LW Shave and a haircut dead?

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Geoff_AKN » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:03:59



I just took a little look at www.joealter.com, and there's absolutely NO
mention of Shave for Lightwave. I know his site was down for sometime and
wasn't accepting orders, but now that it's back up, it seems solely Maya
orientated. Has something happened?

--
-- Geoff Smith
--  www.geoff3d.com

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Jeff Kilgro » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:32:01



Quote:> I just took a little look at www.joealter.com, and there's absolutely NO
> mention of Shave for Lightwave. I know his site was down for sometime and
> wasn't accepting orders, but now that it's back up, it seems solely Maya
> orientated. Has something happened?

Yeah, it's currently available for Maya only.  Joe kinda left all the Lightwave
users with an incomplete version that doesn't even work with LW7.5 so there's some
hard feelings there.  At some point, Joe will revisit the LW version in one form or
another, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath.  If you're interesting
in acquiring a hair plugin, I would have to recommend Sasquatch.  In terms of what
it can do, it almost does everything Shave does and is actually better for grass
and shorter fur/hair.  Sasquatch lacks the realism in the dynamics that Shave
provides and doesn't have the instancing capabilities, but Sasqatch can work with
transparent surfaces (Shave can not in its current form) and the upcoming
Sasquatch2 should work with radiosity and other Worley software - especially their
new G2 lighting plugin.

If you happen to already own Shave and you're looking for an update, you should
scan through the group (groups.yahoo.com/lipservice) and you can probably find
which Shave build is best for your version of LW.  If you're using LW7.5, you're
pretty well screwed.

--
- Jeff Kilgroe
- Applied Visual Technologies | DarkScience
- www.appliedvisual.com
- Have a multiprocessor Windows system? Download xCPU, it's free!

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Chris Brizo » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 10:31:48


there isn't really -any- other choice for hair -but- Sasquatch for LW..
can't really include FibreFactory ;)

though here's something to light a fire under Joe's butt... I read some time
ago that one of the cracked versions of Shave -does- work with LW7.5.
Probably not perfectly, but then what crack ever would heh. But still... has
some sort of irony to it dontcha think

Maybe this is Newtek's chance to get a decent fully working intergrated long
hair feature into LW (don't need short hair stuff.. Sasfull does that
perfectly) Infact I'd say its a must, saslite doesn't cut it (for much
actually)

--

Sincerely,
Chris Brizon
www.hades-studios.com
ICQ: 170582108
(remove "yourinhibitions" to reply)
--



> > I just took a little look at www.joealter.com, and there's absolutely NO
> > mention of Shave for Lightwave. I know his site was down for sometime
and
> > wasn't accepting orders, but now that it's back up, it seems solely Maya
> > orientated. Has something happened?

> Yeah, it's currently available for Maya only.  Joe kinda left all the
Lightwave
> users with an incomplete version that doesn't even work with LW7.5 so
there's some
> hard feelings there.  At some point, Joe will revisit the LW version in
one form or
> another, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath.  If you're
interesting
> in acquiring a hair plugin, I would have to recommend Sasquatch.  In terms
of what
> it can do, it almost does everything Shave does and is actually better for
grass
> and shorter fur/hair.  Sasquatch lacks the realism in the dynamics that
Shave
> provides and doesn't have the instancing capabilities, but Sasqatch can
work with
> transparent surfaces (Shave can not in its current form) and the upcoming
> Sasquatch2 should work with radiosity and other Worley software -
especially their
> new G2 lighting plugin.

> If you happen to already own Shave and you're looking for an update, you
should
> scan through the group (groups.yahoo.com/lipservice) and you can probably
find
> which Shave build is best for your version of LW.  If you're using LW7.5,
you're
> pretty well screwed.

> --
> - Jeff Kilgroe
> - Applied Visual Technologies | DarkScience
> - www.appliedvisual.com
> - Have a multiprocessor Windows system? Download xCPU, it's free!

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Jayden Bar » Fri, 08 Nov 2002 11:31:42


.  If you're using LW7.5, you're

Quote:> pretty well screwed.

unfortunately, i know this all too well.  mu puter was always too slow to
get any decent results from shave anyway, but not working with 7.5 killed it
for me and i wont upgrade even if a new version comes along, joe can stick
it unfortunately for all involved!
 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Proffessor Falke » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 01:34:10


What might have happened is that Lightwave decided to bundle Sasquatch
lite with Lightwave, now if you spent a substaintial period developing
a plugins and your market is undermined overnight, what would you do.

As a user of Shave who purchased just before Saslite was bundled, sure
I am pissed off.  But not with Joe and not with Newtek who gave us
more functionality. Thats Life, *happens, just grow up and get on
with it.

If you price your work right the plug-in paid for its self on the
first job you used it for, the same thing happened with both
Hypervoxels, and particle storm so whats the point in crying about it?

On Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:03:59 +1300, "Geoff_AKNZ"


>I just took a little look at www.joealter.com, and there's absolutely NO
>mention of Shave for Lightwave. I know his site was down for sometime and
>wasn't accepting orders, but now that it's back up, it seems solely Maya
>orientated. Has something happened?

