OT question to you graphics professionals.

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Jaso » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:41:06



My client's client wanted to know if I was using a Mac or not, apparently
hinting around that this would be a factor in the quality of the work.

I ran across an old archived forum on a graphics review site, the final post
of which said "This guys really good. I can see that he uses a Mac! :)"

I learned on Power Macs and presently make a living on Wintel.  I see no
fundamental difference from within the applications that generate the
product.  Photoshop is Photoshop, Painter is Painter, etc.

Wintel has more plugin options for Lightwave, there's one for Wintel.  I've
spent time at CompUSA with the G4's.  The translucent plastic stuff is cute,
but hardly a selling point.

Either I'm a dense, lost person, or these people are full of it (false
dichotomy?).

Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Starlos » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 09:25:18


    Well this one sound like a battle lost. This client's client has already
decided he believes that only
     macs possess the gift of quality. Sadly there are still people that think
this way. Not open minded or
     guided by rational thought.

     The truth of the matter is this Neither a software package, operating
system or equipment used will turn
     out the best of quality only the person that is using it has the gift of
talent or not and with that gift can use anything
     and be creative with it and achieve quality work. Those that lack the
skill, talent, gift or whatever form of designation
     preferred will probably never produce quality work.

     Your task is clear should you decide to pursue it, you must convince them
with facts show them your work first
      several examples if need be. Do not begin with "I did this on a ( insert
system here)"  If they ask simply tell them
      the truth. If you have seen the image of the Chimpanzee that was done with
LW that artist choose a medium that
      they felt comfortable with and produced that. It is by far one of the most
realistic looking images that I have seen
      ( I think it was that sasquatch gallery page. )   There is no denying that
the artist that created it has talent, skill, gifts.
       the platform never even entered the equation nor would it matter in the
long run of things.

        Just my .68 cents worth...

                Starlost...
           ( and no I do not have that level of talent, skill, gift just yet,
but I am striving for it all the time.. )


> My client's client wanted to know if I was using a Mac or not, apparently
> hinting around that this would be a factor in the quality of the work.

> I ran across an old archived forum on a graphics review site, the final post
> of which said "This guys really good. I can see that he uses a Mac! :)"

> I learned on Power Macs and presently make a living on Wintel.  I see no
> fundamental difference from within the applications that generate the
> product.  Photoshop is Photoshop, Painter is Painter, etc.

> Wintel has more plugin options for Lightwave, there's one for Wintel.  I've
> spent time at CompUSA with the G4's.  The translucent plastic stuff is cute,
> but hardly a selling point.

> Either I'm a dense, lost person, or these people are full of it (false
> dichotomy?).

> Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
> such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?


 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Jeff Kilgro » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 10:00:39



Quote:> My client's client wanted to know if I was using a Mac or not, apparently
> hinting around that this would be a factor in the quality of the work.

Well, I have run up against this many times...  Especially when I was doing print
work.  Apparently, in the graphic design world, the general assumption is that the
Mac is the superior platform.  But like you say, the apps are the same regardless
of which platform they run on.  In the end, either platform may be more powerful to
an individual user based on their need, but it's not the tools that make a great
piece of work, but the artist.  For me (and for many others) the PC is the most
powerful tool just because it offers more performance at a lower price and for apps
like Lightwave, there are more plug-ins available.  It generally has a broader
software base than the Mac...

Anyway, without turning this into another PC vs. Mac fiasco, I usually approach the
problem in 2 ways.  If I'm dealing directly with the client who wants to know, then
I usually attempt to explain a bit about the PC - Mac relationship and how it has
no bearing on the end result of the work produced and I assure them that they will
be happy regardless.  In a situation like yours, you're probably best off to just
say that you use both PC and Mac and let the client draw their own conclusions.
There is of course no way for them to ever know what you use because the end
results are the same.

Keep in mind that there could also political motives behind such a question posed
by this client.  It could very well be that they are just an anti-microsoft
extremist and want to make sure all their work is done by people not using Windows.
;-)

Quote:> I ran across an old archived forum on a graphics review site, the final post
> of which said "This guys really good. I can see that he uses a Mac! :)"

Sadly still, there are still a LOT of people that feel this way -- primarily those
who have worked in the graphic design and printing industry.  Historically, the
desktop publishing and graphic design industry has been Mac based (ever since it
really became commonplace with desktop computers).  I taught some classes at a
local design school briefly in '97 and '98 and the school was heavily Mac based and
insisted on teaching all their students that the Mac was where it was at.  I
encountered a lot of animosity from other instructors and visiting industry
"professionals" because I used a PC and often produced examples in class sessions
using a notebook PC that was more powerful than any system they had at the school.

