InDesign vs Ventura

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by David M Rowel » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 03:04:48



I'm trying to do a very simple thing - set out a book - and am struggling to
find suitable software.

Sadly, InDesign, with all its bells and whistles, just does not seem to have
enough basic 'ordinary' features for this very pedestrian task.

No Table of Contents or Indexing (unless you spend another $399 on a plug-in
or get cumbersome script files and do it outside of the program itself)

No Footnotes

No Anchored Frames (as per my several preceding posts)

I also looked at Pagemaker, but I have Win2k and that seems to eliminate
Pagemaker.  I looked at Quark, but found its interface and help files so
rudimentary as to definitely bely its advancing age, and just did not want
to struggle with yet another tortuously user-unfriendly piece of software if
I could avoid it.

To my surprise, it looks like Corel Ventura has all the features I need
(special thanks to* Margulis for the suggestion - I'd completely
overlooked Ventura, although I'd had a copy of it way back when it was a
Xerox product maybe 12 years ago!) and it looks to be an excellent fit.
 But - some questions and concerns :

 - is it still a current product and supported by Corel?
 - why is it so seemingly shunned by the user community?
 - does it run under Win2K

Any comments/advice would be much appreciated.  And, for that matter, if you
are looking to sell an unwanted copy of it at a good price, please let me
know that too!

Many thanks in advance

David.

 
 
 

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by Helmut P. Einfal » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 04:14:41


Quote:> But - some questions and concerns :

> - is it still a current product and supported by Corel?

Yes. See:
http://www.veryComputer.com/+FTContentServer?pagename=C
orel/Product/FullList

Quote:> - why is it so seemingly shunned by the user community?

This goes back to the transition from V.4.3 to 5 (incidentally this was
when it came to Corel...). What used to work more or less fine under 4.3
did build up nicely in V 5, but at any time you'd get unexpected errors
of all sorts, hangs, etc.etc.
If you'd open the file that had worked and saved perfectly yesterday,
you'd suddenly find paragraphs and paragraphs formatted in 120 pt times
bold italics underlined in yellow color or the like, blowing up your
carefully laid-out 96 pp brochure to 600+ pages and subsequently
crashing your system (and the file with it); every single time you'd
move one page up or down the whole process of repaginationg started over
and over, giving you different breaks after every page (and more so if
footnotes were concerned), and so forth...
The tale of woes is endless, and although we vere keen Ventura users
ever since its original GEM times, you'd see "I HATE Ventura" and
"Ventura SUCKS" comments (and worse) postered all over the publishing
house I used to work with...
What was worse is that Ventura support simply couldn't get it right -- I
dunno how many times we called them, but they always told us that they
were aware of the problems and bug fixes were being developed etc. --
but never ever any real fix appeared. It was worse than MS Word, and
that is some achievement...

In the end we dropped it altogether.
Graphics-intensive publications were made exclusively in PageMaker, and
it was much less of a hassle. Footnote-intensive publications were made
in FrameMaker or even in PM (once you got the hang of the workarounds it
is pretty easy), and when Ventury 7 was announced we'd simply ignore it.

Now, I've played around with Ventura 7 a bit and I admit that it behaves
a lot better than 5, but *we* would not take it up any more.
Colleagues from other companies say that V8 is even better than it ever
was, but by now we have found our tools...

I've heard the same tale of woes from many others (and I presume
somebody else is going to *in here adding to it...) -- and that's
the reson why the to the majority of the community Ventura is sort of
anathema...

Quote:> - does it run under Win2K

Corel sez: Win95 or NT 4.0 minimum... they don't lose a word about the
maximum

HTH
Helmut
--
Brought to you by IBM PS/2 power

 
 
 

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by Neil Goul » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:21:16


Hi all,

I agree with Helmut, except for just a couple of minor points...



Quote:

> > But - some questions and concerns :

> > - is it still a current product and supported by Corel?

> Yes. See:

http://www3.corel.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=C
Quote:> orel/Product/FullList

Be sure to drop in on the newsgroup corel.graphic_apps.ventura8, which
offers excellent tech support by both users and Corel techs.

Quote:

> > - why is it so seemingly shunned by the user community?

> This goes back to the transition from V.4.3 to 5 (incidentally this
was
> when it came to Corel...). What used to work more or less fine under
4.3
> did build up nicely in V 5, but at any time you'd get unexpected
errors
> of all sorts, hangs, etc.etc.

Actually, Corel bought Ventura just after Xerox released 4.1. 4.2 had
Corel's fingerprints on it. With 5, Corel tried to re-invent the wheel
and failed miserably; there was no version 6; version 7 was "almost
there", and the current version VP 8 w/SP2, is both stable and powerful.

Quote:> Now, I've played around with Ventura 7 a bit and I admit that it
behaves
> a lot better than 5, but *we* would not take it up any more.
> Colleagues from other companies say that V8 is even better than it
ever
> was, but by now we have found our tools...

While I understand your grief, there are many reasons to take another
look. For example, nothing handles legacy Ventura files better. Updating
the files is far less expensive than recreating them in another
application. Add to that the limited number of other applications that
can even do the same job (I can count *one* that comes close --
Framemaker -- and translating VP files into that application is a
non-trivial task).

