>    tout it as a multimedia machine if you are using yesteryear's
>    technology.

Why not?  It's a multi-media machine.  It beats Microsofts idea of
multi-media.  I see no connection between age of technology, and how usefull
it is in multi-media.

Quote:>Author's note:
>                     If this post sounds like something you
>                     might have read here, you are probably
>                     right. Most of the above came from people
>                     that post here frequently, some die-hard
>                     Amiga *s. If you aren't going to treat
>                     us right, then we will go elsewhere.
>                     And your sales will suffer from our loss.

Translation of above message:
                           If this post sounds like something you
                           might have read here, you are probably
                           right.  I'm a whiner just like everyone
                           else.  I want commodore to go broke by
                           selling us technology that nobody else
                           can for a rediculous price.  Most of the
                           above came from people that post their
                           rediculous opinions of what the computer
                           industry needs, frequently, some die-hard
                           Amiga *s that can't see how inferior
                           the competitions technology really is.  If
                           we can't get our way with you, then we'll
                           look for some other sucker to dump on.
                           And your sales will probably not be affected.

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
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COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Alan Braggi » Mon, 28 Sep 1992 03:36:10




>> HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...

>> My opinions for what they are worth...

>> 1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
>>    Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.

I hadn't noticed announcements Atari were dropping support of their
 existing machines...

Quote:> Interesting notion.  Should we just stop selling A500's and A600's
> in favor of a model with an '030 that retails for $100-$200 more
> as our low end.  Does that make sense or should we both provide a
> higher performance model and keep the low end units until such time
> as the marketplace tells us that 16-bits doesn't sell at any price-point?

Since the C64 is still selling, I guess that point is a long way off.

Whether an A600 with AGA chips is worthwhile would depend on the pricing,
but would appear to be nice for a games machine competing with cheap VGA
clones. The important things is that this shouldn't hold up features
that do require more powerful machines (e.g. virtual memory).

Quote:>>  3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.
> A good idea.  SCSI CD-ROM should work with any of them, given that
> someone comes up with a SCSI PCMCIA card for the A600.  CDTV is a
> more diffcult issue.

I bought a 2000 rather than a 1500 because of the greater expandibility
(and because A3000s were seriously overpriced in the UK, and even finding
someone who sold one/knew about it was hard). A CDTV drive is available for
the A500, but not the A2000.
--
Alan Braggins, Shape Data (A Division of EDS Ltd), Cambridge, UK +44-223-316673
   "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
 "My employer does not necessarily share my views - but I'm working on it."
 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Michael van El » Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:37:08



Quote:>YES! *y hell, Y-E-S!!!! Don't stop selling the A600, but put at LEAST a
>68020 into it. And stop selling that stupid no-hard-drive option. Computers just
>don't COST $400 anymore.

I'm not sure if that isn't actually the case. C= might sell A600s without
HD to the dealers but since I see lots of A600s sold with quite different
HDs (ranging from 30MB to 80MB) I think that dealers just add their own
drive so the HD-less A600 is still a good option.

Regards,
--
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve

                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Stig Arne Ols » Tue, 29 Sep 1992 01:01:39




> > 2) MAINTAIN YOUR USER-BASE. OFFER UPGRADE PATHS to the new high-end
> >    machines. If you alienate your user base, new software products
> >    will become scarcer. There will be no repeat sales to previous
> >    Amiga owners as they migrate to other platforms due to the
> >    lack of software necessary to get the job done. HAVEN'T YOU HEARD
> >    THE MAXIM THAT GOES:

> >                     SATISFY THE CUSTOMER!

> Haven't we been fairly consistant about offering various upgrade paths
> in the past?  Typically these have been in the form of incentive
> discounts, but they seem fairly popular at the time, eh?

I wonder, is these upgrade paths only available in the US? When I bought
my A500 (it's got a serial # ~2200 from germany so I think
I was of the first) I sent in a registration card. I got no offer to
upgrade to Kick1.3. I've yet to see a upgrade offer to any product
from the company.

So is this just C= Norway then? Just how much is C= International
involved in the companies in each country?

