Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Maze » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 04:12:00



I've been browsing around this NG and around the web for a solution to
this particular problem:  

I have two pictures, a scanned photograph (4x6 picture scanned at 300dpi
on
a Canon FB600U USB scanner) and a picture taken with a Canon Powershot
S30
at full resolution (3 megapixel, 2something x 1something).

Scanned:  My wife's softball team, taken with (what appears to be) 400
ASA film. Picture was taken about 7:00pm in the summer so late day light
and was also taken with a flash.  The shirts, which are red, are fairly
bright
and the white lettering is actually ghosted since it's over exposed a
bit.

Digital:  Two people from my wife's softball team who weren't at the
final game.  The picture was taken at around 6:00 on an overcast day
without a flash.

Someone decided that since I know something about computers that I would
be the one to combine them.  

I've been able to use masking to remove the two missing players and paste
them in as a new layer on the team photo.  

I've also been able to play with burning and dodging to get the shirts
and letters to similar colors/brightness.

The two biggest problems I have:  free rotating and matching graininess.

The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
or matching grain?  

Free rotate:  I had thought PSP7 had a free rotate feature (as in, grab
the selection and rotate).  Is this not the case?  It seems the only way
to do it is to specify values which is not as efficient, IMHO.

Any help on these? I'd be more interested in help with the grain issue.

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Sally Beacha » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 05:09:00



Quote:

> I've been browsing around this NG and around the web for a solution to
> this particular problem:

> I have two pictures, a scanned photograph (4x6 picture scanned at 300dpi
> on
> a Canon FB600U USB scanner) and a picture taken with a Canon Powershot
> S30
> at full resolution (3 megapixel, 2something x 1something).

> Scanned:  My wife's softball team, taken with (what appears to be) 400
> ASA film. Picture was taken about 7:00pm in the summer so late day light
> and was also taken with a flash.  The shirts, which are red, are fairly
> bright
> and the white lettering is actually ghosted since it's over exposed a
> bit.

> Digital:  Two people from my wife's softball team who weren't at the
> final game.  The picture was taken at around 6:00 on an overcast day
> without a flash.

> Someone decided that since I know something about computers that I would
> be the one to combine them.

> I've been able to use masking to remove the two missing players and paste
> them in as a new layer on the team photo.

> I've also been able to play with burning and dodging to get the shirts
> and letters to similar colors/brightness.

> The two biggest problems I have:  free rotating and matching graininess.

> The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
> are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
> or matching grain?

Auto F/X has a plugin, Film Grain, that would work a treat, but it's $50 and
that's a lot of money to pay for a one-shot filter.  If you were interested
in the whole Dream Suite II suite, that would be worth it, otherwise,
probably not.

I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

Quote:

> Free rotate:  I had thought PSP7 had a free rotate feature (as in, grab
> the selection and rotate).  Is this not the case?  It seems the only way
> to do it is to specify values which is not as efficient, IMHO.

Try the Deformation tool.

--
Sally Beacham / www.dizteq.com
www.lvsonline.com / PSP, Filter Frenzy, Xara X
FilterMunky / www.psppower.com
reply to sbeachamATdizteq.com

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Bob Diet » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 06:09:14


To free rotate the selection, use the Deformation tool (between Mangify
and Crop on the Tools Palette.)

To add grain to a selection -
Effects> Noise> Add...>
    Noise: %        * Uniform

Bob


> I've been browsing around this NG and around the web for a solution to
> this particular problem:  

> I have two pictures, a scanned photograph (4x6 picture scanned at 300dpi
> on
> a Canon FB600U USB scanner) and a picture taken with a Canon Powershot
> S30
> at full resolution (3 megapixel, 2something x 1something).

> Scanned:  My wife's softball team, taken with (what appears to be) 400
> ASA film. Picture was taken about 7:00pm in the summer so late day light
> and was also taken with a flash.  The shirts, which are red, are fairly
> bright
> and the white lettering is actually ghosted since it's over exposed a
> bit.

