Grrrrrrr.

Grrrrrrr.

Post by John Jord » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00



Some days PageMaker really drives me nuts.

I merged 303 test questions from Word 95 into an Access 95 database.
The only way Access can read a Word file is if it is .txt and
delimited. No problem -- I saved the file as text only, imported it
fine. Then I merged selected questions back into a Word file, copied
to the clipboard and pasted into PageMaker. Did a little tweaking of
the layout here and there, and it all looked good.

Then I suddenly noticed that all the em-dashes were converted to
hyphens. Checking a bit quickly revealed the problem -- .txt files
can't seem to handle ASCII characters >127. For future reference, I
figured out that it is possible to do a global search and replace
within Access, once the data is in an Access table, so this won't be a
problem in the future. All I have to do is remember to search and
replace after importing data into Access.

But here I had this cool PageMaker document with all hyphens. "No
problem," thought. "I'll just do a global search and replace for the
space-hyphen-space and replace with space-em-dash-space."

Hah! PageMaker refused to find the hyphen. Not even if I copied and
pasted a hyphen right in the story editor into the Find dialog box.
Nope, it just says "Search complete." I mean, the cursor was right
before the stupid hypen and I had copied and pasted it into the Find
dialog box, but nooooooo! According to PageMaker that character was
not in the story. I tried the minus sign on the numeric keypad too. No
luck. Also tried the ASCII code for hyphen, and also for en-dash.
Nothing worked.

Sigh.

I finally solved the problem by going into Access, searching for the
hypen, noting which question it was in, and making a list of question
numbers to look at. Then I manually went to each question and replaced
the hyphen with an em-dash.

Guess we can add this one to the list of other stuff that doesn't
work. Like the discretionary hyphen which has never worked. And a list
of other stuff. Grrrrrr.

NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by SR » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00


What font were you using in PageMaker when you did your search and replace?
Some fonts don't recognize all the ASCII codes available in more common
fonts like Ariel, Helvetica and TNR.

>Some days PageMaker really drives me nuts.

>I merged 303 test questions from Word 95 into an Access 95 database.
>The only way Access can read a Word file is if it is .txt and
>delimited. No problem -- I saved the file as text only, imported it
>fine. Then I merged selected questions back into a Word file, copied
>to the clipboard and pasted into PageMaker. Did a little tweaking of
>the layout here and there, and it all looked good.

>Then I suddenly noticed that all the em-dashes were converted to
>hyphens. Checking a bit quickly revealed the problem -- .txt files
>can't seem to handle ASCII characters >127. For future reference, I
>figured out that it is possible to do a global search and replace
>within Access, once the data is in an Access table, so this won't be a
>problem in the future. All I have to do is remember to search and
>replace after importing data into Access.

>But here I had this cool PageMaker document with all hyphens. "No
>problem," thought. "I'll just do a global search and replace for the
>space-hyphen-space and replace with space-em-dash-space."

>Hah! PageMaker refused to find the hyphen. Not even if I copied and
>pasted a hyphen right in the story editor into the Find dialog box.
>Nope, it just says "Search complete." I mean, the cursor was right
>before the stupid hypen and I had copied and pasted it into the Find
>dialog box, but nooooooo! According to PageMaker that character was
>not in the story. I tried the minus sign on the numeric keypad too. No
>luck. Also tried the ASCII code for hyphen, and also for en-dash.
>Nothing worked.

>Sigh.

>I finally solved the problem by going into Access, searching for the
>hypen, noting which question it was in, and making a list of question
>numbers to look at. Then I manually went to each question and replaced
>the hyphen with an em-dash.

>Guess we can add this one to the list of other stuff that doesn't
>work. Like the discretionary hyphen which has never worked. And a list
>of other stuff. Grrrrrr.

>NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
>read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."


 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by Steve Mille » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00


Worked for me just this morning. Or was it this afternoon? These days are
just such a delicious, delirious blur!

Anyway, it worked. A thought here -- had you de-selected the character
you'd just cut-and-pasted? That is one way PM's search-and-replace will
hang -- when you've satisfied the search criteria in selected text.

Also, what platform are you working on?


> Some days PageMaker really drives me nuts.