--

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Frank R. Dana J » Tue, 29 Sep 1992 07:51:10



|> >HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...
|>
|> huh?  wha?  did you say something?

Do you work for Commodore?

|> >My opinions for what they are worth...
|>
|> I think you should pay US for reading them...

Then you should DOUBLE the ante for your reply...

|> >1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
|> >   Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.
|>
|> Both the Atari and Apple *NEED* 030 based machines to do the job a 68000 or
|> 020 based Amiga could do.  Since their graphics systems suck so much CPU time,
|> they need higher powered CPU's just to be usable.  In apples case, you need an
|> 030 just to make their OS usable.

That's bullsh*t. It's absolutely no justification for running the greatest
multimedia computer in the world at sub-light speeds when it could be running
at warp factor 9!

How much more expensive **IS** a 68020? I'd bet the chip itself is under $100
now, and I'd be SHOCKED if it's over $200. So, for the extra $100, we could
have a 68020-based Amiga. It's worth it, believe me!

|> Commodore does more for their customers than ANY OTHER computer manufacturer.
|> No other company has offerered to give you $1500 dollars off a computer just
|> for owning any of their other products (some of them 15 years old).  No other
|> company has given you a bus specification that is as much of an advance and
|> still keeps backward compatibility as ZorroIII.  

I've never had a problem with Commodore's upgrade path. I agree that it's better
than any other computer manufacturer out there. I'D rather be satisfied in
terms of what Commodore is doing FOR THE FUTURE, not what they're doing FOR
THE PAST. So far, no dice.

|> > 3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.
|>
|> funny, i don't see any other computer manufacturer shipping CD-Roms in every
|> system they produce... what a stupid idea..

You are dense, aren't you? He said SOLUTIONS, as in, optional equipment. Of
course nobody ships CD-ROMs with each of their computers - but they're available
for each and every model! Not on the Amiga... at least, not without a major
headache...

|> NewTek DELIBERATELY made the toaster against specifications.  I'm sure they
|> had a 3000 long before the toaster even shipped, they certainly knew the specs
|> years before the toaster shipped.

Oh, come on! Bet you think the breakup of the Soviet Union is just another
Commie plot, too. I just lost what little respect I had for you.

|> > 5) ADVERTISE! Atari is spending $60 million dollars to roll out
|> >    the Falcon. (Source San Jose Mercury News) The new sci-fi
|> >    series Babylon 5 seems a good place to start.
|>
|> Umm.. perhaps you haven't seen the recent spreads in InfoWorld, Byte, and many
|> other major publications... Television advertising just isn't cost effective,
|> especially in this day and age where people are working more hours, and have
|> less free time to watch tv with.

Great! Wonderful! Altho I think it's real stupid to put Amiga ads in AmigaWorld,
where 90+% of the readers own the friggin' thing, and the mag itself can be
considered one big Amiga ad...

How about getting CDTV ads into things like Time and NewsWeek? Magazines that
NON-computer people read? THAT's who Commodore should be trying to sell Amigas
and CDTVs to; not the people who already own them!

As for TV advertising, it can be VERY cost-effective if used strategically. The
idea about getting Amiga ads into Babylon 5 commercial breaks is a stroke of
genius, and should be pounced upon immediately by Commodore marketing. If
scripted correctly, to point out the fact that the Amiga is responsible for all
of the computer-generated graphics in the show, a couple of 15-second spots can
turn the entire SHOW into an Amiga commercial!

Hell, if Commodore had any REAL brains, they'd get themselves listed as the
sponsors of the show, and guarantee a prominent spot right after the opening
credits play...

(no offense, C= guys....)

|> > 6) A4000 needs immediate work before market release. Sure it has
|> >    great new graphics, but where is the improved sound? You can't
|> >    tout it as a multimedia machine if you are using yesteryear's
|> >    technology.
|>
|> Why not?  It's a multi-media machine.  It beats Microsofts idea of
|> multi-media.  I see no connection between age of technology, and how usefull
|> it is in multi-media.

