converting MSW indexes

converting MSW indexes

Post by Robert Wa » Mon, 09 Jun 2003 05:49:07



I have been given a book consisting of a separate word file for each
chapter, and asked to design the book itself, which I wish to do in
Pagemaker. The word documents include an index, and each chapter has
index entries tagged in word.

As far as I can tell, Pagemaker does not recognize these tags. How can
I go about seeinf that all entries are tagged in Pagemaker so I can
generate an index from them?

Also, the word document has footnotes appended at the bottom of the
page rather than at end of chapter. Pagemaker moves them to end of
chapter. Can this be altered?

I have considerable experience with Pagemaker as a design tool (all
the way back to the original version) but have never been asked to
create a book before.

Thanks for any help out there.

R. Ward

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Marek William » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:24:19



Quote:>I have been given a book consisting of a separate word file for each
>chapter, and asked to design the book itself, which I wish to do in
>Pagemaker. The word documents include an index, and each chapter has
>index entries tagged in word.

>As far as I can tell, Pagemaker does not recognize these tags. How can
>I go about seeinf that all entries are tagged in Pagemaker so I can
>generate an index from them?

You are correct. PageMaker doesn't grok the index tags in the Word
document. PagerMaker's indexing is incompatible with the way Word does
it. The only way I know of to do this is to open the document in Word,
then do a search for index entries. For each one add a series of
nonsense characters in front of the word -- like "xgf" -- something
that could never really exist in the text. After hauling the document
into PageMaker, you can do a search for the "xgf" and redo the index
entry the PageMaker way. It's time-consuming, but at least you can
find all the indexed items. Plus, PageMaker's indexing is more robust
than Word's, so you can improve the index this way.

Quote:>Also, the word document has footnotes appended at the bottom of the
>page rather than at end of chapter. Pagemaker moves them to end of
>chapter. Can this be altered?

Can't be altered with the Word import because PageMaker doesn't do
footnoting. However, the way I have always done this is to take the
footnotes at the end of the story, cut to the clipboard, then paste
back as a separate story. Then I thread this story into text blocks at
the bottom of the pages where the footnotes go. At least PageMaker's
import filter leaves the superscripts in the main text. It doesn't
take long to thread the footnotes at the bottom of the pages, but you
do occasionally run into problems with footnotes near the bottom of
the text on a page so there isn't enough room to add the footnote.

Footnotes are a PITA. Plus, I always remember what my English teacher
used to say -- "if it's worth saying at all, say it in the main text."
However, I do realize that some works do need footnotes and you can't
escape it. But personally, I manage to use them only rarely.

Quote:>I have considerable experience with Pagemaker as a design tool (all
>the way back to the original version) but have never been asked to
>create a book before.

Check out PageMaker's Book feature. You should create each chapter as
a separate file and link them with the Book utility. Having done so,
the indexing and page numbering will work across all the chapters.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Dick Marguli » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:38:24



> You are correct. PageMaker doesn't grok the index tags in the Word
> document.

Just as an aside, I once had the pleasure of importing an indexed Word
document into Interleaf (never a fun conversion) and, a pleasant
surprise to me, Interleaf DID grok Word's index entries! First and last
time I ever saw any of Word's peculiarities properly interpreted by
something else.

Quote:> It doesn't
> take long to thread the footnotes at the bottom of the pages, but you
> do occasionally run into problems with footnotes near the bottom of
> the text on a page so there isn't enough room to add the footnote.

Marek, you probably know this, but it isn't clear whether Robert does or
not. There is a fairly standard way to break footnotes in this
situation. You stop the main text just at the line where that last
footnote is called out. You place your footnote rule (typically a
one-inch hairline at the left margin), and you run footnotes to the
bottom copy margin, breaking that last footnote at the margin. On the
following page, instead of the standard footnote rule, you use a
full-measure (margin-to-margin) hairline and finish the footnote. If you
are at the end of the chapter, the rule and footnote sit at the bottom
copy margin, with white space above to the last part of the text.
Otherwise, you proceed as usual. If there are additional footnotes
called out on the same page, they continue immediately below the broken
note.

