"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by grumpy4413 » Sun, 03 Jul 2011 02:59:42



My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?
 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Wes Leatheroc » Tue, 05 Jul 2011 08:57:56



Quote:> My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
> told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
> box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
> telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
> the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

I couldn't tell you about Ohio, but the buried drop serving me in
Oklahoma rises out of the ground and comes up to the conduit holding
the electric meter (to which it is grounded) and the demarc is at
about eye level, accessible to the customer, as it's supposed to be.

Wes Leatherock



 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by GlowingBlueMis » Tue, 05 Jul 2011 23:08:35



Quote:> My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
> told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
> box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
> telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
> the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

I have lived in many states, not Ohio, but in the old homes I lived in
that had phone service hooked up between the 50's and 60's the phone
cable aerial or underground terminated at a phone company junction block
either in the ba*t or the crawl space.

Most of those older homes did not have a modern phone demarc inside or
outside unless repair work had been done by the phone company in the
last 10 years or so.  They just had the black plastic looking block with
the 4 terminal screws.  Two for the actual phone line and two*
terminals for the rest of the house phone wiring.  A ground wire is
normally attached to the block as well.

After physically verifying if the more modern phone demarc, with the
RJ-11 jack, is missing you might give her phone company a call.  In
homes where I lived in Massachusetts and Iowa they came out and
installed them for free once I requested them.  It has been 10 years or
so since I last had one installed so things may have changed.

Just be sure to nail down if the installation would actually be for free
or if they would charge for the installation of the new demarc.

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Robert Bono » Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:18:36




>My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
>told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
>box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
>telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
>the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

Authoritative answer:  "it depends".

First off, it is possible that there is _no_ such "device".  For _existing_
single-family dwellings, the ILEC tended to install a NID/demarc device
_only_ when they had occasion to make a 'premises visit' for some other
reason.

Secondly, some 'underground' service to single-family structures runs
underground _to_ the foundation of the building, then goes up the _outside_
of the foundation wall, to the level of the ground-floor, and _then_ enters
the building.  In -that- situation, the NID/demarc is usually installed
on the building exterior at approximately the point where the wiring goes
_through_ the exterior wall.

Otherwise underground service may enter the structure _below_ ground level,
right through the foundation,  In _this_ situation, the NID/demarc (if any)
is found inside the building, in the ba*t, usually in the rafters right
by where the wiring enters.

Secondly, it is 'not necessarily' gray.  A demarc for interior installation
may well be 'telco beige' -- about twice the size of a regular surface-mount
jack, with a short (less than 6") cord that plugs into a modular jack, all
part of the same assembly..

_IF_ there is no NID, per se, then, generally, the telco 'legal liability'
is up to the first splice point in the wiring, 'at or inside' the building.
Things can get complicated if the structure is something like a townhouse.

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Lisa or Jef » Wed, 06 Jul 2011 05:53:04



Quote:> My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone. I
> told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
> box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
> telephone wires were underground to her house. Question - where is
> the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

Check carefully around the outside of the house.

If this is an older property, it is possible there was never a
physical demarc installed (like in my case.)

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by John Levin » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 01:35:50


Quote:>_IF_ there is no NID, per se, then, generally, the telco 'legal liability'
>is up to the first splice point in the wiring, 'at or inside' the building.
>Things can get complicated if the structure is something like a townhouse.

In my (limited) experience, even if there's no official demarc,
there's invariably a lightning protection block, with four or more
*terminals, cylindrical fuses, and a ground wire.

R's,
John

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Scott Dors » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 00:24:58




>> My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
>> told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
>> box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
>> telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
>> the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

>I couldn't tell you about Ohio, but the buried drop serving me in
>Oklahoma rises out of the ground and comes up to the conduit holding
>the electric meter (to which it is grounded) and the demarc is at
>about eye level, accessible to the customer, as it's supposed to be.

If she is in older construction, she may have one of the original
resistive-fuse terminal block demarcs.  If so, she can identify it
because it's the thing that connects to the cable rising out of the
ground, the wire coming from the house, and the ground wire.  Could be
a silver box or a black plastic tube or various other configurations.

A call to the telephone company will get it replaced with a modern
demarc for free if she wants.  This is usually a good idea since it
makes diagnosis of problems easier.

An awful lot of intermittent telephone problems these days seem to be
caused by cheap flaky telephones, and when people have five or six
phones in the house, finding the one that is causing the problem may not
be all that easy.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Lisa or Jef » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 04:21:18



Quote:> _IF_ there is no NID, per se, then, generally, the telco 'legal liability'
> is up to the first splice point in the wiring, 'at or inside' the building.
> Things can get complicated if the structure is something like a townhouse.

What is the definition of the "first splice piont in the wiring"?  Is
that where the house line branches out of the cable, where the line
splits to serve various extension telephones in the dwelling, or
something else?

What is the policy for older multi-family housing?  Ours has a large
junction box that serves many dwelling units.  In a sense, this
junction box could be seen as a demarc, but since many people are
served by it, I would think access is restricted to phone co personnel
only (to avoid accidental or intentional disruption to someone else's
service, plus, the terminals could be poorly labeled.)

(In our building, there are multiple jacks for extension phones within
each unit, but no one 'centralized' jack for the unit.)