The implication being that "yesteryear's technology" is inferior to present
technology, which it is.

|> .--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
|> | UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | "I know he's come back |


|> |-------------------------------------------------| moved back in?"        |
|> | Amiga programmer at large, employment options   | Lou Diamond Philips in |
|> | welcome, inquire within.                        | "The First Power".     |
|> `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

No wonder you're out of work, with an attitude like that!

(I can't BELIEVE I just typed that... sorry! It's just that people who defend
Commodore in everything they do really drive me crazy. Someone called you guys
the "Anti-Barretts"... and it fits!  (Mark Barrett, not Dave...)

--
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======    
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
           living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by r.. » Wed, 30 Sep 1992 00:54:22




> : HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...
> :
> : My opinions for what they are worth...
> :
> : 1) Minimum CPU in any of your systems ... 68030. If a company like
> :    Atari can follow Apple's lead, then so should you.

> Atari followed Apple quite well - Apple offered a 16 bit system with
> 32 bit CPU and Atari cripples it's system by only having a single bus
> for both graphics and programs - in any case the system crawls...

This really is the worst thing atari could have done, there should have been a
fast ram type system so the processor could get on with whatever while the ST
RAM was being chewed up by the display.  Incidentally this is also the worst
design feature of the archimedes, however on the low end machine this is
minimised by the fact that the ARM2 only needs 8Mhz to get its 4.5 MIPS.  On
the ARM3 machines I beleive the built in cache helps with the bus contention
issue.  Any real figures on how much the falcon is affected for each display
mode?

> --
> Jarkko Lindblad


Russell.
 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Gregory R Blo » Tue, 29 Sep 1992 16:58:23



: How much more expensive **IS** a 68020? I'd bet the chip itself is under $100
: now, and I'd be SHOCKED if it's over $200. So, for the extra $100, we could
: have a 68020-based Amiga. It's worth it, believe me!

If a 68020 is $100 in mass quantity, then it's >20x more expensive
than a 68000.  See the point?

: Oh, come on! Bet you think the breakup of the Soviet Union is just another
: Commie plot, too. I just lost what little respect I had for you.

You just don't seem to get it, do you?  NewTek went against printed
specifications that existed before the first Zorro II system was even
released.  Now, if you can't understand that, you need to go and buy
the Hardware Reference Manual, a ruler, and a Toaster.  Some of us
already know what you'll find:  You'll find Newtek is wrong.

The responsibility for this falls upon NewTek, who should have, and
probably did know well in advance that they were violating
specifications.  The 2000 gives a fair amount of more room than that
specification:  It's C='s right to give you more room than you need.
It's also their right to take that space away, as long as they leave
room for the specified size to fit, and I assure you, that specified
size fits in all Zorro II compatible machines.

: The implication being that "yesteryear's technology" is inferior to present
: technology, which it is.

AGA isn't yesteryears technology, and it's just about the fastest
graphics system available, in terms of capabilities within the range
of personal computing.

Greg

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(:      "Yeah, if improving the system is screwing the user base,     :)
(:       you all need to be screwed more often." -Dave Haynie            :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Erik Funkenbus » Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:25:30





>|> >HEY COMMODORE, PAY ATTENTION ...
>|>
>|> huh?  wha?  did you say something?

>Do you work for Commodore?

No, i was just pointing out that who is he to try to make ANYONE pay attention
with these sorts of demands.

Quote:>|> Both the Atari and Apple *NEED* 030 based machines to do the job a 68000 or
>|> 020 based Amiga could do.  Since their graphics systems suck so much CPU time,
>|> they need higher powered CPU's just to be usable.  In apples case, you need an
>|> 030 just to make their OS usable.

>That's bullsh*t. It's absolutely no justification for running the greatest
>multimedia computer in the world at sub-light speeds when it could be running
>at warp factor 9!

>How much more expensive **IS** a 68020? I'd bet the chip itself is under $100
>now, and I'd be SHOCKED if it's over $200. So, for the extra $100, we could
>have a 68020-based Amiga. It's worth it, believe me!

That's $100 dollars manufacturing cost, which translates easily to a $200-300
dollar street cost added.  You expect commodore to make machines for no
profit?  That's stupid.  The justification is that if a machine is usable at
7Mhz, why put more cost into it if you don't need it.

