AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by NickW » Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:13:33




> > Are both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos POP/CHRP based machines, or is
> > the Pegasos more like the old phase5 Prebox/Abox?

> No, it's not.

So you're saying that both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos are POP based?

How do you know? I've seen sources on the net/usegroups (sorry, no
idea where) that suggest that the Pegasos is a prebox based design...
I don't think they backed it up with much either.

Anyone have any proof either way?

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Ross Vumbac » Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:21:20


Hi,


> So you're saying that both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos are POP based?

> How do you know? I've seen sources on the net/usegroups (sorry, no
> idea where) that suggest that the Pegasos is a prebox based design...
> I don't think they backed it up with much either.

> Anyone have any proof either way?

Wrong. They don't give a shit about your Amigas, they are selling to an
open market, e.g PPC Linux users, and in addition, it can run MorphOS.
The chipset it uses is a MAI Articia S, and and a VIA Southbridge, it
also has a Softex BIOS at the moment - that is exactly the same chips
and BIOS as the AmigaOne (look at the pictures that have been shown).

Regards,

Ross..

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Ralph Schmid » Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:54:59



> Hi,


>> So you're saying that both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos are POP based?

>> How do you know? I've seen sources on the net/usegroups (sorry, no idea
>> where) that suggest that the Pegasos is a prebox based design... I
>> don't think they backed it up with much either.

>> Anyone have any proof either way?

> Wrong. They don't give a shit about your Amigas, they are selling to an
> open market, e.g PPC Linux users, and in addition, it can run MorphOS.
> The chipset it uses is a MAI Articia S, and and a VIA Southbridge, it
> also has a Softex BIOS at the moment - that is exactly the same chips
> and BIOS as the AmigaOne (look at the pictures that have been shown).

Pegasos doesn't use the Softex BIOS which is in no way useable for
a system which should be sold to normal customers. It's not fully
openfirmware compatible, has broken drivers, broken filesystem support
and doesn't even fully comply to the openfirmware specs..not to speak
about its broken forth support.
 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Ross Vumbac » Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:53:33


Hi,


> Pegasos doesn't use the Softex BIOS which is in no way useable for
> a system which should be sold to normal customers. It's not fully
> openfirmware compatible, has broken drivers, broken filesystem support
> and doesn't even fully comply to the openfirmware specs..not to speak
> about its broken forth support.

Yes it's a completely broken firmware, but the screenshots of the
Pegasos have shown it, assumedly it is being used for testing or
development purposes.

Regards,

Ross..

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Eric Haine » Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:46:30


Quote:> > > Are both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos POP/CHRP based machines, or is
> > > the Pegasos more like the old phase5 Prebox/Abox?

> > No, it's not.

> So you're saying that both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos are POP based?

Yes.

Quote:> How do you know? I've seen sources on the net/usegroups (sorry, no
> idea where) that suggest that the Pegasos is a prebox based design...
> I don't think they backed it up with much either.

> Anyone have any proof either way?

There've been photos published of both boards.  Check out the news
sites (ANN etc.) for links.  There's no particular secret here.  No
super-custom hardware, sorry.

--Eric

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Ralph Schmid » Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:59:29



> Hi,

> Yes it's a completely broken firmware, but the screenshots of the
> Pegasos have shown it, assumedly it is being used for testing or
> development purposes.

On the Bordeaux meeting a real openfirmware was shown.
 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by NickW » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:47:17



> Hi,


> > But I doubt that your PC has any synchronicity between the NVidia
> > GeForce 2MX and the Creative EMU101-K etc, and I'm sure that your PCs
> > performance has been compromised because of all the millions of
> > different hardware combinations out there - nothing has been written
> > for your particular hardware setup because everything has been written
> > for the Windows HAL. Nothing wrong with this - it's the result of the
> > PC hardware-is-a-commodity way, and we'd better get used to it,
> > because that's certainly where Amiga Inc will take us.