Quote:> I learned on Power Macs and presently make a living on Wintel.  I see no
> fundamental difference from within the applications that generate the
> product.  Photoshop is Photoshop, Painter is Painter, etc.

And this is true except for one very small (but sometimes significant) issue --
FONTS!   Adobe Type1 fonts come in different PC and Mac formats for some very
strange reason that even Adobe can't explain.  I personally think it was to keep
from devaluing their Mac font products when the PC started to crash into the
desktop publishing market in the mid to late '90s.  They created a different font
spec for PC ATM and forced designers to purchase all their fonts over again if they
wanted to use them on the PC.  Macromedia then released Fontographer, which is a
really cool app that can create fonts as well as convert Type1 from Mac to PC
format and vice versa, but I haven't worked with that stuff for a while and last I
heard, Fontographer no longer does this.  Because it violated Adobe's license
agreement.

All these font issues may be a little cleaner these days, but I doubt it...  A lot
would have had to change in the past 1.5 years...  Which was the last time I worked
with any serious desktop publishing related Mac vs. PC issues.

Quote:> Either I'm a dense, lost person, or these people are full of it (false
> dichotomy?).

> Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
> such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?

Nope, you're not lost.  You see what's going on.  The best you can do is find a way
to appeal to the client and keep working on the project if you can.  You either
have to convince him that the two platforms are equally capable or you have to
guide him into believing that you use Macs too.  It's sad that people have these
notions, but also keep in mind that they are not the design professional or
computer expert.  If they were, they wouldn't be hiring you to do the work.

--
- Jeff Kilgroe
- Applied Visual Technologies | DarkScience
- www.appliedvisual.com

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Ma3r » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:15:42



> My client's client wanted to know if I was using a Mac or not, apparently
> hinting around that this would be a factor in the quality of the work.

> I ran across an old archived forum on a graphics review site, the final post
> of which said "This guys really good. I can see that he uses a Mac! :)"

> I learned on Power Macs and presently make a living on Wintel.  I see no
> fundamental difference from within the applications that generate the
> product.  Photoshop is Photoshop, Painter is Painter, etc.

> Wintel has more plugin options for Lightwave, there's one for Wintel.  I've
> spent time at CompUSA with the G4's.  The translucent plastic stuff is cute,
> but hardly a selling point.

> Either I'm a dense, lost person, or these people are full of it (false
> dichotomy?).

> Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
> such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?

Sometimes it's the job of the artist to educate the client.

In the print world, Mac's may have an edge with certain drivers &
algorithms.  They've had a head start at being * there for some
time, but I've yet to see a side by side shoot out to really establish
that.  If you've more than one seat, it's easy to add one to a Wintel
network if it came down to it. It's just Chevy vs. Ford at that point;
whichever you're most comfortable with.

Be that as it may, as far as Lightwave is concerned there is no
differnece once you get to rendered output. I used to work at a mixed
shop and we ran some compatibility tests before a large job. At the
pixel level there was no difference.

The limiting factor as you mention was plug-in availablity.  At that
time, the Mac versions were a year behind at best if they were even
going ot be available at all.  One of the rags I used to get ran a 3D
shoot out ot long ago with dual systems including a G4. Performance
wise, the Mac's were dead last except on one or two minor tests.  Bang
for the Buckwise, it's pretty clear cut.

Use the money you save for a plasma ball out in the lobby or something.

M.

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Nick Hatzichristo » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:18:29



Quote:

> Nope, you're not lost.  You see what's going on.  The best you can do is
find a way
> to appeal to the client and keep working on the project if you can.  You
either
> have to convince him that the two platforms are equally capable or you
have to
> guide him into believing that you use Macs too.  It's sad that people have
these
> notions, but also keep in mind that they are not the design professional
or
> computer expert.  If they were, they wouldn't be hiring you to do the

work.