Quote:>I've never had a problem with Commodore's upgrade path. I agree that it's better
>than any other computer manufacturer out there. I'D rather be satisfied in
>terms of what Commodore is doing FOR THE FUTURE, not what they're doing FOR
>THE PAST. So far, no dice.

No dice?  You mean an expandable CPU module is no dice?  Hell, if need be
commodore could put a daughterboard onto the cpu module to put AAGA chip into
the thing...

Quote:

>|> > 3) CD-ROM or a CDTV SOLUTION for all your products.
>|>
>|> funny, i don't see any other computer manufacturer shipping CD-Roms in every
>|> system they produce... what a stupid idea..

>You are dense, aren't you? He said SOLUTIONS, as in, optional equipment. Of
>course nobody ships CD-ROMs with each of their computers - but they're available
>for each and every model! Not on the Amiga... at least, not without a major
>headache...

Funny, i can hook a CD-Rom up to *ANY* Amiga for exactly the same cost as an
IBM, maybe even cheaper.  Since most IBM's don't have SCSI you would have to
buy a SCSI card for either case.  You can use virtually any Mac or PC CD-Rom
drive with their standard and Amiga formats.  All you need is the $49 dollar
CD-Rom File System.  No problem.  Any Amiga.

Quote:

>|> NewTek DELIBERATELY made the toaster against specifications.  I'm sure they
>|> had a 3000 long before the toaster even shipped, they certainly knew the specs
>|> years before the toaster shipped.

>Oh, come on! Bet you think the breakup of the Soviet Union is just another
>Commie plot, too. I just lost what little respect I had for you.

Excuse me?  NewTek screws up and expects C= to fix it for them?  I don't
understand.  Look at any 1987 2000 Technical manual.  It shows the specs for
the video card form factor.  NewTek chose to ignore them.  Specifically the
toaster was designed to fit in a 2000 chassis, nothing else.

Quote:>Great! Wonderful! Altho I think it's real stupid to put Amiga ads in AmigaWorld,
>where 90+% of the readers own the friggin' thing, and the mag itself can be
>considered one big Amiga ad...

>How about getting CDTV ads into things like Time and NewsWeek? Magazines that
>NON-computer people read? THAT's who Commodore should be trying to sell Amigas
>and CDTVs to; not the people who already own them!

umm.. advertising in AmigaWorld you might note is for more advanced systems.
The idea is to make the lower end know of the exhistance, (and special deals)
going on with the higher end.  This isn't preaching to the choir, since most
amiga owners are 500 owners, thus an ad for a 3000 hits a good market.

btw, CBM *DOES* advertise CDTV in non-technical magazines.  Heck, the last
ones have been great!  

Quote:>|> Why not?  It's a multi-media machine.  It beats Microsofts idea of
>|> multi-media.  I see no connection between age of technology, and how usefull
>|> it is in multi-media.

>The implication being that "yesteryear's technology" is inferior to present
>technology, which it is.

That's not the implication.  He said "How can you advertise that the Amiga is
multi-media machine when it has yesteryears technology".  my point was age of
technology has NOTHING to do with how usefull it is for a pourpose.   Monitors
 are *VERY* old technology, yet they are still useful are they not? .

>|> .--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
>|> | UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | "I know he's come back |


>|> |-------------------------------------------------| moved back in?"        |
>|> | Amiga programmer at large, employment options   | Lou Diamond Philips in |
>|> | welcome, inquire within.                        | "The First Power".     |
>|> `--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

>No wonder you're out of work, with an attitude like that!

>(I can't BELIEVE I just typed that... sorry! It's just that people who defend
>Commodore in everything they do really drive me crazy. Someone called you guys
>the "Anti-Barretts"... and it fits!  (Mark Barrett, not Dave...)

Who says i'm unemployed?  I'm always looking for a better job.

Just because i don't see everything commodore does as the end of the world as
we know it, doesn't mean that i'm for everything they do.  I find 90% of the
*es and moans going on in here idiotical.  There are reasons C= does what
it does, and they are *USUALLY* good reasons.  For instance, SMD chipsets
reduce capacitance on the system, this is good, not bad.  You have to live
with some disadvantages to most advantages.  For instance, the SCSI setup in
the 3000 is VERY GOOD, but it's also VERY expensive.  every good point has a
bad point.