> It doesn't but that's what happens when your hardware was made by
> different companies. You have to accept that the days of custom chips
> are over. If Commodore were still around, and they were trying to make
> custom sound and graphic chips, it would be a joke, they couldnt compete
> with companies that are specialised at their task, e.g NVidia. The Amiga
> would become like the Mac now - it would use off the shelf parts, it
> would have a PCI bus, and it would be a PPC machine. You can consider
> the AmigaOne (or the bPlan one) as a modern Amiga. Not quite the same,
> but close enough, considering the circumstances.

> The days of in-house custom chips under one roof were nice, but those
> days are over.

<snip>

Fair enough.

I do accept that NVidia et al are likely to be far better at making
graphics chips than anything that a general computer company could
make, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't just standardise on one
of these and have a good graphics chip on board as standard.

Sure, the chip would eventually become outdated, but this solution
would be more efficient than a PC using the same chip because software
would be written directly for it. Faster graphics chips with the same
architecture would be used in future machines to ensure backwards
compatibility. The only problem comes from sticking to the same chip
designer (ie NVidia) and hoping they don't go bust or break backwards
compatibility, but this is what computer designers already do when
thay commit themselves to a processor, so why not graphics/sound? The
latest Intel processor understands 286 instructions fine.

The other extreme of course is to move to a completely virtual
machine, and this is where Java/Amiga DE comes in, but then why bother
buying an AmigaOne/Pegasos in the first place? - a PC will always be
cheaper and better supported (where will the drivers come from for all
of the graphics cards we're going to want to use?) Heck, you could
even use UAE as your VM and add new display modes etc to it for new
software to take advantage of! :D

Nick
I realise I'm rambling a bit, but there's parts of Amiga Incs strategy
that don't seem well thought out at all. A brand new hardware platform
to run a virtual machine? Hmm...

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Bill Silve » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:18:40




> > Hi,


> > > But I doubt that your PC has any synchronicity between the NVidia
> > > GeForce 2MX and the Creative EMU101-K etc, and I'm sure that your PCs
> > > performance has been compromised because of all the millions of
> > > different hardware combinations out there - nothing has been written
> > > for your particular hardware setup because everything has been written
> > > for the Windows HAL. Nothing wrong with this - it's the result of the
> > > PC hardware-is-a-commodity way, and we'd better get used to it,
> > > because that's certainly where Amiga Inc will take us.

> > It doesn't but that's what happens when your hardware was made by
> > different companies. You have to accept that the days of custom chips
> > are over. If Commodore were still around, and they were trying to make
> > custom sound and graphic chips, it would be a joke, they couldnt compete
> > with companies that are specialised at their task, e.g NVidia. The Amiga
> > would become like the Mac now - it would use off the shelf parts, it
> > would have a PCI bus, and it would be a PPC machine. You can consider
> > the AmigaOne (or the bPlan one) as a modern Amiga. Not quite the same,
> > but close enough, considering the circumstances.

> > The days of in-house custom chips under one roof were nice, but those
> > days are over.
> <snip>

> Fair enough.

> I do accept that NVidia et al are likely to be far better at making
> graphics chips than anything that a general computer company could
> make, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't just standardise on one
> of these and have a good graphics chip on board as standard.

That has, to a degree, been done.  There's an nVidia chipset-based
motherboard (or two) available with onboard sound (AC93 compliant), video
(nVidia, obviously), 10/100 network, IDE controllers etc. etc.

A low-profile board like that with no slots or an optional riser to add
perhaps an AGP card or PCI card for later updating would fit quite nicely in
an A1000-like case :-)

--
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
Me: "What you have to understand, dear, is that the internet is a global
community...a village!"
My Wife: "And you're the village idiot, right?"

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by James Boswel » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:45:32


Quote:> That has, to a degree, been done.  There's an nVidia chipset-based
> motherboard (or two) available with onboard sound (AC93 compliant), video
> (nVidia, obviously), 10/100 network, IDE controllers etc. etc.