> I merged 303 test questions from Word 95 into an Access 95 database.
> The only way Access can read a Word file is if it is .txt and
> delimited. No problem -- I saved the file as text only, imported it
> fine. Then I merged selected questions back into a Word file, copied
> to the clipboard and pasted into PageMaker. Did a little tweaking of
> the layout here and there, and it all looked good.

> Then I suddenly noticed that all the em-dashes were converted to
> hyphens. Checking a bit quickly revealed the problem -- .txt files
> can't seem to handle ASCII characters >127. For future reference, I
> figured out that it is possible to do a global search and replace
> within Access, once the data is in an Access table, so this won't be a
> problem in the future. All I have to do is remember to search and
> replace after importing data into Access.

> But here I had this cool PageMaker document with all hyphens. "No
> problem," thought. "I'll just do a global search and replace for the
> space-hyphen-space and replace with space-em-dash-space."

> Hah! PageMaker refused to find the hyphen. Not even if I copied and
> pasted a hyphen right in the story editor into the Find dialog box.
> Nope, it just says "Search complete." I mean, the cursor was right
> before the stupid hypen and I had copied and pasted it into the Find
> dialog box, but nooooooo! According to PageMaker that character was
> not in the story. I tried the minus sign on the numeric keypad too. No
> luck. Also tried the ASCII code for hyphen, and also for en-dash.
> Nothing worked.

> Sigh.

> I finally solved the problem by going into Access, searching for the
> hypen, noting which question it was in, and making a list of question
> numbers to look at. Then I manually went to each question and replaced
> the hyphen with an em-dash.

> Guess we can add this one to the list of other stuff that doesn't
> work. Like the discretionary hyphen which has never worked. And a list
> of other stuff. Grrrrrr.

> NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
> read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."

--

Steve
=====================
63 Studebaker R-1 GT Hawk
Indianapolis

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by John Jord » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>Worked for me just this morning. Or was it this afternoon? These days are
>just such a delicious, delirious blur!

>Anyway, it worked. A thought here -- had you de-selected the character
>you'd just cut-and-pasted? That is one way PM's search-and-replace will
>hang -- when you've satisfied the search criteria in selected text.

>Also, what platform are you working on?

Yes, it was deselected. But it should have worked without having to be
cut and pasted. I mean, I was searching for a freakin' HYPHEN! Just
plain old ASCII character 45. Just like you type on the keyboard.
Nothing fancy at all. And it couldn't find it. When it failed to find
space-hyphen-space, then I did the copy and paste thing, selecting and
copying a space-hypen-space out of the story. I pasted it into the
find dialog box. It had to be deselected, because then I left the find
box and went to the replace box and entered space-em-dash-space. The
story was littered with hyphens -- I could see them right there in
front of my face.

For what it's worth, the document had been copied and pasted in from
Word 95. I went back into the original document, and Word had no
problem finding any of the hyphens. Neither did Access in the database
file. And this isn't the first time I've had problems with search and
replace in PageMaker. It also fails to find typographer's quotes,
either open or closed.

It's just another one of those PageMaker bugs that annoy me so. Just
like the discretionary hyphen that doesn't work. And several meta
characters that don't work.

If it matters, the platform is NT 4.0, Service Pack 4. The computer
runs for months without being restarted. Nothing ever crashes. And
PageMaker has all the patches and stuff from Adobe. These things are
just annoyances. It just exasperates me when something so simple
doesn't work as advertised.

NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by John Jord » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>What font were you using in PageMaker when you did your search and replace?
>Some fonts don't recognize all the ASCII codes available in more common
>fonts like Ariel, Helvetica and TNR.

An instance of an Adobe Multiple Master font. And yes, the em-dash
certainly is in the font. It appears fine when I type the em-dash. The
em-dash is not the problem. The problem is getting the story editor's
find utility to find a *hyphen*. It finds the em-dash without a
problem. It just fails to find a common, ordinary, down-on-the-sidwalk
HYPHEN!

NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by jgd » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00


 And it couldn't find it. When it failed to find

Quote:> space-hyphen-space, then I did the copy and paste thing, selecting and
> copying a space-hypen-space out of the story.

