Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Jurgen Schwarzma » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 09:27:45



   I have used the Amiga for two years now. Although in the beginning
it fulfilled all my needs (ie. gameplaying), during my study I started
to feel the need for a computer with more power and better, more
profesional software. The choice was easy - after I've sold my Amiga
I will buy an Atari ST.

Let me elaborate what is wrong with Amiga:

 - Slow. It is so dog-slow. Only 7.14 Mhz, it just won't get you
   anywhere. Although it has some chips like the blitter, this
   doesn't speed the system up anything because they are not able
   to work in parallel with the 68000 due to memory restrictions.

 - Unprofessional. I can't get a decent wordprocessor for it, let
   alone a spreadsheet. The available drawingprograms are nice, but
   also lack professionalism. Atari ST has Calamus, that's what I
   call a wordprocessor, that's what I call professional.

 - Little midi and sound software. In contrary to the Atari ST, the
   Amiga has not ONE decent midiprogram (like Cubase for the Atari
   ST). Nor has it programs that take the best out of its soundchip.
   The difference between a radiosong and an Amiga soundchip song
   is just embarrasing (for the Amiga.)

 - The custom chips are old. Where are my 24 bitplanes? Why don't I
   have 16 bit sound? Why can't I read a High Density 1760 blocks
   diskette? Because the development of the customchips has come
   to a total standstill since 1987.

 - Compared to Atari ST and Apple Macintosh, Amiga realy has a lousy
   keyboard. I can't type on it. Same goes for the mouse. The Amiga
   mousebuttons are just shit.

 - Expensive. If you buy Amiga, then get your checkbook ready. The base
   machine is already more expensive than the Atari ST, but is able
   to do less (slower, less memory). If you want to buy hardware for
   it (which you are almost forced to do because of the lack of power
   of a bare Amiga) then make sure you have a big account. A modem for
   Amiga is much more expensive then a modem for an Atari, to name a
   thing.

 - Only 10 function keys. A decent computer should have at least 12
   of them.

 - Little Amiga magazines. Those that exist are either very expensive
   or about gameplaying.

 - No decent C-compiler with built-in environment. Why must I switch
   between the C-compiler and my editor all the time? Is it so much
   work to integrate these two things? Unprofessionalism strikes
   again.

I could go on for a while like this, but I decided to stop right here.
It's enough. From the above it should be clear that I am selling my
Amiga system. From the money that I get back from it I'll be able to
buy a powerful Atari ST system that leaves Amiga far, far behind it.

Jurgen Schwarzmann.

PS. I don't have an Email address, please respond through netnews.

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Gregory G Gree » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 10:52:02


[ deleted a lot of anti-amiga comments ]

Quote:> I could go on for a while like this, but I decided to stop right here.
> It's enough. From the above it should be clear that I am selling my
> Amiga system. From the money that I get back from it I'll be able to
> buy a powerful Atari ST system that leaves Amiga far, far behind it.

> Jurgen Schwarzmann.

> PS. I don't have an Email address, please respond through netnews.

                                            ^^^^^^^
        Trust me, you can expect to get a lot responses to the above post.
  I can already see the Amiga people circling like sharks, ready to go into
  a feeding frenzy.  I hope you didn't post this just to stir up the Amiga
  vs. ST wars.  Oh, well, this is after all .advocacy.  :)

                                                G.Greene

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Jeffrey M. Schweig » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 11:51:13


|
|   I have used the Amiga for two years now. Although in the beginning
|it fulfilled all my needs (ie. gameplaying), during my study I started
|to feel the need for a computer with more power and better, more
|profesional software. The choice was easy - after I've sold my Amiga
|I will buy an Atari ST.

Sorry you feel that way, but I don't agree with you (by the way the Atari
effectively isn't an option in the US.  If you think finding an Amiga dealer
and Amiga support can be difficult try finding the same for an Atari ST.

|Let me elaborate what is wrong with Amiga:

Let me respond in part.

| - Slow. It is so dog-slow. Only 7.14 Mhz, it just won't get you
|   anywhere. Although it has some chips like the blitter, this
|   doesn't speed the system up anything because they are not able
|   to work in parallel with the 68000 due to memory restrictions.