> Digital:  Two people from my wife's softball team who weren't at the
> final game.  The picture was taken at around 6:00 on an overcast day
> without a flash.

> Someone decided that since I know something about computers that I would
> be the one to combine them.  

> I've been able to use masking to remove the two missing players and paste
> them in as a new layer on the team photo.  

> I've also been able to play with burning and dodging to get the shirts
> and letters to similar colors/brightness.

> The two biggest problems I have:  free rotating and matching graininess.

> The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
> are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
> or matching grain?  

> Free rotate:  I had thought PSP7 had a free rotate feature (as in, grab
> the selection and rotate).  Is this not the case?  It seems the only way
> to do it is to specify values which is not as efficient, IMHO.

> Any help on these? I'd be more interested in help with the grain issue.

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by vwluvr » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 06:31:34


post your pictures somewhere (webphotos) or ABComp graphics, with the
'challenge' for someone to 'try doing it for you"
--
vwluvrs
1958 Beetle "ALFie" as in 'alpha' (first)
http://www.squarewindowregistry.org/mycar.php?id=24
1971 Beetle "Betty" as in 'beta' (second)
http://www.squarewindowregistry.org/mycar.php?id=26
Over 300 pictures on TheSamba.com
http://thesamba.com/vw/gallery/gallery.mv?search+vwluvrs
 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Bob Diet » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:10:59





>>The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
>>are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
>>or matching grain?

> Auto F/X has a plugin, Film Grain, that would work a treat, but it's $50 and
> that's a lot of money to pay for a one-shot filter.  If you were interested
> in the whole Dream Suite II suite, that would be worth it, otherwise,
> probably not.

> I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

It would be good to see a 300x300 pixel crop of each image.

Bob

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Rick Savoi » Fri, 06 Sep 2002 22:50:22







>>>The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know
>>>there are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method
>>>for adding or matching grain?

>> Auto F/X has a plugin, Film Grain, that would work a treat, but it's
>> $50 and that's a lot of money to pay for a one-shot filter.  If you
>> were interested in the whole Dream Suite II suite, that would be
>> worth it, otherwise, probably not.

>> I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

> It would be good to see a 300x300 pixel crop of each image.

What do you mean?  Just crop out 300x300 pixel section of
each image or reduce each image to 300x300 pixels?

--
http://www.ricksDFMCrun.org

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Bob Diet » Sat, 07 Sep 2002 00:12:34








>>>>The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know
>>>>there are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method
>>>>for adding or matching grain?

>>>Auto F/X has a plugin, Film Grain, that would work a treat, but it's
>>>$50 and that's a lot of money to pay for a one-shot filter.  If you
>>>were interested in the whole Dream Suite II suite, that would be
>>>worth it, otherwise, probably not.

>>>I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

>>It would be good to see a 300x300 pixel crop of each image.

> What do you mean?  Just crop out 300x300 pixel section of
> each image or reduce each image to 300x300 pixels?

Just crop out a 300x300 pixel section of each image and
post it where we could look at them.

Bob

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Sherr » Sat, 07 Sep 2002 07:37:49


Bob suggesting the add noise to the less grainier part.  If that doesn't
match up the grain enough, perhaps Edge Preserving Smooth on the grainier
portion would balance them out more.

From the menu:

Effects | Noise | Edge Preserving Smooth

I would 'guess' that 2 or 3 should be a nice amount to start with.  Ctrl+Z
to undo if you over/under do it till you get what you like.

Sally mentioned the deform tool to be able to rotate with the handles you
mentioned.  Sometimes I've had to use UNsharp to get my crispness back after
rotating (from the menu and from deform).  If you find you lost some
crispness after rotating:

Effects | Sharpen | Unsharp Mask

I usually start off with 1-60-5.  I don't understand those numbers a whole
lot except what I see (well the 2nd one is obvious [Strength], but the
others boggle me LOL).  The help file states that the first number (Radius)
usually works better at a lower number like 1(ish) for the web, and works
better at a higher number like 2(ish) for print.  That's my interpretation
anyway  8^)

HTH
Sherri


> The two biggest problems I have:  free rotating and matching graininess.