Wonder if this can be a clue. (showing his CP/M wordstar roots)
Wonder if the spaces in the actual file are something other than
ASCII 32?  If so, that and not the hyphen could be the reason.
Definitely something to look at.

I just typed the string "FOO - BAR" in a PM6.5 file and did a hex
dump on it.  The characters were what you'd expect, 0x20, 0x2D, 0x20
(32, 45, 32).  But since your text came from an import, it may be
different.

John

--
John De Armond

Neon John's Custom Neon
"Bendin' Glass 'n Passin' Gas"

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by Gordon Woo » Thu, 13 May 1999 04:00:00


PageMaker does seem to get confused about Find/Change quite often --
and when it starts to go wrong, there is nothing for it except a
reboot.

This would be the most likely explanation for your problem, as I just
had to replace some hyphens with en-dashes and PM did it perfectly.

If what came in via the text file was anything other than a straight
hyphen, pasting it into the find box would not work -- there are meta
characters for non-breaking and discretionary hyphens, and searches
for one of these will not find the other (or a straight hyphen).

Double hyphens will import from text files as an em-dash.

What problems are you having with discretionary hyphens?
Ctrl/Command-Shift-(hyphen) adds one for me, though sometimes what
happens does depend on what other discretionary hyphens are in the
word in the spelling dictionary. Switching to manual-only hyphenation
for that para will let me do what I want. A discretionary hyphen in
front of a word stops that word from hyphenating.



Quote:>Some days PageMaker really drives me nuts.

>I merged 303 test questions from Word 95 into an Access 95 database.
>The only way Access can read a Word file is if it is .txt and
>delimited. No problem -- I saved the file as text only, imported it
>fine. Then I merged selected questions back into a Word file, copied
>to the clipboard and pasted into PageMaker. Did a little tweaking of
>the layout here and there, and it all looked good.

>Then I suddenly noticed that all the em-dashes were converted to
>hyphens. Checking a bit quickly revealed the problem -- .txt files
>can't seem to handle ASCII characters >127. For future reference, I
>figured out that it is possible to do a global search and replace
>within Access, once the data is in an Access table, so this won't be a
>problem in the future. All I have to do is remember to search and
>replace after importing data into Access.

>But here I had this cool PageMaker document with all hyphens. "No
>problem," thought. "I'll just do a global search and replace for the
>space-hyphen-space and replace with space-em-dash-space."

>Hah! PageMaker refused to find the hyphen. Not even if I copied and
>pasted a hyphen right in the story editor into the Find dialog box.
>Nope, it just says "Search complete." I mean, the cursor was right
>before the stupid hypen and I had copied and pasted it into the Find
>dialog box, but nooooooo! According to PageMaker that character was
>not in the story. I tried the minus sign on the numeric keypad too. No
>luck. Also tried the ASCII code for hyphen, and also for en-dash.
>Nothing worked.

>Sigh.

>I finally solved the problem by going into Access, searching for the
>hypen, noting which question it was in, and making a list of question
>numbers to look at. Then I manually went to each question and replaced
>the hyphen with an em-dash.

>Guess we can add this one to the list of other stuff that doesn't
>work. Like the discretionary hyphen which has never worked. And a list
>of other stuff. Grrrrrr.

Gordon Woolf, The Worsley Press, Hastings, Vic., Australia
--- Book publishers and sub-contract newspaper page production ---
Our books (and PageMaker hints): www.worsleypress.com
Our Format newsletter: www.worsleypress.com/format.htm
(for those who produce newspapers, magazines, newsletters)
 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by John Jord » Fri, 14 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>PageMaker does seem to get confused about Find/Change quite often --
>and when it starts to go wrong, there is nothing for it except a
>reboot.

>This would be the most likely explanation for your problem, as I just
>had to replace some hyphens with en-dashes and PM did it perfectly.

>If what came in via the text file was anything other than a straight
>hyphen, pasting it into the find box would not work -- there are meta
>characters for non-breaking and discretionary hyphens, and searches
>for one of these will not find the other (or a straight hyphen).

This is the first good suggestion that I hadn't thought of myself. I
assumed the problem was with the hyphen, but as you point out, it
could have been just with the space.