> A low-profile board like that with no slots or an optional riser to add
> perhaps an AGP card or PCI card for later updating would fit quite nicely in
> an A1000-like case :-)

sounds quite a lot like an Xbox from where I'm sitting :)
(since the Nforce chipset is based on the Xbox chipset, that's hardly a
surprise)
BTW, it's AC'97 audio (and the Nforce/Xbox actually has a DSP onboard that can
ENCODE Dolby 5.1 in realtime...)

-JB

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Ross Vumbac » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:03:27


Hi,

<snip>

Quote:> The other extreme of course is to move to a completely virtual
> machine, and this is where Java/Amiga DE comes in, but then why bother
> buying an AmigaOne/Pegasos in the first place? - a PC will always be
> cheaper and better supported (where will the drivers come from for all
> of the graphics cards we're going to want to use?) Heck, you could
> even use UAE as your VM and add new display modes etc to it for new
> software to take advantage of! :D

The thing is, the AOne was not made for the benefit of AmigaDE, note how
it is out of Amiga Inc hands? The OS is a Hyperion Job, the AmigaOne is
Eyetech - it was done to appease the users. The AmigaDE is a completely
separate and different thing, and will run on your PC if you want it to.

Regards,

Ross..

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Bill Silve » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:09:36



Quote:> > That has, to a degree, been done.  There's an nVidia chipset-based
> > motherboard (or two) available with onboard sound (AC93 compliant),
video
> > (nVidia, obviously), 10/100 network, IDE controllers etc. etc.

> > A low-profile board like that with no slots or an optional riser to add
> > perhaps an AGP card or PCI card for later updating would fit quite
nicely in
> > an A1000-like case :-)

> sounds quite a lot like an Xbox from where I'm sitting :)
> (since the Nforce chipset is based on the Xbox chipset, that's hardly a
> surprise)
> BTW, it's AC'97 audio (and the Nforce/Xbox actually has a DSP onboard that
can
> ENCODE Dolby 5.1 in realtime...)

Ah poop, what did I say?  I said AC93.  My bad.  I was probably thinking
"AC-3" (a home theater 'standard').

I concur; does sound like an XBOX.  But what I'm thinking of would be more
of a complete computer...

--
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
Me: "What you have to understand, dear, is that the internet is a global
community...a village!"
My Wife: "And you're the village idiot, right?"

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by NickW » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:58:52







> > > Hi,


> > > > But I doubt that your PC has any synchronicity between the NVidia
> > > > GeForce 2MX and the Creative EMU101-K etc, and I'm sure that your PCs
> > > > performance has been compromised because of all the millions of
> > > > different hardware combinations out there - nothing has been written
> > > > for your particular hardware setup because everything has been written
> > > > for the Windows HAL. Nothing wrong with this - it's the result of the
> > > > PC hardware-is-a-commodity way, and we'd better get used to it,
> > > > because that's certainly where Amiga Inc will take us.

> > > It doesn't but that's what happens when your hardware was made by
> > > different companies. You have to accept that the days of custom chips
> > > are over. If Commodore were still around, and they were trying to make
> > > custom sound and graphic chips, it would be a joke, they couldnt compete
> > > with companies that are specialised at their task, e.g NVidia. The Amiga
> > > would become like the Mac now - it would use off the shelf parts, it
> > > would have a PCI bus, and it would be a PPC machine. You can consider
> > > the AmigaOne (or the bPlan one) as a modern Amiga. Not quite the same,
> > > but close enough, considering the circumstances.

> > > The days of in-house custom chips under one roof were nice, but those
> > > days are over.
> > <snip>

> > Fair enough.

> > I do accept that NVidia et al are likely to be far better at making
> > graphics chips than anything that a general computer company could
> > make, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't just standardise on one
> > of these and have a good graphics chip on board as standard.

> That has, to a degree, been done.  There's an nVidia chipset-based
> motherboard (or two) available with onboard sound (AC93 compliant), video
> (nVidia, obviously), 10/100 network, IDE controllers etc. etc.