Reminds me of one time back when I started freelancing, I had just met this
hot shot executive of a big post production company and he was asking about
my work. After a while he popped the big one : "so you have your own SGI
then ?" - I told him that no, I worked on a PC, which gave me a reply of
"oh... But these don't have good picture resolution..." !!! That was the
moment I realised who I was dealing with : ) This was a guy who believed
that the whole animation / visual fx industry was based on one word, to him,
the end-all be-all of any digital visual creation whatsoever :
"Flame" (he had a preset answer to any and all post production problems, "we
'll run it through Flame". Of course his operators, thankfully, weren't like
him).
Funny thing is, I ended up doing some work for him once anyway, 2 years
after that incident. He didn't seem too sad that I did it on a PC ; )

Bottom lines, a) I find it hard to excuse any person, in any position (other
than *maybe* the janitor) not knowing the first thing about the industry
they work in. And b) when it comes to clients, "show your work first, show
your tools afterwards", I guess.

Sorry I got a bit carried away, but the whole thing came to mind again and I
just had to mention it, thought it was kinda relevant.

nick

--

Nick Hatzichristos
VFX Animator
e-mail : nixx (at) otenet (dot) gr
ICQ# : 48636115

http://users.otenet.gr/~nixx

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Jimb » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 17:28:33



> My client's client wanted to know if I was using a Mac or not, apparently
> hinting around that this would be a factor in the quality of the work.

> I ran across an old archived forum on a graphics review site, the final post
> of which said "This guys really good. I can see that he uses a Mac! :)"

> I learned on Power Macs and presently make a living on Wintel.  I see no
> fundamental difference from within the applications that generate the
> product.  Photoshop is Photoshop, Painter is Painter, etc.

> Wintel has more plugin options for Lightwave, there's one for Wintel.  I've
> spent time at CompUSA with the G4's.  The translucent plastic stuff is cute,
> but hardly a selling point.

> Either I'm a dense, lost person, or these people are full of it (false
> dichotomy?).

> Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
> such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?

You should, yes.  But keep /them/ happy.  Tell them you use both.
 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by nirsu » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 19:55:05


Get yourself an old, used MAc and tell him you work on both... he he
 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Will » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 02:54:48


Quote:>Does anyone have any reason why I shouldn't just categorically disregard
>such opinions as faddish cipher-barf?

There is only one reason:  They want to give you money.  Pick up an old power
mac for 5 dollars, if you don't have one already, and just tell the client that
you use both platforms, using each platform according to its strengths, to
produce a product superior to what you could to while restricted to either
platform.  If they are insanely paranoid of you corrupting the project by using
a PC at all, knock some sense into them.
------------------
Woooogy
I have to go back in time to pretend to be myself when I tell myself to tell
myself, because I don't remember having been told by myself to tell myself.  I
love temp*mechanics.
 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Seattle Eri » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 04:09:20



> Bottom lines, a) I find it hard to excuse any person, in any position (other
> than *maybe* the janitor) not knowing the first thing about the industry
> they work in. And b) when it comes to clients, "show your work first, show
> your tools afterwards", I guess.

    If my clients INSIST on knowing, I just lie.  It's not like they'll know the
difference.

--
***************************************************
**  Look!  There's ARAT in the middle of "separate"!
****************************************************

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Wade » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:09:58


The main reasons I could think of would be output oriented.
If your output will for any kind of printing CMYK etc.
It makes a big difference
For example you send a PC file for output to the printer and they have only
MACs then the fonts will definitely be an issue.
Some programs do funny things when translating back and forth between
platforms ( yes even Adobe apps ).
Not to mention different print dialogs and options, embedded color profiles
etc. etc...
God forbid you have to do this with Painmaker ( Pagemaker ) ARRRGGGHHHH!!
Now some of these issues are being dealt with by using a PDF workflow which
has it's own issues and is another story.
When accurate output counts ( no type reflow, type substitution of special
characters or colors converting etc.) its best to stay consistent (Mac to
Mac, PC to PC ). This depends on your client ( or service bureau or printer
whatever ) what are they using, what is the output for??
This is primarily 2D graphics stuff I'm talking about here but gives you
some reasons he may have other than the old Mac PC favoritism issues.

Hope this helps

Wade.

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Jimb » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:38:10




> > Bottom lines, a) I find it hard to excuse any person, in any position (other
> > than *maybe* the janitor) not knowing the first thing about the industry
> > they work in. And b) when it comes to clients, "show your work first, show
> > your tools afterwards", I guess.