So I opened the file, and sure enough, it wouldn't find a single space
either. Then I tried a single hyphen and it wouldn't find that either.
Neither alone, and neither in any kind of combination.

And then, suddenly, it started working. The first time I tried a sole
space and had no luck. Then I tried a sole hyphen and had no luck.
Then I tried a space again -- and it worked. And I have no idea why.

Quote:>Double hyphens will import from text files as an em-dash.

These were originally true em-dashes in the Word document. They got
converted to plain hyphens when saved from Word as TXT files. (Yeah,
lame, I agree, but it's the only way I can get the data into Access.)

Quote:>What problems are you having with discretionary hyphens?
>Ctrl/Command-Shift-(hyphen) adds one for me, though sometimes what
>happens does depend on what other discretionary hyphens are in the
>word in the spelling dictionary. Switching to manual-only hyphenation
>for that para will let me do what I want. A discretionary hyphen in
>front of a word stops that word from hyphenating.

Discretionary hyphens with Ctrl-Shift-hyphen has never inserted a
discretionary hyphen for me. Lots of times I see a word that is a
technical term that is not in the dictionary, and PageMaker hasn't
hyphenated it, even though there is plenty of room to do so. If I
stick a real hyphen in the word, it splits properly. Of course, that
is not good if the text ever reflows during later editing.

But are you telling me that hyphenation must be OFF before
discretionary hyphens work? I always had it on -- my purpose in
putting in a discretionary hyphen was just to add one for a word that
is not in the dictionary.

NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by Gordon Woo » Sat, 15 May 1999 04:00:00




Quote:>But are you telling me that hyphenation must be OFF before
>discretionary hyphens work? I always had it on -- my purpose in
>putting in a discretionary hyphen was just to add one for a word that
>is not in the dictionary.

No -- just making a point that the application of discretionary
hyphens applied by the user can be upset by the existing discretionary
hyphens which appear in the hyphenation dictionary, so switching to
"manual hyphenation" for just the problem area can sometimes help you
put the discretionary hyphens where you really want them. I didn't put
it very clearly.

Incidentally, there's a similar discussion running on the PageMakr
List at present -- with the consensus advice being that when find and
replace plays up, you need to close PM, restart the program, *then
make some kind of editing change* before reusing find/change.

There was also a reminder that settings previously used in find
attributes can hang over to the next use (though I think you're aware
of this).

There were references to it being a problem since PM3, and, I do have
vague memories of problems of this kind back that far.

Gordon Woolf, The Worsley Press, Hastings, Vic., Australia
--- Book publishers and sub-contract newspaper page production ---
Our books (and PageMaker hints): www.worsleypress.com
Our Format newsletter: www.worsleypress.com/format.htm
(for those who produce newspapers, magazines, newsletters)

 
 
 

Grrrrrrr.

Post by John Jord » Sun, 16 May 1999 04:00:00



Quote:>No -- just making a point that the application of discretionary
>hyphens applied by the user can be upset by the existing discretionary
>hyphens which appear in the hyphenation dictionary, so switching to
>"manual hyphenation" for just the problem area can sometimes help you
>put the discretionary hyphens where you really want them. I didn't put
>it very clearly.

Thanks for the idea. I'll try that next time I need a discretionary
hyphen.

Quote:>Incidentally, there's a similar discussion running on the PageMakr
>List at present -- with the consensus advice being that when find and
>replace plays up, you need to close PM, restart the program, *then
>make some kind of editing change* before reusing find/change.

>There was also a reminder that settings previously used in find
>attributes can hang over to the next use (though I think you're aware
>of this).

>There were references to it being a problem since PM3, and, I do have
>vague memories of problems of this kind back that far.

That fits what happened the other day. It was totally refusing to find
the space-hyphen-space. Then I spotted a hyphen that was missing a
space, so I added one. It was right after that when it suddenly
started working properly. I didn't have to shut PageMaker down and
restart it. At the time I was nonplussed by the fact that it began
working right. Now I see that it was the editing change.

Thanks for the tip. I'll remember that next time PageMaker decides not
to find something.

NOTICE: The e-mail address is deliberately incorrect. Make the ISP
read "spiritone.com" by adding an "e."