There is fiddling to do in these situations. Often you can get away with
  leaving extra space above the footnote rule to avoid having one more
footnote than you want to deal with, but sometimes things just get ugly.
Fortunately, this is a lot easier in PageMaker than it is with an X-acto
knife. ;-)

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Gordon Wool » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:58:02




Quote:>You are correct. PageMaker doesn't grok the index tags in the Word
>document.

But it does!

Just to confirm it (and making sure that I wasn't just dreaming) I
placed a Word document with index entries and can view them in the
Story Editor within PageMaker -- they show up as white on black
diamonds when you show paragraph marks and can be seen by selecting
one and selecting Utilitities...Index Entry...

InDesign does too, and does it even better.

However PageMaker does have problems with WordXP files. And not
importing Index entries is one Adobe mention. Theirt answer is to save
back to a previous file format in Word, in which case the index
entries will import.

--
Gordon Woolf
The Worsley Press <www.worsleypress.com>
Publishers of "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter"

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Robert Wa » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:15:06


Dick and marek,

Thanx for the informative, if discouraging, information. I suspected
such was the case, but thought p'raps I'd missed something.

I agree on the footnotes (hate 'em), but it's not my manuscript.
Pagemaker drops them at the end of the chapter, author will probably
accept that.

Another anomaly has cropped up: the MS is delivered as a series of
word files, one per chapter, and I have just realized that almost half
of them place as blank brackets, no content. They open ok in word. The
rest of them import normally. Any ideas on that?

I COULD make the book in word, but I really don't like to do that.

I am, btw, familiar with PM's "create book" function, using separate
files for each chapter. I also know how to index with PM, so I'm not
hopeless :-)

Thanx again, Robt.



> > You are correct. PageMaker doesn't grok the index tags in the Word
> > document.

> Just as an aside, I once had the pleasure of importing an indexed Word
> document into Interleaf (never a fun conversion) and, a pleasant
> surprise to me, Interleaf DID grok Word's index entries! First and last
> time I ever saw any of Word's peculiarities properly interpreted by
> something else.

> > It doesn't
> > take long to thread the footnotes at the bottom of the pages, but you
> > do occasionally run into problems with footnotes near the bottom of
> > the text on a page so there isn't enough room to add the footnote.

> Marek, you probably know this, but it isn't clear whether Robert does or
> not. There is a fairly standard way to break footnotes in this
> situation. You stop the main text just at the line where that last
> footnote is called out. You place your footnote rule (typically a
> one-inch hairline at the left margin), and you run footnotes to the
> bottom copy margin, breaking that last footnote at the margin. On the
> following page, instead of the standard footnote rule, you use a
> full-measure (margin-to-margin) hairline and finish the footnote. If you
> are at the end of the chapter, the rule and footnote sit at the bottom
> copy margin, with white space above to the last part of the text.
> Otherwise, you proceed as usual. If there are additional footnotes
> called out on the same page, they continue immediately below the broken
> note.

> There is fiddling to do in these situations. Often you can get away with
>   leaving extra space above the footnote rule to avoid having one more
> footnote than you want to deal with, but sometimes things just get ugly.
> Fortunately, this is a lot easier in PageMaker than it is with an X-acto
> knife. ;-)

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Dick Marguli » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:07:49


See Gordon's response to your earlier post. Maybe you can resolve the
latest problem the same way--by saving to an earlier Word version.

>* and marek,

> Thanx for the informative, if discouraging, information. I suspected
> such was the case, but thought p'raps I'd missed something.

> I agree on the footnotes (hate 'em), but it's not my manuscript.
> Pagemaker drops them at the end of the chapter, author will probably
> accept that.

> Another anomaly has cropped up: the MS is delivered as a series of
> word files, one per chapter, and I have just realized that almost half
> of them place as blank brackets, no content. They open ok in word. The
> rest of them import normally. Any ideas on that?

