Doom Games

Doom Games

Post by mca95is.. » Sat, 10 Dec 1994 05:07:57



Ok,

        This is for all the nay-sayers:

A Doom like game is possible on the Amiga.  Look at the 32x for Sega-
A big selling point is the DOOM conversion. Granted the screen is smaller,
and lower resolution- but the game is there, with just as many, if not
more colors, and responsiveness.

Before you say the systems are not comparable- look:
        The Sega/Mega has a 68000 processor in it's base configuration. It
uses similar graphics to the Amiga's (planar, not chunky), and has similar
modes (note the interlaced mode on Sonic II)...

        So, although I don't think The exact same game is possible, in
exactly the same way (coding and all), a similar game is possible.

        What I'd really like to see is a game combining both a vector
flight sim (like star-wars), with land based adventure scenes like Doom's.
It could be done, and I think It'd be great!

                                                Toodles
                                                Porter.

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Alexis Delgad » Sat, 10 Dec 1994 07:01:37



>    What I'd really like to see is a game combining both a vector
>flight sim (like star-wars), with land based adventure scenes like Doom's.
>It could be done, and I think It'd be great!

        WOW! a friend and I have been cooking up this EXACT same idea
after playing X-wing and tie fighter for hours on the PC.
send me your ideas/thoughts and you might just very well see a game
like this.
        Send replies to:


 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Zsolt Sza » Sat, 10 Dec 1994 22:29:31



>Ok,

>    This is for all the nay-sayers:

>A Doom like game is possible on the Amiga.  Look at the 32x for Sega-
>A big selling point is the DOOM conversion. Granted the screen is smaller,
>and lower resolution- but the game is there, with just as many, if not
>more colors, and responsiveness.

>Before you say the systems are not comparable- look:
>    The Sega/Mega has a 68000 processor in it's base configuration. It
>uses similar graphics to the Amiga's (planar, not chunky), and has similar
>modes (note the interlaced mode on Sonic II)...

The two are NOT alike; you are contradicting yourself! The 32X has a 40
MIPS RISC CPU and DOES have a new chunky mode (along with new, improved
gfx). Otherwise, what would be the point of it?

Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's still
4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Mark Brop » Mon, 12 Dec 1994 12:06:40




>Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
>against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
>RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's still
>4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

Nope, it really depends on the cpu but MIPS does mean very little in this
case. It would probably be faster but I doubt twice the speed. Although
calling a 030/50 lousy is pretty stupid. Very few people actually need anything
more than that. If the amiga had a chunky mode you would see doom clones.

        Mark Brophy

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Jyrki Saarine » Mon, 12 Dec 1994 23:39:56


Quote:> more than that. If the amiga had a chunky mode you would see doom
> clones.

It is not because of that. Chunky2planar conversion takes as much
time as plain mem copy from fast to chip (on a 040 machine, 030/50
might be able to do this also), and rendering should be done
to fast ram anyway, since it is much faster.

Quote:>    Mark Brophy

--

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by John Hendri » Mon, 12 Dec 1994 22:42:00


In a message of 09 Dec 94 Zsolt Szabo wrote to All:

 >> This is for all the nay-sayers:

 >> A Doom like game is possible on the Amiga.  Look at the 32x for Sega- A
 >> big selling point is the DOOM conversion. Granted the screen is smaller,
 >> and lower resolution- but the game is there, with just as many, if not
 >> more colors, and responsiveness.

 >> Before you say the systems are not comparable- look:
 >> The Sega/Mega has a 68000 processor in it's base configuration. It uses
 >> similar graphics to the Amiga's (planar, not chunky), and has similar
 >> modes (note the interlaced mode on Sonic II)...

 ZS> The two are NOT alike; you are contradicting yourself! The 32X has a 40
 ZS> MIPS RISC CPU and DOES have a new chunky mode (along with new, improved
 ZS> gfx). Otherwise, what would be the point of it?

 ZS> Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
 ZS> against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
 ZS> RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's still
 ZS> 4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

Oh sure, but did you know that a 50MHz 68030 can run as fast as 25 MIPS?  It
won't happen very often but it is quite possible, and if I would be advertising
a console I would go for the 25 MIPS figure instead of the 10 MIPS which is
more likely, after all it is just a console so who is going to prove me wrong?

MIPS don't mean nothing.  Comparing RISC to CISC is totally useless.  It is
quite possible that CISC can do stuff with 1 single instruction which would
require 10+ on a RISC processor.

Also, CISC chips are often programmed directly (ie.  in Assembler).  With RISC
this is more unlikely simply because they are harder to program (just like
Intel processors) and so stuff will often get done in some high level language
which will produce slower results.  I'm not saying they will but it does seem
likely (even DOOM was largely programmed in C...)