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Chris Brizo » Sat, 09 Nov 2002 02:38:22


Well Joe is likely not to care all that much about the LW user base simply
because he made a very lucrative deal with Softimage (and in return he gave
XSI very nice hair features. The LW market wasn't great money, its well
known you don't make a great living just writing plugins. Not to mention
he's had a lot of people, events mess him around, he's put up with a lot, ok
granted his way of conducting business with the LW users could have been
much better aswell so he's not exactly the victim.. I just wouldn't hold
your breath for a new LW Shave. Besides, LW in its current form is unlikely
to get decent intergrated hair dynamics anytime soon, if you want good hair
dynamics, get XSI, if you want good fur, Maya, if you want fur and not too
bad long hair in LW get Sasquatch. There's no money in it for Joe to work on
the LW platform anymore, not unless LW changes a lot.. we'll just have to
see though huh, maybe/hopefully I'm wrong :)

--

Sincerely,
Chris Brizon
www.hades-studios.com
ICQ: 170582108
(remove "yourinhibitions" to reply)
--

> What might have happened is that Lightwave decided to bundle Sasquatch
> lite with Lightwave, now if you spent a substaintial period developing
> a plugins and your market is undermined overnight, what would you do.

> As a user of Shave who purchased just before Saslite was bundled, sure
> I am pissed off.  But not with Joe and not with Newtek who gave us
> more functionality. Thats Life, *happens, just grow up and get on
> with it.

> If you price your work right the plug-in paid for its self on the
> first job you used it for, the same thing happened with both
> Hypervoxels, and particle storm so whats the point in crying about it?

> On Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:03:59 +1300, "Geoff_AKNZ"

> >I just took a little look at www.joealter.com, and there's absolutely NO
> >mention of Shave for Lightwave. I know his site was down for sometime and
> >wasn't accepting orders, but now that it's back up, it seems solely Maya
> >orientated. Has something happened?

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Jeff Kilgro » Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:49:44



Quote:> Well Joe is likely not to care all that much about the LW user base simply
> because he made a very lucrative deal with Softimage (and in return he gave

This is really a common perception of his dealings with Avid/SoftImage.  Although,
I doubt it's as lucrative as people imagine.

Quote:> XSI very nice hair features. The LW market wasn't great money, its well
> known you don't make a great living just writing plugins. Not to mention
> he's had a lot of people, events mess him around, he's put up with a lot, ok
> granted his way of conducting business with the LW users could have been
> much better aswell so he's not exactly the victim.. I just wouldn't hold
> your breath for a new LW Shave. Besides, LW in its current form is unlikely
> to get decent intergrated hair dynamics anytime soon, if you want good hair
> dynamics, get XSI, if you want good fur, Maya, if you want fur and not too
> bad long hair in LW get Sasquatch. There's no money in it for Joe to work on
> the LW platform anymore, not unless LW changes a lot.. we'll just have to
> see though huh, maybe/hopefully I'm wrong :)

Maya, good fur???  LOL.

The problem Joe is having is he's a one-man team trying to support development of
Shave as a SDK on many platforms.  With that Shave SDK, he then creates plugins for
various applications.  For a while, the SDK was called OpenShave and was available
for free to any developer who wanted to create hair for other applications.  Since
then, the SDK has evolved considerably and is no longer available.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes in this matter, some of which a little is
known, the rest is completely up to conjecture.  Joe has tried to contract others
to develop application plugins based on the Shave SDK and not one contractor has
followed through.  I feel his pain in this matter -- reliable and good programmers
are near impossible to come by and then once they are located, chances are, you
can't afford them.  Most developers or development agencies that claim they can
code anything really can't and as soon as you deliver them the official specs for a
project, they never return your call or they try to set unrealistically slow
schedules and high prices.

Joe also owns several patents on hair dynamics methodology and implementation.
However, Pixar and others have been able to develop other methods without
infringing on Joe's patents.

Ultimately, Shave for LW is dead and it looks like the Maya version will probably
suffer the same fate within the somewhat near future.  I would really like to see
Worley acquire some of the Shave tech and incorporate it into Sas2 for dynamics and
other features that Shave handled so well.  Joe has always had nothing but good
things to say about Steve Worley and Joe always conducted himself in a very
professional manner regarding other plugin developers.  I'd love to see an
arrangement between the two to get some of the Shave features into Sas2.  I think
it would also be a good think if an arrangement can be made to allow for current
Shave owners to trade in their Shave dongle for Sas at a nice discount.

I could go on and on about how Joe is really a great guy and I have plenty of
examples of that.  I could also go on and on about how Joe has forsaken us and a
lot of the people who bought Shave recently, were essentially bent over a barrel
and violated.  But I don't have the time or inclination to do so here.  Besides,
the last time I started complaining about paying for broken, beta software
(Messiah:Studio) I got flamed for simply feeling that I've been cheated out of
money.  Although, not to completely change the subject, a lot of others have been
voicing their opinions lately.  And even though Messiah:Animate is nearing
completeion, the other modules are severely incomplete or even non-existent and a
lot of us paid for those too a long, long time ago and have yet to see anything.