> I COULD make the book in word, but I really don't like to do that.

> I am, btw, familiar with PM's "create book" function, using separate
> files for each chapter. I also know how to index with PM, so I'm not
> hopeless :-)

> Thanx again, Robt.



>>>You are correct. PageMaker doesn't grok the index tags in the Word
>>>document.

>>Just as an aside, I once had the pleasure of importing an indexed Word
>>document into Interleaf (never a fun conversion) and, a pleasant
>>surprise to me, Interleaf DID grok Word's index entries! First and last
>>time I ever saw any of Word's peculiarities properly interpreted by
>>something else.

>>>It doesn't
>>>take long to thread the footnotes at the bottom of the pages, but you
>>>do occasionally run into problems with footnotes near the bottom of
>>>the text on a page so there isn't enough room to add the footnote.

>>Marek, you probably know this, but it isn't clear whether Robert does or
>>not. There is a fairly standard way to break footnotes in this
>>situation. You stop the main text just at the line where that last
>>footnote is called out. You place your footnote rule (typically a
>>one-inch hairline at the left margin), and you run footnotes to the
>>bottom copy margin, breaking that last footnote at the margin. On the
>>following page, instead of the standard footnote rule, you use a
>>full-measure (margin-to-margin) hairline and finish the footnote. If you
>>are at the end of the chapter, the rule and footnote sit at the bottom
>>copy margin, with white space above to the last part of the text.
>>Otherwise, you proceed as usual. If there are additional footnotes
>>called out on the same page, they continue immediately below the broken
>>note.

>>There is fiddling to do in these situations. Often you can get away with
>>  leaving extra space above the footnote rule to avoid having one more
>>footnote than you want to deal with, but sometimes things just get ugly.
>>Fortunately, this is a lot easier in PageMaker than it is with an X-acto
>>knife. ;-)

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Marek William » Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:08:05


On Mon, 09 Jun 2003 11:58:02 +1000, Gordon Woolf



>InDesign does too, and does it even better.

Hmmm. I never realized that. I haven't used PageMaker in quite a while
except for old documents. Nowadays everything is in InDesign. So I
tried this with a Word 2000 test document and InDesign.

You are correct, it does import the Word index entries. However, I
noticed that the index mark is at the end of the term instead of at
the front. Doesn't seem to make any difference, though.

I'll still do my indexing in InDesign. I try to do as little in Word
as possible. But it might be useful in case I ever get a book
manuscript from someone else. Then again, I've yet to run into an
author who had a clue how to do indexing anyway.

I also tried it with StarOffice 6.0. The index entries did not come in
when I copied and pasted into InDesign. And InDesign has no .sxw
import filter. But if I exported from StarOffice as Word 97/2000/XP
format and then placed this file, it did preserve the index entries.
With Word it preserves them whether the file is placed or whether I
copy and paste.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Marek William » Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:22:21



Quote:>Thanx for the informative, if discouraging, information. I suspected
>such was the case, but thought p'raps I'd missed something.

Did you see what Gordon said? It turns out I was wrong about the
indexing. Evidently PageMaker and InDesign do import the index entries
from Word.

Quote:>Another anomaly has cropped up: the MS is delivered as a series of
>word files, one per chapter, and I have just realized that almost half
>of them place as blank brackets, no content. They open ok in word. The
>rest of them import normally. Any ideas on that?

Use copy and paste instead. PageMaker and InDesign will take it off
the clipboard as RTF, which should accomplish the same thing,
including the index entries. You might also try opening in WordPad and
then copying and pasting, although that will surely kill the index
entries.

If they still come in blank, then save from Word as RTF and place the
RTF file (although I think that will also kill the index entries). Or
save from Word in an older version of Word. Also, make sure Fast Save
is turned off in Word, as that creates messy files. Word files are bad
enough without deliberately making them worse. If you're using
PageMaker, it has other word processor import filters you might try,
too.