(Oh, it really is true that a 50MHz 68030 can run at a max of 25 MIPS, but I'm
sure someone wants to prove me wrong...  I'll be waiting)

Grtz John

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Doom Games

Post by mca95is.. » Wed, 14 Dec 1994 04:46:14



Quote:>In a message of 09 Dec 94 Zsolt Szabo wrote to All:

> >> This is for all the nay-sayers:

> >> A Doom like game is possible on the Amiga.  Look at the 32x for Sega- A
> >> big selling point is the DOOM conversion. Granted the screen is smaller,
> >> and lower resolution- but the game is there, with just as many, if not
> >> more colors, and responsiveness.

> >> Before you say the systems are not comparable- look:
> >> The Sega/Mega has a 68000 processor in it's base configuration. It uses
> >> similar graphics to the Amiga's (planar, not chunky), and has similar
> >> modes (note the interlaced mode on Sonic II)...

> ZS> The two are NOT alike; you are contradicting yourself! The 32X has a 40
> ZS> MIPS RISC CPU and DOES have a new chunky mode (along with new, improved
> ZS> gfx). Otherwise, what would be the point of it?

> ZS> Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
> ZS> against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
> ZS> RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's still
> ZS> 4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

>Oh sure, but did you know that a 50MHz 68030 can run as fast as 25 MIPS?  It
>won't happen very often but it is quite possible, and if I would be advertising
>a console I would go for the 25 MIPS figure instead of the 10 MIPS which is
>more likely, after all it is just a console so who is going to prove me wrong?

>MIPS don't mean nothing.  Comparing RISC to CISC is totally useless.  It is
>quite possible that CISC can do stuff with 1 single instruction which would
>require 10+ on a RISC processor.

>Grtz John

        Wow, I had no idea this would generate so much noise ;-)

        At any rate, I agree with John above.  If the Sega is doing 40 MIPS,
it should be out preforming a number of lower 486s (ie DX33s).  I doubt many
of you will agree that that is a possibility...

        Prehaps it's doing 40M NOP instructions per second.  It's a fact that
manufacturers build in test instructions that do very little, and are usually
useless in application to rate their machines in terms of MIPS.

        Additionally, a RISC CPU will have to execute far more instructions
on average to accomplish what one CISC instruction might.  Now, I'm not
saying that RISC isn't the way of the future- but try to look past the
hype.

        In any case, having seen and used the 32x (played the Star Wars game)
I am pleased, but not impressed.  It is better, but hardly a humonous
revolution...

        In any case- check the facts- and we'll see who laughs last.  Granted
there is less pro devlopment along that angle in the Doom arena on the Amiga,
but there is a number of semi-pro and amatuer (tho not in ablity) people
working on it.   As I've said before, let's not do Doom, let's OUTDO Doom!

                                        Porter

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Theodore Wani » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 03:13:55





> >MIPS don't mean nothing.  Comparing RISC to CISC is totally useless.  It is
> >quite possible that CISC can do stuff with 1 single instruction which would
> >require 10+ on a RISC processor.
...
>    Prehaps it's doing 40M NOP instructions per second.  It's a fact that
> manufacturers build in test instructions that do very little, and are usually
> useless in application to rate their machines in terms of MIPS.

>    Additionally, a RISC CPU will have to execute far more instructions
> on average to accomplish what one CISC instruction might.  Now, I'm not
> saying that RISC isn't the way of the future- but try to look past the
> hype.

Comparing RISC and CISC solely in terms of number of instructions executed
is not quite valid.  You have to take into account the number of counts per
instruction, the clock rate, and the instruction count.  Though there might
exist some instruction on a CISC CPU which performs many things, a sequence
of instructions on a RISC CPU which accomplishes the same task might, in fact,
take less time overall, due to a reduced number of instructions per cycle
coupled with a higher clock rate.  Thus RISC is more "streamlined" than
CISC, requiring less hardware in the CPU.  However, fewer complex
instructions does lead in general to larger code sizes for RISC-compiled
software.
 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Mark Brop » Thu, 15 Dec 1994 18:24:36



>> more than that. If the amiga had a chunky mode you would see doom
>> clones.
>It is not because of that. Chunky2planar conversion takes as much
>time as plain mem copy from fast to chip (on a 040 machine, 030/50
>might be able to do this also), and rendering should be done
>to fast ram anyway, since it is much faster.

This is on an 040. Writing games for 030+ amigas is absurd, there just aren't
enough of them. Sure you could do it on a 4000, but why would s/w companies
bother if they wouldn't make much money. If we had a chunky mode, you could
do it on a 1200, and games would probably roll on in.

        Mark Brophy

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Kevin Pico » Sat, 17 Dec 1994 22:59:00


In a message of 11 Dec 94 Jyrki Saarinen wrote to All:


 >> more than that. If the amiga had a chunky mode you would see doom clones.