You're talking about one of these cheap everything-on-board PCs right?
I had a PPC board in mind with possibly a custom bus but standard
chips and native software.

It seems to me that the market for such a thing exists. There's quite
a few disgruntled Amiga people out there who are frankly pissed off
with what Amiga Inc are doing with their virtual PDA stuff. I guess
this is who bplan's targeting, and this is why I was originally
hopeful about a Caipirinha (or any well designed hardware) on future
Pegasos boards. (Is bplan phase5s Plan B?)

- Show quoted text -

Quote:> A low-profile board like that with no slots or an optional riser to add
> perhaps an AGP card or PCI card for later updating would fit quite nicely in
> an A1000-like case :-)

 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by NickW » Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:38:13



> > That has, to a degree, been done.  There's an nVidia chipset-based
> > motherboard (or two) available with onboard sound (AC93 compliant), video
> > (nVidia, obviously), 10/100 network, IDE controllers etc. etc.

> > A low-profile board like that with no slots or an optional riser to add
> > perhaps an AGP card or PCI card for later updating would fit quite nicely in
> > an A1000-like case :-)

> sounds quite a lot like an Xbox from where I'm sitting :)
> (since the Nforce chipset is based on the Xbox chipset, that's hardly a
> surprise)
> BTW, it's AC'97 audio (and the Nforce/Xbox actually has a DSP onboard that can
> ENCODE Dolby 5.1 in realtime...)

> -JB

Well, the Amiga was originally designed aa a console...
 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by Mark Stewar » Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:58:54



> Hi,


> <snip>
> > The other extreme of course is to move to a completely virtual
> > machine, and this is where Java/Amiga DE comes in, but then why bother
> > buying an AmigaOne/Pegasos in the first place? - a PC will always be
> > cheaper and better supported (where will the drivers come from for all
> > of the graphics cards we're going to want to use?) Heck, you could
> > even use UAE as your VM and add new display modes etc to it for new
> > software to take advantage of! :D

> The thing is, the AOne was not made for the benefit of AmigaDE, note how
> it is out of Amiga Inc hands? The OS is a Hyperion Job, the AmigaOne is
> Eyetech - it was done to appease the users. The AmigaDE is a completely
> separate and different thing, and will run on your PC if you want it to.

> Regards,

> Ross..

   How is Amiga DE coming. News of it is extremely scarce. I was
thinking that it might be dying. The concept is great but I see
other companies working on similar products. With Amiga's
track record it looks like they might lose the race.
 
 
 

AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)

Post by James Boswel » Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:19:09


Quote:> I concur; does sound like an XBOX.  But what I'm thinking of would be more
> of a complete computer...

architecturally, the Xbox _is_ a complete computer...

I'll put it this way, was, or was not, the CD32 an A1200 with a cdrom drive in
a different box and no keyboard.

it was "technically" the guts of an A1200 with a few tweaks, and that's
exactly what the Xbox is, a PC with a few tweaks (and a totally fixed platform
so less abstraction is needed)

-JB

 
 
 

1. AmigaOne vs Pegasos (POP vs Prebox / Abox?)


Thats not really true unless the gfx chipset is the only hardware
variable.  

For example, a CS-PPC may be able to calculate 3D geometry at
well over 100 fps (Hyperion's figures for HereticII, I think it
was), but a gfx card on the CS-PPC expansion bus might be limited
to 80MB/s bandwidth or so.  A gfx card on the Z3 bus would be
limited to 25MB/s thorughput, and a Z2 gfx card will top out at
about 3MB/s.  Install all three gfx cards in the same machine and
the same 3D geometry sent to each will have different maximum
fps's.  IOWs, the max-fps is simply clipped at a different point
using each card, not proportionally slower.

The proper analogy is:

What would you rather drive?  A very powerful BMW that's
electronically limited (clipped) at 120mph, or a 1.5L Honda Civic
that is permitted to eventualy top out at 125mph?
--

-Steve

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