If none of the above works, download and install OpenOffice (free from
openofice.org). I haven't run into a Word file yet that it won't open.
Then save from OpenOffice.org Writer as a Word file and place that. I
just did that today when experimenting after reading what Gordon said.
It saved the Word index entries fine and they imported fine too.

Good luck!

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Robert Wa » Thu, 12 Jun 2003 12:58:44


Marek et al:

I have taken the simplest path here and am formatting the frigging
book in MSW. The client is not very concerned with "design" aspects
anyway, she just wants a book.

Meanwhile, all your info has sent me on a learning curve and I'll be
better prepared when the next project occurs. It seems to me that the
simplest thing would be to have the client and MSW document PLUS a
list of terms/words to be indexed. Then I can feed the list to
Pagemaker and it will take care oif tagging them.

Right?

Gawd I hope so, LOL.

Thanx for all the help.

(robt)

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Marek William » Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:34:48



dijo:

Quote:>Meanwhile, all your info has sent me on a learning curve and I'll be
>better prepared when the next project occurs. It seems to me that the
>simplest thing would be to have the client and MSW document PLUS a
>list of terms/words to be indexed. Then I can feed the list to
>Pagemaker and it will take care oif tagging them.

The "list" you are talking about is called a concordance file, and
it's almost always a very bad idea. PageMaker (or Word) will dutifully
go through the entire document and index each occurrence of each term
in the file. Unfortunately, probably half of those references
shouldn't be in the index at all. Many times a term is used just in
passing. You want only the places where it is really discussed.
Otherwise you send your poor reader on a wild goose chase looking up
pages where there is nothing important about the term.

Plus, you probably need to enter more than one entry for a term. For
example, suppose one of the terms is the Equal Credit Opportunity Act.
You might also want it indexed as Federal Equal Credit Opportunity
Act, and possibly several other variations. The key to a good index is
to second guess successfully how the reader will look it up. You can't
do that with a concordance file.

There really is only one way to do an index that is genuinely useful
to the reader -- the old fashioned way.

In the meantime. good luck with the book!

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

 
 
 

converting MSW indexes

Post by Robert Wa » Sat, 14 Jun 2003 17:38:58


Yes, I'm familiar with a concordance and I understand its limitations.
It does have its value, however, in that it can tag every instance of
a term and then you can go back from there and determine which ones
belong in the index.

Indexing has never been a problem for me because I have in fact done
it myself. In the present instance, we have a book typed on a Swedish
Language keyboard that is the author's own translation into English of
what is apparently the best scholarly work done on the goddess Freyja.
And, my friends, is not an indexing job I'd want to do myself. Which
is why I am doing the dang book in MSDW (it's working ok, pretty much)
because the author compiled her own index and I will just take it as
it is.

EXCEPT (sigh) some of her "grabs" for index tagging included a
punctuation mark, so we have entries for "boo", "boo," and "boo!", for
example. Those, of course, I can TRACK with the index once they're
marked, then remove the extraneous characters and generate a new
index.

This is not a project that is pleasing me....

(robt)

Quote:

> The "list" you are talking about is called a concordance file, and
> it's almost always a very bad idea. PageMaker (or Word) will dutifully
> go through the entire document and index each occurrence of each term
> in the file. Unfortunately, probably half of those references
> shouldn't be in the index at all. Many times a term is used just in
> passing. You want only the places where it is really discussed.
> Otherwise you send your poor reader on a wild goose chase looking up
> pages where there is nothing important about the term.

> Plus, you probably need to enter more than one entry for a term. For
> example, suppose one of the terms is the Equal Credit Opportunity Act.
> You might also want it indexed as Federal Equal Credit Opportunity
> Act, and possibly several other variations. The key to a good index is
> to second guess successfully how the reader will look it up. You can't
> do that with a concordance file.

> There really is only one way to do an index that is genuinely useful
> to the reader -- the old fashioned way.

> In the meantime. good luck with the book!