 JS> It is not because of that. Chunky2planar conversion takes as much time
 JS> as plain mem copy from fast to chip (on a 040 machine, 030/50 might be
 JS> able to do this also), and rendering should be done to fast ram anyway,
 JS> since it is much faster.

 What?, So you claim that there is no overhead in C2p on 040 based machines..

 Hmmmm... HAving worked on C2p routines over the past year, for
 020/030 & 040's i am yet come anywhere near your claim... and would be
 so bold as to say that's not possible....

 I will Agree but, i do feel also Doom is very possible of a planar based
 040 system... but theres no market to bother developing it ... Sigh!.

 Cya,
 Kevin Picone

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Maxwell Daym » Sun, 18 Dec 1994 09:21:34


:  What?, So you claim that there is no overhead in C2p on 040 based machines..

No, the claim is that the process is fast enough that it takes no more
time to do it than it takes to write to chipmem ANYWAY. Face, the 68040
does a LOT of waiting (relatively speaking) when writing to chip mem.

:  Hmmmm... HAving worked on C2p routines over the past year, for
:  020/030 & 040's i am yet come anywhere near your claim... and would be
:  so bold as to say that's not possible....

Were you using the 68040's various special modes and such? An 040
programmed like an 030 isn't NEARLY as impressive as an 040 running code
DESIGNED with the 040 in mine.

:  I will Agree but, i do feel also Doom is very possible of a planar based
:  040 system... but theres no market to bother developing it ... Sigh!.

Make it for all the Spectrum, Rainbow, Picollo, Picasso II, Retina Z2,
Retina Z3, etc. users. This might have an interesting side effect:

1. More people would buy gfx cards
2. The prices for gfx cards would lower because more people buy them
3. rinse and repeat from 1.

If someone can make an app (prefereably multiple vertical apps) that can
entice enough people, the above loop WILL happen. This is a way of
almost exponentially expanding a market.

------------------ !  A machine is as distinctly and brilliantly
  Maxwell Daymon   !  and expressively human as a violin sonata

------------------ !                               - G. Vlastos

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Kevin Pico » Mon, 19 Dec 1994 23:07:56




 mrc> Subject: Re: Doom Games
 mrc> Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc

  > :  What?, So you claim that there is no overhead in C2p on 040 based
 > machines..

 mrc> No, the claim is that the process is fast enough that it takes no more

 mrc> time to do it than it takes to write to chipmem ANYWAY. Face, the
 mrc> 68040  does a LOT of waiting (relatively speaking) when writing to chip
 mrc> mem.

 True.

 > :  Hmmmm... HAving worked on C2p routines over the past year, for :
 > 020/030 & 040's i am yet come anywhere near your claim... and would be :
 > so bold as to say that's not possible....

 mrc> Were you using the 68040's various special modes and such? An 040
 mrc> programmed like an 030 isn't NEARLY as impressive as an 040 running
 mrc> code  DESIGNED with the 040 in mine.

 Well Yep sort of.. I dont have one personaly for my tests, but we do have
 easy access to an 040 based system....

 The C2p Conversion is unlike all the other methods i have seen to date.

 The engine will contain multi versions of the c2p'er all opt'd for each
 cpu....

 My results at present.. are a lot better than i had ever imagined
 possible...

 > :  I will Agree but, i do feel also Doom is very possible of a planar
 > based :  040 system... but theres no market to bother developing it ...
 > Sigh!.

 mrc> Make it for all the Spectrum, Rainbow, Picollo, Picasso II, Retina Z2,
 mrc> Retina Z3, etc. users. This might have an interesting side effect:

 mrc> 1. More people would buy gfx cards
 mrc> 2. The prices for gfx cards would lower because more people buy them 3.
 mrc> rinse and repeat from 1.

 True again... iTs just that small dividing factor ... Having to code it. ;-)

 Anyway, when we release our Reality V2.0 AGA (A complete recode of our
 first engine - thank GOD!) i think people are in for a big shock......
 ( well i hope so anyway;-)

 We are planning GFX card versions as we speak.

 The engine at present is NOT a doom styled , it's based upon id's
 blade stone engine.....

 mrc> If someone can make an app (prefereably multiple vertical apps) that
 mrc> can  entice enough people, the above loop WILL happen. This is a way of
 mrc> almost exponentially expanding a market.

 Well we will try.. if we can pull it off, and get some positive feedback
 about realityv2.0 well then the PC doesn't look so atractive anymore.

 Cya,
 Kevin Picone

--
|Fidonet:  Kevin Picone 3:637/101.2

|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by Kevin Pico » Mon, 19 Dec 1994 23:17:58


In a message of 11 Dec 94 John Hendrikx wrote to All:

 Hi John,


 JH> In a message of 09 Dec 94 Zsolt Szabo wrote to All:

 >>> This is for all the nay-sayers:

 (munch....)