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| UUCP: {amdahl!tcnet, crash}!orbit!pnet51!chucks | "I know he's come back |


|-------------------------------------------------| moved back in?"        |
| Amiga programmer at large, employment options   | Lou Diamond Philips in |
| welcome, inquire within.                        | "The First Power".     |
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------'

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by David Meiklejo » Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:51:47



>That's bullsh*t. It's absolutely no justification for running the greatest
>multimedia computer in the world at sub-light speeds when it could be running
>at warp factor 9!

This whole multimedia thing's getting out of hand - it's just a marketing term
invented by Apple that no one can agree what it means, exactly.  Some people
think it means being able to watch video in a window, in which case adding a
68020 to the low-end Amigas won't help them.  Others (namely Microsoft) seem
to assume that to "do" multimedia, you need a CD-ROM.  Why don't we forget the
hype and just think about what what the average home user wants to do with
his cheap A600?  Do low end users want to do what you call "multimedia", or
would they rather play games and do some word processing, and maybe some home
video titling or whatever?

If you want to run the world's greatest multimedia computer at warp 9, you
get an A4000.  They come with an '040, and they're cheap.

Quote:>How much more expensive **IS** a 68020? I'd bet the chip itself is under $100
>now, and I'd be SHOCKED if it's over $200.

Doubtless a lot cheaper than that.  However, the cost of the chip isn't that
important for cheap chips - more relevant is that going with an '020 or '030
means having a 32-bit bus.  Not only do you need more traces on the
motherboard and a more complex layout, but you have to go to 32-bit ram,
which means that you need more chips to do it.  Of course, Commodore _could_,
using the bus sizing ability of the '030, keep a 16-bit bus and save money
on the motherboard that way.  Then they could advertise that their bottom
line was 32-bit, but it would be crippled, and what sort of computer company
would come up with a design like that?  ;-)

Quote:>So, for the extra $100, we could
>have a 68020-based Amiga. It's worth it, believe me!

At the bottom end of the market, $100 is a HUGE difference.  You're talking
about a 20% markup or more.

I agree that, to round out the Amiga market, we need a mid-range model
with an '020 or 30 (I say forget the '020, myself), with AGA, selling for
under $1500 or so.  Such a machine would replace the A2000, and I believe
that Commodore will be introducing one shortly.

What I strongly disagree with you about is that the low end needs to be
raised.  Augment the range, don't contract it.  Let the market decide what
they want to buy.

Quote:>I've never had a problem with Commodore's upgrade path. I agree that it's better
>than any other computer manufacturer out there. I'D rather be satisfied in
>terms of what Commodore is doing FOR THE FUTURE, not what they're doing FOR
>THE PAST. So far, no dice.

Umm, how long has it been since the A4000 was released?  A couple of weeks.
You were happy with the power-ups in the past, but how long was it after the
A3000 was introduced that the first power-up scheme was launched?  Months.

Quote:>How about getting CDTV ads into things like Time and NewsWeek? Magazines that
>NON-computer people read? THAT's who Commodore should be trying to sell Amigas
>and CDTVs to; not the people who already own them!

For CDTV, you may be right.  However, most people who buy computers these
days already own them.  No one has been able to figure out yet how to convince
the masses who don't yet have a computer in the home that they really do need
one.  And I suspect that most buyers of CD-I, CDTV, etc. at this point are
computer-literate techno-junkies.

Quote:>(I can't BELIEVE I just typed that... sorry! It's just that people who defend
>Commodore in everything they do really drive me crazy. Someone called you guys
>the "Anti-Barretts"... and it fits!  (Mark Barrett, not Dave...)

Get it right, will ya?  That's "Marc" and "Dan".

