Ed Goff may be write?

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Tony Lisan » Wed, 12 Jul 1995 04:00:00




Quote:>     Trust the market. AmiTek very probably will sell every last one of
> the initial run of new Amiga' at $3.5K. They wont sell the second run
> at that price, and may have no intention of doing so. Isn't is a better
> Idea to work down from the top than try to work up from the bottom.

>     If anything is going to convence AmiTek/Escom that the Amiga is worth
> pushing in N.A.F.T.A, isn't it nice big fat profits, and the cash flowing
> in.

 And every one will probably be toaster related! 3,500$ is a steep prices even
for diehard users..
 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Kevin Paul Kubi » Thu, 13 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Quote:> Trust the market. AmiTek very probably will sell every last one of
> the initial run of new Amiga' at $3.5K. They wont sell the second run
> at that price, and may have no intention of doing so. Isn't is a better
> Idea to work down from the top than try to work up from the bottom.

>     If anything is going to convence AmiTek/Escom that the Amiga is worth
> pushing in N.A.F.T.A, isn't it nice big fat profits, and the cash flowing
> in.

Yes, but if they sell the first batch at that price there will be no more users to sell the next batch to.

They need to build up new users , not get rid of current ones.

Kk...
--

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Big-Kahun » Thu, 13 Jul 1995 04:00:00



: Yes, but if they sell the first batch at that price there will be no more users to sell the next batch to.

: They need to build up new users , not get rid of current ones.

I haven't purchased an amiga in 4 years, yet I consider myself an
Amigan. I can wait for the second batch, as my trusty A2000HD is
still serving me well. I will purchase a new amiga when I see the
price is right (Whatever that price is). Give AmiTech a chance! If
I bought C= for $12,000,000, why would I re-start production, spend
money on new management, spend money on research, and then sell
only 10000 machines and quit?

They can make the Amiga expensive, but they can't ever take the Amiga
out of me! I will always be an Amigan.

--

     _/_/_/  _/                  _/           Chris "Big Kahuna" Rampson

 _/        _/    _/  _/_/      _/  _/_/       NO cutdowns, flames, meaness
_/        _/    _/  _/        _/      _/_/    ONLY info. as I interpret it
 _/_/_/  _/    _/  _/        _/  _/_/_/  "NOT an OFFICIAL FORD spokesperson"

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by nyle land » Fri, 14 Jul 1995 04:00:00



: : Yes, but if they sell the first batch at that price there will be no more users to sell the next batch to.

: : They need to build up new users , not get rid of current ones.

: I haven't purchased an amiga in 4 years, yet I consider myself an
: Amigan. I can wait for the second batch, as my trusty A2000HD is
: still serving me well. I will purchase a new amiga when I see the
: price is right (Whatever that price is). Give AmiTech a chance! If
: I bought C= for $12,000,000, why would I re-start production, spend
: money on new management, spend money on research, and then sell
: only 10000 machines and quit?

Let's see $3,499 * 10000 = 34,990,000 right minus expenses looks like they
just made up the $12 mil expenditure and can dump the Amiga for good. Either
that or make Mac clones and port tthe AmigaOS to them.

: They can make the Amiga expensive, but they can't ever take the Amiga
: out of me! I will always be an Amigan.

I used to think the same.  Now I don't know.  If I start to hate ESCOM as
much as Apple I doubt I'll ever buy another Amiga.

-Nyle

--
/*******************************************************************\
|Nyle F. Landas                                                      |

|URL    - http://www.servtech.com/public/ami4000/                    |
|FTP    - ftp://ftp.servtech.com/pub/users/ami4000/                  |
|                                                                    |
| Build a better mouse trap and Bill Gates will steal all the cheese.|
\********************************************************************/

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Jyrki Saarine » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Quote:> Let's see $3,499 * 10000 = 34,990,000 right minus expenses looks like
> they just made up the $12 mil expenditure and can dump the Amiga for good.

Obviously you have not read the Escom press conference and their
commitment for the Amiga.
 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by nyle land » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00


: > Let's see $3,499 * 10000 = 34,990,000 right minus expenses looks like
: > they just made up the $12 mil expenditure and can dump the Amiga for good.

: Obviously you have not read the Escom press conference and their
: commitment for the Amiga.

Read it.  But words are words.  Amiga users have been lied to 1000 too many
times.  I'm not saying ESCOM/AT are liars but I'll believe it when I see it
is the attitude I've now adopted.  I used to go around with rose colored
glasses - now it's magnifying glasses.