 ZS>> Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
 ZS>> against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
 ZS>> RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's
 ZS>> still 4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

 JH> Oh sure, but did you know that a 50MHz 68030 can run as fast as 25
 JH> MIPS?  It won't happen very often but it is quite possible, and if I
 JH> would be advertising a console I would go for the 25 MIPS figure instead
 JH> of the 10 MIPS which is more likely, after all it is just a console so
 JH> who is going to prove me wrong?

 (munch....)

 JH> (Oh, it really is true that a 50MHz 68030 can run at a max of 25 MIPS,
 JH> but I'm sure someone wants to prove me wrong...  I'll be waiting)

 Just out of interest.... How can we get 25mips out of this cpu ??

 I think this might be something nice to know .... please do tell ?

 Cya,
 Kevin Picone
--
|Fidonet:  Kevin Picone 3:637/101.2

|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

 
 
 

Doom Games

Post by John Hendri » Fri, 23 Dec 1994 06:39:29


In a message of 18 Dec 94 Kevin Picone wrote to All:

 >>>> This is for all the nay-sayers:

 KP>  (munch....)

 ZS>>> Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
 ZS>>> against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
 ZS>>>  ZS>> RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well,
 ZS>>> it's still 4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

 JH>> Oh sure, but did you know that a 50MHz 68030 can run as fast as 25
 JH>> MIPS?  It won't happen very often but it is quite possible, and if I
 JH>> would be advertising a console I would go for the 25 MIPS figure
 JH>> instead of the 10 MIPS which is more likely, after all it is just a
 JH>> console so who is going to prove me wrong?

 KP>  (munch....)

 JH>> (Oh, it really is true that a 50MHz 68030 can run at a max of 25 MIPS,
 JH>> but I'm sure someone wants to prove me wrong...  I'll be waiting)
 KP>  
 KP>  Just out of interest.... How can we get 25mips out of this cpu ??

 KP>  I think this might be something nice to know .... please do tell ?

Simple, just don't use instructions which take more than two takts, so limit
yourself to Add.l rx,rx, Move.l rx,rx, Nop, Moveq, Sub.l rx,rx And.l rx,rx,
etcetera... there are lots of 2 takts instruction.  Ofcourse the loop should
also be in the instruction cache.  As I said, 25 MIPS doesn't happen very
often, but if I were producing a console I would advertise it with 25 MIPS,
rather then just 10.

Grtz John

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Doom Games

Post by Bo Najdrovs » Sun, 15 Jan 1995 02:15:21


: Oh yeah, good luck putting a lousy 68030/50 running at 10> MIPS up
: against a 40 MIPS RISC. And while some may claim that while comparing
: RISC against CISC, MIPS rating doesn't matter as much. Well, it's still
: 4x faster, so I'm sure it's at least twice as fast overall.

MIPS - Meaningless Indicator of Processor Speed.  The only time MIPS
       rating has any meaning is is when comparing processors within
       the same architecture (i.e.  68000 vs. 68030 )  Beyond  that,
       it's just marketroid fluff, and if you believe it, I have some
       fantastic beachfront real estate for sale in Arizona. (will
       sell really cheap, too!)

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bo Najdrovsky       // AmigaOS 3.1/Mac Sys7.1/BSD 4.4 - Coutesy of my A3000


 
 
 

1. Gfx effects in up 'n' coming doom games..?

While mucking around in the killing grounds demo (I still enjoy running around,
fooling the dumb blue aliens =)), I was thinking about what sort of features
might be in Doom games to come..  Can anyone think of any cool ideas?  Here's
mine -

- Completely 3d, no sprites

- Bump-mapping on everything

- Phong shading

- Real shadows with soft edges

- Realtime anti aliasing

- Light refraction in water, glass etc.  (is this in TKG?)

- VR stuff, with some kind of pressure pad type things inside a suit that sends
electrical signals to your nerves and stuff so that you feel PAIN!  ;) Or maybe
to give the effect of touching/holding things.  Well, maybe.  In the next 10
years or so.  =)

--
,----------------------------.---------------------------------------------.

:----------------------------:---------------------------------------------:
|PhilK in UnderNet #AmigaCafe|Graphics artist for the game 'Urban Massacre'|
`----------------------------^---------------------------------------------'

2. NSTL's YMARK 2000

3. Doom game for the Amiga(Death Masque)

4. Translate Virtual Mem Addr to Physical Addr

5. Shadows in Doom games

6. Postscript translator

7. GLOOM, cool Doom game

8. Lantest,Netwatch

9. ART NEEDED FOR NEAR-DONE DOOM GAME!

10. Doom and Doom ][ for 3DO in 95

11. Doom!, Doom! Mass Suicide planned for Amiga owners...

12. What is DOOM? Doom is

13. DOOM : LET'S GET ON WITH IT ( Id Software (Doom) responds!)