--

 - Regional support guy for PC's, Unix, and networks thereof.
 - But I'd rather be using an AMIGA!  Wouldn't you?
Find me in Mareeba, Australia (on the pointy bit in the northeast),

 
 
 

COMMODORE - HERE'S A CLUE

Post by Frank R. Dana J » Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:25:02




|> : How much more expensive **IS** a 68020? I'd bet the chip itself is under $100
|> : now, and I'd be SHOCKED if it's over $200. So, for the extra $100, we could
|> : have a 68020-based Amiga. It's worth it, believe me!
|>
|> If a 68020 is $100 in mass quantity, then it's >20x more expensive
|> than a 68000.  See the point?

Ratios are just plain stupid in most applications. It's STILL cheap, and as a
portion of the entire computer's cost it is inconsequential. You wanna play
number games? OK.. If a 68000 A500 costs $400, and a 68020-based A500 would cost
$500, ISN'T it 125% better????? I'd say it's more than TWICE as good!

|> : Oh, come on! Bet you think the breakup of the Soviet Union is just another
|> : Commie plot, too. I just lost what little respect I had for you.
|>
|> You just don't seem to get it, do you?  NewTek went against printed
|> specifications that existed before the first Zorro II system was even
|> released.  Now, if you can't understand that, you need to go and buy
|> the Hardware Reference Manual, a ruler, and a Toaster.  Some of us
|> already know what you'll find:  You'll find Newtek is wrong.

I NEVER said NewTek was right. I agree, they broke the rules and paid for it.
But the idea that they HAD the A3000 and DELIBERATELY (or just out of sheer
laziness...) didn't build the toaster to fit is paraniod delusion.

|> : The implication being that "yesteryear's technology" is inferior to present
|> : technology, which it is.
|>
|> AGA isn't yesteryears technology, and it's just about the fastest
|> graphics system available, in terms of capabilities within the range
|> of personal computing.

We were talking about the 1985 Paula chip... definitely yesteryear's technology.

|> Greg

--
/////////////////////////[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
(718)             (212)                        (516)             (518)
=======Amiuser============Frank R. Dana, Jr.============Doc Ami=======    
--------My opinions rarely reflect those of any sane person,----------
           living, dead, or undead... that's gonna CHANGE.

 
 
 

1. Commodore, here's a clue

Why doesn't Commodore release an Amiga 3500?

Basically, my idea of it is it having the new AGA chip set along with all of
the custom chips in the 3000 excluding Agnus & Denise and without a built in
C.P.U.

There are several reasons for my view of this:

1) If the whole bus is gonna be 32-bit, why not make the hard drive device
   32-bits also? (i.e., SCSI) Why not? I sure as heck don't want to buy a computer then have to buy a SCSI board PLUS the amount of data the Hard drive can
transfer will be twice as much. (I'd like to quote Tim Taylor {Home Improvement}  "We want a man's machine. We want more power! {grunt})

2) How about putting Amber in an AGA machine? Sure we can create non-interlaced
   screens, but that means I can't use the ones that are interlaced. I shouldn't
   be limited to certain screens because others have a flicker. If I got these
extra modes, I want to be able to use them, not watch an annoying flicker!

3) Take what chip the C.P.U. is off the front panel. When i'm still using my
   machine 5 years from now, it'll more than likely have a more advanced
   C.P.U., and not the 040, 030, or whatever. C'mon guys, you can't make
   anything like that permanent. I'll give Commodore a pont for thinking of
   putting the C.P.U. the way they have it. I like that idea.

These comments, criticsms, & complaints are of my own view.
I encourage comments and reaction, and would like to see some, especially from
Commodore (Oh boy!). However, there's no reason to get nasty about it, though.

Also, (for Commodore) how about releasing UNIX for the new machines so I can
use it here at Virginia Tech?


"If I wanted to listen to an ASSHOLE, I would've farted!"

2. Linux lockups, possibly Samba?

3. Vic Anderson hasn't got a clue!

4. 3c/mx emulator

5. Any clues on when an '040 machine is coming?

6. Q-Tec Update....

7. FS/T: Bard's Tale + clue book

8. Entryfield Border

9. The Register Article : Commodore wannabe don't want to be Commodore no more

10. Commodore's decline: the death of Commodore Magazine

11. Commodore's Demise, A Dealer's Response