-Nyle

--
/*******************************************************************\
|Nyle F. Landas                                                      |

|URL    - http://www.servtech.com/public/ami4000/                    |
|FTP    - ftp://ftp.servtech.com/pub/users/ami4000/                  |
|                                                                    |
| Build a better mouse trap and Bill Gates will steal all the cheese.|
\********************************************************************/

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Mike Noree » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Thusly J. Poag spake unto All:

 JP> Riiiiiiight. A total of like >10< A4000T's will be sold at $3499, because
 JP> for the price of one A4000T, they can pick up >two< P100's and set up a
 JP> lovely render farm that will blow a 4000T out of the water in rendering
 JP> speeds. Like any fool is going to lay down $3500 on a box they know is

You should realize that corporations are virtually cost insensitive
when it comes to equipment. If you've invested $50,000 in a system
of networked Amigas with single frame recording video and TBC and
the software to go with it - you're not going to start replacing
the whole system just because the price of one unit rose. You swear,
you curse - and you buy. Or let's assume you do, say, 3D logos for
TV programmes. Each completed assignment is worth $5000 for your
company. You have a working Amiga setup, you have the software
and you have people trained at using it - are you really going to
get new software and retrain the personnel if you need to expand?
Especially considering that the software alone for that cheap new
PC might cost more than a whole new AmiTech priced Amiga.

For the small one man company and for the hobbyist $3500 is rediculously
much. For a company which has already invested in this technique, or
for which no suitable software exists on other platforms - it's peanuts.
Hell, let's not forget that Unis bought Macs which cost TWICE that
just a year or two ago.

One thing which might make a company think about changing to another
platform despite heavy investments would be if they thought that they
would not be able to expand by buying new ones, and if spares were
in short supply. I guess that is exactly the reason Escom tries to
get a few A4000s out the door even though they'll have to sell them
at this incredible price.

So, will these built-to-order A4000Ts sell? Yes, AmiTech will sell some.
Will they sell 10,000? I seriously doubt it, and it doesn't really matter.
What matters is that the serious customers CAN get new Amigas if they
need to. A few $1000 here or there is less important - just the cost
of having to retrain the operators is much much more than that.

These Amigas aren't for mere mortals, people. That's what the pricetag
is trying to tell you.


MVH: Mike Noreen

     Fido:  2:201/411.14

___ Terminate 1.50/Pro

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Kevin Paul Kubi » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Quote:>: They need to build up new users , not get rid of current ones.

>I haven't purchased an amiga in 4 years, yet I consider myself an
>Amigan. I can wait for the second batch, as my trusty A2000HD is
>still serving me well. I will purchase a new amiga when I see the
>price is right (Whatever that price is). Give AmiTech a chance! If
>I bought C= for $12,000,000, why would I re-start production, spend
>money on new management, spend money on research, and then sell
>only 10000 machines and quit?

>They can make the Amiga expensive, but they can't ever take the Amiga
>out of me! I will always be an Amigan.

Well, if they sold those 22,000 (10,000 in US 12,000 in europe.) they would
pull in $90 million. (I don't know how much it is going to cost to produce them.)

So they would definately get back their 12 million, plus much more.

I wish every amiga owner was like you, but many will just switch over once this price is officially on the market.

I plan on just waiting, since I won't need another computer for a while.

Kk..
--

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Matthias Neerach » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00



> Thusly J. Poag spake unto All:

JP> Riiiiiiight. A total of like >10< A4000T's will be sold at $3499, because
JP> for the price of one A4000T, they can pick up >two< P100's and set up a
JP> lovely render farm that will blow a 4000T out of the water in rendering
JP> speeds. Like any fool is going to lay down $3500 on a box they know is

Quote:> You should realize that corporations are virtually cost insensitive
> when it comes to equipment.

True, but corporations are very much "viability sensitive". After the one year
hiatus, and the takeover which was, as Escom publicly stated, not primarily
motivated by the Amiga, the first actions of the new owners are important, as
they hint at which strategy Escom pursues for the Amiga:

 a) Capitalizing on the strengths of the platforms, move as quickly as possible
    to a faster hardware platform, and, while this move is underway, maintain
    the existing market share with competitive prices.
 b) Recoup some of the acquisition cost by turning a fast buck selling
    overpriced systems to the customers locked into the Amiga. Don't spend
    much on hardware and software development beyond making 68060 Amigas and
    keep producing small series of Amigas until the user base has rotted away.

Now, while the *rhetorics* of AmiTech have suggested strategy a), their actual
*actions* suggest that Escom is in fact planning on b). If this suspicion is
confirmed by future actions, customers will see the writing on the wall and
will follow the killer applications, which are currently expanding to other
platforms.