Only the 1000, 500 series and 2000 use a 7.14 MHz 68000.  The 2500 and
3000 are different.  And, the custom chips do work in parallel with the CPU.

| - Unprofessional. I can't get a decent wordprocessor for it, let
|   alone a spreadsheet. The available drawingprograms are nice, but
|   also lack professionalism. Atari ST has Calamus, that's what I
|   call a wordprocessor, that's what I call professional.

I'm not familiar with Calamus, so can't compare directly.  Even so, and
even though a 5.x upgrade doesn't seem to be coming, WordPerfect 4.1.12
still works.  Also, ProWrite and Final Copy aren't bad.

| - Little midi and sound software. In contrary to the Atari ST, the
|   Amiga has not ONE decent midiprogram (like Cubase for the Atari
|   ST). Nor has it programs that take the best out of its soundchip.
|   The difference between a radiosong and an Amiga soundchip song
|   is just embarrasing (for the Amiga.)

Again, I'm not familiar with Cubase, but the amount of professional music
software available for the Amiga is constantly increasing.  The selection
of titles from Blue Ribbon Soundworks alone, is interesting (Bars and Pipes
Professional, SuperJam, ...).  There are also products from Dr. T's,
dissidents, Hologrammaphone Research, Diemer, SoundQuest, and more.

| - The custom chips are old. Where are my 24 bitplanes? Why don't I
|   have 16 bit sound? Why can't I read a High Density 1760 blocks
|   diskette? Because the development of the customchips has come
|   to a total standstill since 1987.

If you want 24 bit graphics, you can buy a board to do it (although the
500 isn't very expandable).  Since a high density drive has shipped with
some 3000's (even though Commodore still hasn't announced the release of
the drive), clearly the current chips do not stop the use of an HD drive.

| - Compared to Atari ST and Apple Macintosh, Amiga realy has a lousy
|   keyboard. I can't type on it. Same goes for the mouse. The Amiga
|   mousebuttons are just shit.

You didn't say what Amiga model you have, so it's hard to comment on
the keyboard you're using.  I don't have much problem with the keyboard
on my 2500.  

| - Expensive. If you buy Amiga, then get your checkbook ready. The base
|   machine is already more expensive than the Atari ST, but is able
|   to do less (slower, less memory). If you want to buy hardware for
|   it (which you are almost forced to do because of the lack of power
|   of a bare Amiga) then make sure you have a big account. A modem for
|   Amiga is much more expensive then a modem for an Atari, to name a
|   thing.

The Amiga will use a standard modem, such as those used with MS-DOS machines,
Mac's, etc.  This argument doesn't hold.

| - Only 10 function keys. A decent computer should have at least 12
|   of them.
|
| - Little Amiga magazines. Those that exist are either very expensive
|   or about gameplaying.

The Amiga magazine situation could be better.  We've just lost AmigaWorld
Technical Journal, although AC's Tech still exists.  Even so, both
AmigaWorld and AC cover more than games.  I, at least, can go into a
bookstore and find an Amiga magazine - I haven't spotted an ST oriented
magazine in months.

| - No decent C-compiler with built-in environment. Why must I switch
|   between the C-compiler and my editor all the time? Is it so much
|   work to integrate these two things? Unprofessionalism strikes
|   again.

Actually, I like multitasking, and the ability to use the editor of my choice.
Why should I be stuck using what someone else feels is the right editing
environment.  SAS/C is a pretty good C compiler, and we have DICE and Manx
Aztec C available also.

|I could go on for a while like this, but I decided to stop right here.
|It's enough. From the above it should be clear that I am selling my
|Amiga system. From the money that I get back from it I'll be able to
|buy a powerful Atari ST system that leaves Amiga far, far behind it.

Good luck, and I hope you're happy with your choice.

|Jurgen Schwarzmann.
|
|PS. I don't have an Email address, please respond through netnews.

Jeff Schweiger
--
*******************************************************************************
Jeff Schweiger        Standard Disclaimer       CompuServe:  74236,1645

*******************************************************************************

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Guess wh » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 12:31:40


#
#   I have used the Amiga for two years now. Although in the beginning
#it fulfilled all my needs (ie. gameplaying), during my study I started
#to feel the need for a computer with more power and better, more
#profesional software. The choice was easy - after I've sold my Amiga
#I will buy an Atari ST.