>     If my clients INSIST on knowing, I just lie.  It's not like they'll know the
> difference.

Well I wouldn't lie.  That's for sure.  What if they hand you a MAC formatted
hard drive with the project details and data?   Anyway he doesn't have to as
he said he's used both and I assume he still has a Mac laying around(?).
 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Wade » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:48:51


PS
I've had to deal first hand with these types of headaches as electronic pre
press supervisor of a large printshop.
Outputing film or plates from files supplied by customers who sometimes used
the stupidest apps to do things ( designing an ad with graphics in MS Word
or MS Publisher etc. etc. ) and If We didn't have Macs and PCs (most service
bureaus have only macs) we would be screwed! Because sometimes you can't
send the disk back to the client and ask for another format.

And yes you can sometimes convert fonts with fontographer etc.
But good luck having them flow the same.

So It really DOES matter on the OUTPUT end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's mostly a convenience issue for your client.
( Try proofreading a whole book to look for type reflows, good luck!!!!! )
Why should he have to rip his hair out ( converting files back and forth )
to output something as it originally looked.
When he can just use a designer that uses what (platform) he does.

From a designers standpoint it really DOES NOT matter Mac or PC.

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Jimb » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 07:39:50



> The main reasons I could think of would be output oriented.
> If your output will for any kind of printing CMYK etc.
> It makes a big difference
> For example you send a PC file for output to the printer and they have only
> MACs then the fonts will definitely be an issue.
> Some programs do funny things when translating back and forth between
> platforms ( yes even Adobe apps ).
> Not to mention different print dialogs and options, embedded color profiles
> etc. etc...
> God forbid you have to do this with Painmaker ( Pagemaker ) ARRRGGGHHHH!!
> Now some of these issues are being dealt with by using a PDF workflow which
> has it's own issues and is another story.
> When accurate output counts ( no type reflow, type substitution of special
> characters or colors converting etc.) its best to stay consistent (Mac to
> Mac, PC to PC ). This depends on your client ( or service bureau or printer
> whatever ) what are they using, what is the output for??
> This is primarily 2D graphics stuff I'm talking about here but gives you
> some reasons he may have other than the old Mac PC favoritism issues.

> Hope this helps

Yup! all true.  I forgot about the print end of using LW...  Silly me!
 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Wade » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 08:05:43


Really for LW rendered output it wouldn't matter much because your rendering
out bitmaps with no vector or font data.
Unless your rendering out big paragraphs of type or something.
Then the font your using to create your models would be different from MAC
to PC.
Or if you had a LW rendering in the background with type laid up on top of
it in Quark or something then it would matter again.
But the print end of things can be a pain!
LW is much more fun!!

Wade

Yup! all true.  I forgot about the print end of using LW...  Silly me!

 
 
 

OT question to you graphics professionals.

Post by Will » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:11:01


Quote:>Well I wouldn't lie.  That's for sure.  What if they hand you a MAC =
>formatted=20
>hard drive with the project details and data?   Anyway he doesn't have =
>to as
>he said he's used both and I assume he still has a Mac laying around(?).

There are free tools to open Mac files from a PC.  Modern macs even use IDE,
just like PC's, so installing the hard drive is only an issue if it's SCSI, and
it's not hard to get a SCSI card for a PC.

Fonts can be converted between the two platforms.  With some care, color
profiles can be kept somewhat sane.  Granted, it may be a little extra work to
lie, but it's certainly doable, and certainly not as much work as using a
platform that you don't consider convenient to the task at hand.

I suggest the OP claim to be a mixed shop of Cray supercomputers and SGI
workstations.  This is likely to impress almost anybody.  In the event that the
client comes to the office, you just need to make an impressive panel with some
blinking lights to serve as the "status console" for the cray.  To fake having
SGI's, just take any old Linux box, and spray paint it a bright color, and open
up some impressive 3D object in a model viewer, and make it rotate.  The
GeForce card you probably have in that Linux box is almost certainly faster
than most SGI boxes would be, BTW...  While the client is staring dumfounded at
your super computer/SGI combo, you can be in the back room, getting the job
done with whatever you see fit, even if it is a beowulf cluster of palm pilots
and Amigas.
------------------
Woooogy
I have to go back in time to pretend to be myself when I tell myself to tell
myself, because I don't remember having been told by myself to tell myself.  I
love temp*mechanics.

 
 
 

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