Quote:> You have a working Amiga setup, you have the software
> and you have people trained at using it - are you really going to
> get new software and retrain the personnel if you need to expand?

No, but what if the software is available on another platform?

Quote:> Especially considering that the software alone for that cheap new
> PC might cost more than a whole new AmiTech priced Amiga.

I don't know anything about pricing strategies for video softwares, but in most
other markets, high end software is not a one time expense anyway, but needs
constant upgrade & support fees.

Quote:> For the small one man company and for the hobbyist $3500 is rediculously
> much. For a company which has already invested in this technique, or
> for which no suitable software exists on other platforms - it's peanuts.
> Hell, let's not forget that Unis bought Macs which cost TWICE that
> just a year or two ago.

I agree that for corporate users, the difference is not that significant, but
the *signal* that this pricing sets *is* significant.

Quote:> One thing which might make a company think about changing to another
> platform despite heavy investments would be if they thought that they
> would not be able to expand by buying new ones, and if spares were
> in short supply. I guess that is exactly the reason Escom tries to
> get a few A4000s out the door even though they'll have to sell them
> at this incredible price.

Do they *have* to sell them at this price? Although I hate to contradict
Dr. Kittel, who has infinitely more knowledge about the situation than me, I
simply can't imagine that AmiTech wouldn't be able to profit from Escom's
established supply channels for most parts (in particular RAM, which he
mentioned). How many PCs does Escom build per year? How difficult can it be to
sequeeze in some orders for 10'000 Amigas?

Quote:> These Amigas aren't for mere mortals, people. That's what the pricetag
> is trying to tell you.

And what it's actually telling many customers is that the Amiga as a platform
is dying.

Matthias

-----

   "No tame dog is gonna take my bone" -- Velvet Underground, _Coyote_

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Big-Kahun » Sat, 15 Jul 1995 04:00:00


: You should realize that corporations are virtually cost insensitive
: when it comes to equipment. If you've invested $50,000 in a system
: of networked Amigas with single frame recording video and TBC and
: the software to go with it - you're not going to start replacing
: the whole system just because the price of one unit rose. You swear,
: you curse - and you buy. Or let's assume you do, say, 3D logos for
: TV programmes. Each completed assignment is worth $5000 for your
: company. You have a working Amiga setup, you have the software
: and you have people trained at using it - are you really going to
: get new software and retrain the personnel if you need to expand?
: Especially considering that the software alone for that cheap new
: PC might cost more than a whole new AmiTech priced Amiga.

Here where I work, the company spends $40000 per workstation per
engineer. Usually its an HP 735/125 or a SGI Indigo II. I would bet
that we could SAVE money by buying A4000's (for the lower-end
computing). Hell, they're faster than the SPARC 2s that will still
have laying around . . .

--

     _/_/_/  _/                  _/           Chris "Big Kahuna" Rampson

 _/        _/    _/  _/_/      _/  _/_/       NO cutdowns, flames, meaness
_/        _/    _/  _/        _/      _/_/    ONLY info. as I interpret it
 _/_/_/  _/    _/  _/        _/  _/_/_/  "NOT an OFFICIAL FORD spokesperson"

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Jyrki Saarine » Sun, 16 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Quote:> Read it.  But words are words.  Amiga users have been lied to 1000 too

Well, as it seems that the 3500$ figure is not confirmed.
 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Mike Noree » Sun, 16 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Thusly Matthias Neeracher spake unto All:
 MN>  a) Capitalizing on the strengths of the platforms, move as quickly as
 MN> possible
 MN>     to a faster hardware platform, and, while this move is underway,
 MN> maintain
 MN>     the existing market share with competitive prices.
 MN>  b) Recoup some of the acquisition cost by turning a fast buck selling
 MN>     overpriced systems to the customers locked into the Amiga. Don't
 MN> spend
 MN>     much on hardware and software development beyond making 68060 Amigas
 MN> and
 MN>     keep producing small series of Amigas until the user base has rotted
 MN> away.
 MN> Now, while the *rhetorics* of AmiTech have suggested strategy a), their
 MN> actual
 MN> *actions* suggest that Escom is in fact planning on b). If this suspicion

The price supports strategy a) equally well, IMO. I personally see these
10,000 A4000s not really as a serious product line, but as custom built
machines (if memory serves they would be built on demand, right?) meant
more or less as a service to important customers until production ramps
up. Building on demand will surely add cost to the machine, as will
having to start up very quickly. I also suspect that ESCOM will focus
primarily on Europe, so most of the RAM, diskdrives etc they do manage to
procure will go into those 100,000 A1200 slated for Europe, while the
A4000s are on backburner.