With Shave, I don't feel so bad.  It was a plugin, purchased to do hair.  It did
it's job when I needed it and paid for itself 1000 times over.  Sure, I'm upset
that it's essentially dead and non-functional with the latest LW release, but I
still came out ahead.  Sadly, I know many didn't as they bought it for fun or
whatnot.

--
- Jeff Kilgroe
- Applied Visual Technologies | DarkScience
- www.appliedvisual.com
- Have a multiprocessor Windows system? Download xCPU, it's free!

 
 
 

LW Shave and a haircut dead?

Post by Chris Brizo » Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:58:24


all very well said. It is a shame LW is unlikely to get the same hair
features XSI has now (it really is great having it all within the app) so
for all the problems with the LW version, I have to say he pulled through in
a big way with the XSI version

and Maya does have good fur, I swear! :P

--

Sincerely,
Chris Brizon
www.hades-studios.com
ICQ: 170582108
(remove "yourinhibitions" to reply)
--



> > Well Joe is likely not to care all that much about the LW user base
simply
> > because he made a very lucrative deal with Softimage (and in return he
gave

> This is really a common perception of his dealings with Avid/SoftImage.
Although,
> I doubt it's as lucrative as people imagine.

> > XSI very nice hair features. The LW market wasn't great money, its well
> > known you don't make a great living just writing plugins. Not to mention
> > he's had a lot of people, events mess him around, he's put up with a
lot, ok
> > granted his way of conducting business with the LW users could have been
> > much better aswell so he's not exactly the victim.. I just wouldn't hold
> > your breath for a new LW Shave. Besides, LW in its current form is
unlikely
> > to get decent intergrated hair dynamics anytime soon, if you want good
hair
> > dynamics, get XSI, if you want good fur, Maya, if you want fur and not
too
> > bad long hair in LW get Sasquatch. There's no money in it for Joe to
work on
> > the LW platform anymore, not unless LW changes a lot.. we'll just have
to
> > see though huh, maybe/hopefully I'm wrong :)

> Maya, good fur???  LOL.

> The problem Joe is having is he's a one-man team trying to support
development of
> Shave as a SDK on many platforms.  With that Shave SDK, he then creates
plugins for
> various applications.  For a while, the SDK was called OpenShave and was
available
> for free to any developer who wanted to create hair for other

applications.  Since

- Show quoted text -

Quote:> then, the SDK has evolved considerably and is no longer available.

> There's a lot going on behind the scenes in this matter, some of which a
little is
> known, the rest is completely up to conjecture.  Joe has tried to contract
others
> to develop application plugins based on the Shave SDK and not one
contractor has
> followed through.  I feel his pain in this matter -- reliable and good
programmers
> are near impossible to come by and then once they are located, chances
are, you
> can't afford them.  Most developers or development agencies that claim
they can
> code anything really can't and as soon as you deliver them the official
specs for a
> project, they never return your call or they try to set unrealistically
slow
> schedules and high prices.

> Joe also owns several patents on hair dynamics methodology and
implementation.
> However, Pixar and others have been able to develop other methods without
> infringing on Joe's patents.

> Ultimately, Shave for LW is dead and it looks like the Maya version will
probably
> suffer the same fate within the somewhat near future.  I would really like
to see
> Worley acquire some of the Shave tech and incorporate it into Sas2 for
dynamics and
> other features that Shave handled so well.  Joe has always had nothing but
good
> things to say about Steve Worley and Joe always conducted himself in a
very
> professional manner regarding other plugin developers.  I'd love to see an
> arrangement between the two to get some of the Shave features into Sas2.
I think
> it would also be a good think if an arrangement can be made to allow for
current
> Shave owners to trade in their Shave dongle for Sas at a nice discount.

> I could go on and on about how Joe is really a great guy and I have plenty
of
> examples of that.  I could also go on and on about how Joe has forsaken us
and a
> lot of the people who bought Shave recently, were essentially bent over a
barrel
> and violated.  But I don't have the time or inclination to do so here.
Besides,
> the last time I started complaining about paying for broken, beta software
> (Messiah:Studio) I got flamed for simply feeling that I've been cheated
out of
> money.  Although, not to completely change the subject, a lot of others
have been
> voicing their opinions lately.  And even though Messiah:Animate is nearing
> completeion, the other modules are severely incomplete or even
non-existent and a
> lot of us paid for those too a long, long time ago and have yet to see
anything.

> With Shave, I don't feel so bad.  It was a plugin, purchased to do hair.
It did
> it's job when I needed it and paid for itself 1000 times over.  Sure, I'm
upset
> that it's essentially dead and non-functional with the latest LW release,
but I
> still came out ahead.  Sadly, I know many didn't as they bought it for fun
or
> whatnot.

> --
> - Jeff Kilgroe
> - Applied Visual Technologies | DarkScience
> - www.appliedvisual.com
> - Have a multiprocessor Windows system? Download xCPU, it's free!