Also, how would FIOS be installed in a multi-family building?  I would
guess the FIOS boxes would be placed adjacent to the old landline
junction box, or would entirely new wiring methods be used?  FWIW,
cableTV lines are simply punched right through exterior walls.

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Wes Leatheroc » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 09:44:10



Quote:

> I have lived in many states, not Ohio, but in the old homes
> I lived in that had phone service hooked up between the 50's
> and 60's the phone cable aerial or underground terminated at
> a phone company junction block either in the ba*t or the
> crawl space.

In many states, including Oklahoma and Texas, houses are customarily
built on slab and there is no ba*t or crawl space.

Wes Leatherock


 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by David Scheid » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 06:34:44



:What is the policy for older multi-family housing?  Ours has a large
:junction box that serves many dwelling units.  In a sense, this
:junction box could be seen as a demarc, but since many people are
:served by it, I would think access is restricted to phone co personnel
:only (to avoid accidental or intentional disruption to someone else's
:service, plus, the terminals could be poorly labeled.)

In my experience, an installer moves the pair serving a unit from the
common junction box to a normal demarc, either by extending the pair
from the common junction box, or by cutting it before it enters the
junction box.  Or both.  Sometimes, at the same time.  If the next
person to come along is lucy, he writes what he did on the wall in
sharpie.

:(In our building, there are multiple jacks for extension phones within
:each unit, but no one 'centralized' jack for the unit.)

:Also, how would FIOS be installed in a multi-family building?  I would
:guess the FIOS boxes would be placed adjacent to the old landline
:junction box, or would entirely new wiring methods be used?  FWIW,
:cableTV lines are simply punched right through exterior walls.

Probably, whatever requires the least work on the part of the
installer, but I dont have any first hand experience.  

--
sig 101

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Garrett Wollm » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 07:01:50




Quote:>Also, how would FIOS be installed in a multi-family building?  I would
>guess the FIOS boxes would be placed adjacent to the old landline
>junction box, or would entirely new wiring methods be used?  FWIW,
>cableTV lines are simply punched right through exterior walls.

In our condo (112 units), it was run to the same junction box in each
unit as RCN uses.  When RCN was installed, they built a new node
outside each building at attic level, and dropped into an upstairs
closet in each unit, where a cheap plastic junction box supplied the
new coax and twisted-pair lines to the bedrooms and living room.  The
original 1958 phone wiring follows a different route, parallel to the
electrical supply, which runs through the ba*t.  RCN (rightly)
didn't want to deal with the original wiring, which doesn't follow any
obvious path.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft

Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by AES » Thu, 07 Jul 2011 23:12:35


In article


Quote:> In many states, including Oklahoma and Texas, houses are customarily
> built on slab and there is no ba*t or crawl space.

And in states where houses do have crawl spaces, concerns over the Hanta
virus keeps many of us from ever crawling into them, no matter what.
 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Scott Dors » Fri, 08 Jul 2011 00:10:18



>>_IF_ there is no NID, per se, then, generally, the telco 'legal liability'
>>is up to the first splice point in the wiring, 'at or inside' the building.
>>Things can get complicated if the structure is something like a townhouse.

>In my (limited) experience, even if there's no official demarc,
>there's invariably a lightning protection block, with four or more
>screw terminals, cylindrical fuses, and a ground wire.

That block is, for all legal purposes, the demarc.  You own the wiring
after it, they own the wiring before it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by T. Keatin » Fri, 08 Jul 2011 04:42:29


On Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:59:42 -0700 (PDT), grumpy44134


>My friend is having an intermittent problem with her home phone.  I
>told her to find the gray demarc/Telephone Network Interface (Ohio)
>box. After not being able to find it, she reminded me her power and
>telephone wires were underground to her house.  Question - where is
>the demarc for underground telephone service (in Ohio)?

Look for the electric service meter and power main disconnect.

The teleco demarc should be close to it, (for grounding/bonding
purposes).  

 
 
 

"Underground" demarc? [telecom]

Post by Robert Bono » Fri, 08 Jul 2011 05:20:50





>> _IF_ there is no NID, per se, then, generally, the telco 'legal liability'
>> is up to the first splice point in the wiring, 'at or inside' the building.
>> Things can get complicated if the structure is something like a townhouse.

>What is the definition of the "first splice piont in the wiring"?  Is
>that where the house line branches out of the cable, where the line
>splits to serve various extension telephones in the dwelling, or
>something else?

For [those] who cannot read, I repeat: "'at or inside' the building."  This
_clearly_ eliminates the first alternative in the [above] question.

As for the rest, "it depends'.  On _how_ the wiring is done, and _where_
the end of the wire _to_ the building is.

Quote:>What is the policy for older multi-family housing?  Ours has a large
>junction box that serves many dwelling units.  In a sense, this
>junction box could be seen as a demarc, but since many people are
>served by it, I would think access is restricted to phone co personnel
>only (to avoid accidental or intentional disruption to someone else's
>service, plus, the terminals could be poorly labeled.)

What you think is 'immaterial and irrelevant'.  There is an old saying
that "logic and the law have _nothing_ in common."

The telco liability, in all probability _does_ end at that junction box.

IN GENERAL, the unit owner is responsible only for all the in-unit wiring,
the *building* owner is responsible for the in-building wiring _before_ it
reaches the individual unit, and the telco responsibility at the main junction
box.  Condo's can be more complicated -- the assn. _may_ be responsible for
everything that is 'inside a wall'.

 
 
 

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