HAHAH. This'll be a riot. You call the ST professional?!

#Let me elaborate what is wrong with Amiga:
#
# - Slow. It is so dog-slow. Only 7.14 Mhz, it just won't get you
#   anywhere. Although it has some chips like the blitter, this
#   doesn't speed the system up anything because they are not able
#   to work in parallel with the 68000 due to memory restrictions.

Evidently, you've just been sitting on your ass for two years. They
CAN operate in parallel, if you have fast RAM. If you want a faster
machine, get an accelerator or A3000, for christ's sake.

# - Unprofessional. I can't get a decent wordprocessor for it, let
#   alone a spreadsheet. The available drawingprograms are nice, but
#   also lack professionalism. Atari ST has Calamus, that's what I
#   call a wordprocessor, that's what I call professional.

Have you not seen ProWrite 3.2.2? Again. The ST is on the steep
decline. It's all but disappeared here in North America, and slowing
in Europe.

# - Little midi and sound software. In contrary to the Atari ST, the
#   Amiga has not ONE decent midiprogram (like Cubase for the Atari
#   ST). Nor has it programs that take the best out of its soundchip.
#   The difference between a radiosong and an Amiga soundchip song
#   is just embarrasing (for the Amiga.)

Music-X. Bars & Pipes. Dr T's series...

# - The custom chips are old. Where are my 24 bitplanes? Why don't I
#   have 16 bit sound? Why can't I read a High Density 1760 blocks
#   diskette? Because the development of the customchips has come
#   to a total standstill since 1987.

I suppose the ST can do this too. Ha.

# - Compared to Atari ST and Apple Macintosh, Amiga realy has a lousy
#   keyboard. I can't type on it. Same goes for the mouse. The Amiga
#   mousebuttons are just shit.

The ST's chip is *old* and archaic. It's well-known that the Amiga
sound is technically superior to the Mac or ST. Gee. American mice
have microswitches and all.

# - Expensive. If you buy Amiga, then get your checkbook ready. The base
#   machine is already more expensive than the Atari ST, but is able
#   to do less (slower, less memory). If you want to buy hardware for
#   it (which you are almost forced to do because of the lack of power
#   of a bare Amiga) then make sure you have a big account. A modem for
#   Amiga is much more expensive then a modem for an Atari, to name a
#   thing.

AHAHAHAH. Amigas aren't much more expensive than ST's, and are far
better in the price:power ratio. You can fix the memory problem, same
way you can on the ST. Memory is cheap. US$70-80 per meg. A modem for
the Amiga is much more expensive?! Where did you come up with THIS
gibberish? You can use the SAME MODEM on both. Talk about not being
aware of things.

# - Only 10 function keys. A decent computer should have at least 12
#   of them.

This is a nitpick. And a stupid one at that. The average Macintosh has
NO function keys. Many PC's have only 10.

# - Little Amiga magazines. Those that exist are either very expensive
#   or about gameplaying.

Amazing Computing has three magazines, two of which are very large.
Geez. We don't have a gameplaying problem in our magazines, here.

# - No decent C-compiler with built-in environment. Why must I switch
#   between the C-compiler and my editor all the time? Is it so much
#   work to integrate these two things? Unprofessionalism strikes
#   again.

You haven't seen SAS/C, I guess.

#I could go on for a while like this, but I decided to stop right here.
#It's enough. From the above it should be clear that I am selling my
#Amiga system. From the money that I get back from it I'll be able to
#buy a powerful Atari ST system that leaves Amiga far, far behind it.

Egads. You are truely unaware. You have stated so many misfacts. It's
appalling that someone could own a computer for *two*years* and still
not know much about it. Hope you're happy (giggle, smirk) with your
ST.

#Jurgen Schwarzmann.
#
#PS. I don't have an Email address, please respond through netnews.

You'll wind up with replies up the wazoo.
--
-------------- Why does it happen? Because it happens. -------------
---------------------------------------------- -- RUSH -------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Thomas VanNess Leavi » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 12:42:17


Memory is only $70-80 a meg if you are completely asleep at the wheel...
prices are actually more in the range of $25-35 a meg.  4 meg SIMMS run
$131 *new*, and down to $110 used... hell, someone just dump 23 meg of
256x8 SIMMs at $9 a meg!!!