Finally, in this day and age, the best way to give files to a SB is by
PDF, which makes the tool that creates the PDF no-one else's concern. I
just did a complex catalog in Ventura, output entirely via PDFs, and the
job ran flawlessly. In comparison, I just received 6 pages from a client
as QuarkExpress native files. They forgot to send the fonts. Or, rather,
they *thought* they sent the fonts, but for some reason, they're zero
byte files on their CD.  If I had PDFs, they'd have film by Monday
because they're color seps, and matchprints need to be made after the
film dries. Instead, I've lost 1/2 hour of my time discovering this, and
the client has lost a minimum of a week, as there's a holiday in the
middle of next week.

Quote:> > - does it run under Win2K

Yes, it does. There are issues, of course, but quite a bit of FAQ info
in the Ventura newsgroup (above).

Best regards,

--
Neil Gould
----------------------------------------------------------------
     Terra Tu AV   http://www.terratu.com
     Technical Graphics & Media

 
 
 

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by Helmut P. Einfal » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:28:00


Neil Gould schrieb in Nachricht

Quote:>Actually, Corel bought Ventura just after Xerox released 4.1. 4.2 had
>Corel's fingerprints on it.

But that was still updating the old code -- and it worked...
IMHO the main problem was the transition from something written for GEM
to Win3x and from there to Win9x

Quote:>nothing handles legacy Ventura files better.

Yes, maybe, but meanwhile we've adapted all the relevant files (and I
don't think we'll ever reprint a 1994 book on the political parties in
Russia without redoing it from scratch)

Quote:>(I can count *one* that comes close -- Framemaker

Indeed.

Quote:>Finally, in this day and age, the best way to give files to a SB is by
>PDF

The best way is to buy an imagesetter and do everything in-house.
Actually that's what my former employer (and now major customer) did
after summing up his SB bills of several years. And from a certain size
up it does pay -- they make some sixty books a year, and by now, 4/5 of
them are full-color...
Before that, we used to print to a (dummy) imagesetter and just hand
over the *.ps files, but that was in the very early days of Acrobat...

I still handle it that way for larger jobs or else give them the native
files. We've however made sure that we have the very same fonts
installed on both their and my systems...

Helmut
--
Brought to you by IBM PS/2 power

 
 
 

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by Neil Goul » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:34:14


Hi all,


Quote:> Neil Gould schrieb in Nachricht

> >Actually, Corel bought Ventura just after Xerox released 4.1. 4.2 had
> >Corel's fingerprints on it.

> But that was still updating the old code -- and it worked...
> IMHO the main problem was the transition from something written for
GEM
> to Win3x and from there to Win9x

Correct, and while 4.2 was really pretty stable, it didn't work under
Win95 as reliably. That's where 4.3 came in, but I didn't make that
transition. In fact, like you, I abandoned "upgrades" until I *had* to
use it for a project last year. At that point, I went straight to VP 8,
and have to say that I was quite pleasantly surprised.

Quote:> >Finally, in this day and age, the best way to give files to a SB is
by
> >PDF

> The best way is to buy an imagesetter and do everything in-house.
> Actually that's what my former employer (and now major customer) did
> after summing up his SB bills of several years. And from a certain
size
> up it does pay -- they make some sixty books a year, and by now, 4/5
of
> them are full-color...

I imagine that running ~30,000 pages a year would make it practical to
do at least some of this in-house. 8-)

Quote:> Before that, we used to print to a (dummy) imagesetter and just hand
> over the *.ps files, but that was in the very early days of Acrobat...

> I still handle it that way for larger jobs or else give them the
native
> files. We've however made sure that we have the very same fonts
> installed on both their and my systems...

Even for in-house work, I have completely converted to PDFs. They solve
*so* many problems and issues that *.ps files had. And, I *refuse* to
give out native files -- except after the job is done -- because I don't
have time or patience for the surprises that inevitably follow.

Regards,

--
Neil Gould
----------------------------------------------------------------
     Terra Tu AV   http://www.terratu.com
     Technical Graphics & Media

 
 
 

InDesign vs Ventura

Post by chri » Sat, 30 Jun 2001 09:34:55


What you need is Adobe FrameMaker.  It was designed to do exactly what you
seek.  It is the tool of choice of many technical writers.

Chris



Quote:> I'm trying to do a very simple thing - set out a book - and am struggling
to
> find suitable software.

> Sadly, InDesign, with all its bells and whistles, just does not seem to
have
> enough basic 'ordinary' features for this very pedestrian task.

> No Table of Contents or Indexing (unless you spend another $399 on a
plug-in
> or get cumbersome script files and do it outside of the program itself)

> No Footnotes

> No Anchored Frames (as per my several preceding posts)

> I also looked at Pagemaker, but I have Win2k and that seems to eliminate
> Pagemaker.  I looked at Quark, but found its interface and help files so
> rudimentary as to definitely bely its advancing age, and just did not want
> to struggle with yet another tortuously user-unfriendly piece of software
if
> I could avoid it.

> To my surprise, it looks like Corel Ventura has all the features I need
> (special thanks to* Margulis for the suggestion - I'd completely
> overlooked Ventura, although I'd had a copy of it way back when it was a
> Xerox product maybe 12 years ago!) and it looks to be an excellent fit.
>  But - some questions and concerns :

>  - is it still a current product and supported by Corel?
>  - why is it so seemingly shunned by the user community?
>  - does it run under Win2K

> Any comments/advice would be much appreciated.  And, for that matter, if
you
> are looking to sell an unwanted copy of it at a good price, please let me
> know that too!

> Many thanks in advance

> David.

 
 
 

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