To sum it up: those who really need A4000s can get one, at a premium. The
others will have to settle for A1200s until production is ramped up.
Offcourse, you might be right and Escom is only trying to make a quick buck,
but it seems like a rather roundabout way to do it (hiring developers,
contracting retailers, setting up offices etc).

Quote:>> You have a working Amiga setup, you have the software
>> and you have people trained at using it - are you really going to
>> get new software and retrain the personnel if you need to expand?

 MN> No, but what if the software is available on another platform?

You're thinking of, ie, Lightwave? Well, my guess is that you might
save a few bucks by buying a Pentium instead, but that's provided you
don't have a lot of custom written software (which many companies do).
I'd guess that the makers of ones software wouldn't charge full price
for the version for the new platform, though.
The point is that the hardware price alone is a fairly minor issue
for commercial setups.

Quote:>> Especially considering that the software alone for that cheap new
>> PC might cost more than a whole new AmiTech priced Amiga.

 MN> I don't know anything about pricing strategies for video softwares, but
 MN> in most
 MN> other markets, high end software is not a one time expense anyway, but
 MN> needs constant upgrade & support fees.

Yes, but that's equally true of any platform (provided you don't get it
to work perfectly or the supplier goes bust). Switching platform wont
lower that cost, and the initial cost of the new software (+ licenses if
needed) will still be hefty.

Quote:>> much. For a company which has already invested in this technique, or
>> for which no suitable software exists on other platforms - it's peanuts.
>> Hell, let's not forget that Unis bought Macs which cost TWICE that
>> just a year or two ago.

 MN> I agree that for corporate users, the difference is not that significant,
 MN> but the *signal* that this pricing sets *is* significant.

But just what is the signal? If there is a signal yet, it's very muddled.
I wouldn't make big decisions based on it.

Quote:>> in short supply. I guess that is exactly the reason Escom tries to
>> get a few A4000s out the door even though they'll have to sell them
>> at this incredible price.

 MN> Do they *have* to sell them at this price? Although I hate to contradict
 MN> Dr. Kittel, who has infinitely more knowledge about the situation than
 MN> me, I
 MN> simply can't imagine that AmiTech wouldn't be able to profit from Escom's
 MN> established supply channels for most parts (in particular RAM, which he
 MN> mentioned). How many PCs does Escom build per year? How difficult can it
 MN> be to
 MN> sequeeze in some orders for 10'000 Amigas?

I cannot really comment on whether there is a very large margin of profit
on this price. It seems likely, but if they are built on demand (perhaps
more or less by hand) and since it seems certain there wont be much
economy of scale for teh A4000 - who knows? As to how difficult - they
have to find a plant with the right equipment to do it, and that plant
may not be contracted to do something else. That might well be tricky.

Quote:>> That's what the pricetag is trying to tell you.

 MN> And what it's actually telling many customers is that the Amiga as a
 MN> platform is dying.

To me it sounds more like the company making it is having difficulties,
as no doubt AmiTech is right now (understaffed, overworked, and with an
extremely tight schedule). In about six months the picture should have
cleared considerably.

 MN> Matthias

MVH: Mike Noreen

     Fido:  2:201/411.14

___ Terminate 1.50/Pro

 
 
 

Ed Goff may be write?

Post by Kevin Paul Kubi » Mon, 17 Jul 1995 04:00:00


Quote:>> Let's see $3,499 * 10000 = 34,990,000 right minus expenses looks like
>> they just made up the $12 mil expenditure and can dump the Amiga for good.

>Obviously you have not read the Escom press conference and their
>commitment for the Amiga.

They can say whatever they feel like saying.

I remember some C= members saying very similar things.

(Note: I am not saying that they don't really mean what they say.)

Kk...
--

 
 
 

1. Ed Goff may be write?

     Trust the market. AmiTek very probably will sell every last one of
 the initial run of new Amiga' at $3.5K. They wont sell the second run
 at that price, and may have no intention of doing so. Isn't is a better
 Idea to work down from the top than try to work up from the bottom.

     If anything is going to convence AmiTek/Escom that the Amiga is worth
 pushing in N.A.F.T.A, isn't it nice big fat profits, and the cash flowing
 in.

2. wowexec.exe Service?

3. frontpage hit counter

4. I am getting Hard Disk Errors, May Day, May Day ...

5. Creating advanced surfaces

6. ** F I R E ** Ed Goff Petition!

7. Which scanner?

8. ** FIRE ** Ed Goff Petition!

9. (fwd) ** F I R E ** Ed Goff Petition!

10. Congratulations, Ed Goff & Amiga Tech!

11. Dr Kittle, Ed Goff must go!