Thom
~.

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Barry Barnreit » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 16:53:15


The base Amiga machine (a 500) is much more expandable than the
base ST machine (a 520 or 1040).  The ST is only easily expandable
to 4 meg while the Amiga is expandable to 9 meg.  I have heard
many an ST user yelling about how they'd like more than 4 megs
in their 520/1040.

As for ST being significantly cheaper, 1040 STe's are going for
around $400 while Amiga 500's are going for around $400 too.
And for $30 more, the 500 can be upgraded to to have the
same amount of memory as the 1040ST.  Big price difference!  ;-)

-BarryB

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Barry Barnreit » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 16:35:31



> - Compared to Atari ST and Apple Macintosh, Amiga realy has a lousy
>   keyboard.   [...]

We used to have a 1040 ST here and the keyboard on it was terrible.
The keys were very wide, slippery, and sculpted in such a way that
your fingers easily slipped off of them.  Easiest keyboard to make
mistakes on I've ever used.

My Amiga 500 I later got had a much more usable keyboard.  Mainly
because of the way the keys were shapped.  And my 3000's keyboard
is quite decient.

-BarryB

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Barry Barnreit » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 17:06:50



>              [...]  Atari ST has Calamus, that's what I
>   call a wordprocessor, that's what I call professional.

Calamus is a DTP package, not a word processor!

And as far as DTP programs go, the ST's best DTP program,
PageStream, is also available for the Amiga.

This statement about Calamus and the talk about modems
for the ST costing less is quite silly.  Get your
facts straight!

-BarryB

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Matt Cro » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 17:47:54




>> - Compared to Atari ST and Apple Macintosh, Amiga realy has a lousy
>>   keyboard.   [...]

Lousy Keyboard, same reason why I let go an offer to get a second hand
Sparc IPX, 1.3Gig drive and 21" colour monitor for AUS 20 cents.

Get real.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Crowd      Programmer      Marine Park Authority

"If a TrainStation is where trains stop,then what is a WorkStation ?"

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by David Meiklejo » Thu, 13 Feb 1992 20:43:59



Quote:

>[ deleted a lot of anti-amiga comments ]

>> I could go on for a while like this, but I decided to stop right here.
>> It's enough. From the above it should be clear that I am selling my
>> Amiga system. From the money that I get back from it I'll be able to
>> buy a powerful Atari ST system that leaves Amiga far, far behind it.

>> Jurgen Schwarzmann.

>> PS. I don't have an Email address, please respond through netnews.
>                                        ^^^^^^^
>    Trust me, you can expect to get a lot responses to the above post.
>  I can already see the Amiga people circling like sharks, ready to go into
>  a feeding frenzy.  I hope you didn't post this just to stir up the Amiga
>  vs. ST wars.  Oh, well, this is after all .advocacy.  :)

I won't be responding.  I'm just sitting here like a stunned mullet.  Who
can believe it?  After all our talk of cheap 486 PCs, Macs, NeXTs, and a
slew of advanced workstations, this guy is going to trade in his Amiga for
an ST!

What can I say?  What can anyone say?  Completely unbelievable...

 ... I haven't just slipped through a time warp to 1986, have I?  Can
someone explain this anomaly?

--


Computer Systems Officer, QDPI    | Fax      : +61 70 92 3593
Mareeba, Australia                | Voice    : +61 70 92 1555

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Philip McDunnou » Fri, 14 Feb 1992 03:02:35



[ ]

Quote:

>I won't be responding.  I'm just sitting here like a stunned mullet.  Who
>can believe it?  After all our talk of cheap 486 PCs, Macs, NeXTs, and a
>slew of advanced workstations, this guy is going to trade in his Amiga for
>an ST!

>What can I say?  What can anyone say?  Completely unbelievable...

I don't know about the trading part, but I've always enjoyed the 640x400
mode of the ST()'s.

Atari has some nice computers. In many way they have the same problem the
Amiga has w.r.t. sellling in the US. However, my main interest in recent
Atari developments has come from their announcement of support for
CD-I. Atari is not bad at marketing consumer products.

For what it's worth, there are some ST's floating around as terminals where
I work. However, I've never seen an Amiga. The multimedia nature of much of
the Amiga's software base, and the perceprtion that multimedia costs a lot
to do, seems to actually be working against people buying them.

Commodore would do well sticjing to the low end of the market and, perhaps,
having a higher end flagship product which they bundled with academic
software of note.(eg. AmigaTeX, Maple, X under Amiga DOS). They should
completely forget about Unix.

philip

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by David C. Nav » Fri, 14 Feb 1992 03:58:01



Quote:>I don't know about the trading part, but I've always enjoyed the 640x400
>mode of the ST()'s.

Well, the A500 with the new Denise and 2.04 has a 640x480 non-interlaced
mode, so....

Quote:>Commodore would do well sticjing to the low end of the market and, perhaps,
>having a higher end flagship product which they bundled with academic
>software of note.(eg. AmigaTeX, Maple, X under Amiga DOS). They should
>completely forget about Unix.

I'm not sure you understand the academic world over here in the US.  If they
forget about Unix, they can pretty much forget about selling machines to
higher education, excepting for "vertical" needs, like an art class of some
sort.

That doesn't mean that I'm particularly fond of Unix, I've often berated it.
Nevertheless, it is needed to sell machines -- and as long as you have a
decent implementation, you can start selling to the government as well.

In addition, one of the important lessons that Cmdre should have learned from
their '85 --> '87 disaster period is that ignoring the high-end makes your
low-end suffer.  That's why we STILL have basically the same graphics
capabilities that we had in '87.  I had understood that management at Cmdre
had figured this out -- apparently the folks that wised up have either left or
clammed up :(

That's not to say I disagree with you, that they shouldn't compete in the
high-end.  Technically they could, managerially they couldn't.  As a result....
At anyrate, they should have a competitive product in the high-end, so that
those designs can be cost-reduced and sold as low-end.  That is what has been
happening with PC clones lately.  There are plenty of folks that would consider
a $1300 computer pretty low-end -- and that's a '486 nowadays.  Trying to make
an A500 go up against a '486 is a sad note to the kind of philosophy that
exists inside of Cmdre.


"It has recently been claimed that Cmdre's management has -catapulted-
 to new heights of stupidity.  This is untrue.  They've never needed
 mechanical assistance before, and we see no need for it in the future."

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Natuerlic » Fri, 14 Feb 1992 03:45:12



> - Only 10 function keys. A decent computer should have at least 12
>   of them.

*Chuckle* The guy has a little disappointment awaiting him.

Nat!

Since this is c.s.a.a:
        Atari forever!
--

         "Bang that bit that doesn't bang"

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Gerald Washingt » Fri, 14 Feb 1992 04:36:46


Wow!  This is great!  After all this time spent arguing about Amiga vs.
IBM-clone vs. Mac, now we get an easy one!  Here, let me try to make
this even more simple:

I've decided to abandon my Amiga for an Atari 800.  The Amiga lacks a
cartridge slot, and I really love cartridge slots.  The Atari has a way
better logo; what's with that multiple checkmark on Commodore's machine?
The Amiga has too much software for it; I can't decide what to get.  I
never have that problem with my Atari.  The Amiga is too expandable; I'd
rather buy a new computer than add-on to my current setup.  The Amiga
makes all of these hi-fi stereo sounds that wake up the neighbors; I do
not want to offend them.  The Amiga has too many colors, so I can never
decide which is the best to use.

Most importantly, I want the Atari because very few people own one, so I
will feel special.

-- Gerald

 
 
 

Abandoning Amiga for Atari ST

Post by Thomas Darli » Fri, 14 Feb 1992 02:03:39




> We used to have a 1040 ST here and the keyboard on it was terrible.
> The keys were very wide, slippery, and sculpted in such a way that
> your fingers easily slipped off of them.  Easiest keyboard to make
> mistakes on I've ever used.

This is true.  In fact, the distance between the keys is non-standard.

Fortunately, the 1040 ST has been discontinued.  Try one of the new
STe/Mega STe/TT keyboards.  They're much better.  The Megas finally replaced
those silly slanted function keys with more usable ones, too.

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