> The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
> are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
> or matching grain?

> Free rotate:  I had thought PSP7 had a free rotate feature (as in, grab
> the selection and rotate).  Is this not the case?  It seems the only way
> to do it is to specify values which is not as efficient, IMHO.

> Any help on these? I'd be more interested in help with the grain issue.

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Kris Zaklik » Sat, 07 Sep 2002 09:13:38



> Bob suggesting the add noise to the less grainier part.  If that doesn't
> match up the grain enough, perhaps Edge Preserving Smooth on the grainier
> portion would balance them out more.

> From the menu:

> Effects | Noise | Edge Preserving Smooth

> I would 'guess' that 2 or 3 should be a nice amount to start with.  Ctrl+Z
> to undo if you over/under do it till you get what you like.

> Sally mentioned the deform tool to be able to rotate with the handles you
> mentioned.  Sometimes I've had to use UNsharp to get my crispness back after
> rotating (from the menu and from deform).  If you find you lost some
> crispness after rotating:

> Effects | Sharpen | Unsharp Mask

> I usually start off with 1-60-5.  I don't understand those numbers a whole
> lot except what I see (well the 2nd one is obvious [Strength], but the
> others boggle me LOL).  The help file states that the first number (Radius)
> usually works better at a lower number like 1(ish) for the web, and works
> better at a higher number like 2(ish) for print.  That's my interpretation
> anyway  8^)

Why don't you read these links for some explanation:
http://campratty.com/2photos/ppages/p01autotips.html
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Xns9273649F9C9DAbball318hmc%4021...
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ak5ffk%242a97%241%40serv2.vsi.ru
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D6652D8.F7DA267A%40jasc.com

- Show quoted text -

> HTH
> Sherri


> > The two biggest problems I have:  free rotating and matching graininess.

> > The scanned picture is grainier than the digital picture.  I know there
> > are methods for removing some grain, but what's a good method for adding
> > or matching grain?

> > Free rotate:  I had thought PSP7 had a free rotate feature (as in, grab
> > the selection and rotate).  Is this not the case?  It seems the only way
> > to do it is to specify values which is not as efficient, IMHO.

> > Any help on these? I'd be more interested in help with the grain issue.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Zaklika              Jasc Software, Inc.                   The



----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Sherr » Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:06:54



> > Effects | Sharpen | Unsharp Mask
> > I usually start off with 1-60-5.  I don't understand those numbers a
whole
> > lot except what I see (well the 2nd one is obvious [Strength], but the
> > others boggle me LOL).  The help file states that the first number
(Radius)
> > usually works better at a lower number like 1(ish) for the web, and
works
> > better at a higher number like 2(ish) for print.  That's my
interpretation
> > anyway  8^)
>Kris Zaklika wrote
> Why don't you read these links for some explanation:
> http://campratty.com/2photos/ppages/p01autotips.html

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Xns9273649F9C9DAbball318hmc%4021...
6.89

Quote:> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ak5ffk%242a97%241%40serv2.vsi.ru
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D6652D8.F7DA267A%40jasc.com

Radius is the distance (in pixels) that the edges that will be sharpened
(increased contrast).  Clipping is the percent of weaker edges that will be
ignored by the unsharpening.  Strength is the amount of contrast applied.

Close?

And unsharp mask produces similiar results as doing the things in this
article:
http://www.astropix.com/HTML/J_DIGIT/USM.HTM  ?

I was unable to even come close to the image on the right.  I used their
first 2 images, did my arithmetic (subtract, all channels, bias 0, divisor
1).....then lowered brightness/contrast on the blurred image and did
arithmetic again.  Then I undid my brightness/contrast, blurred it more and
did arithmetic....then lowered brightness/contrast on the blurred image and
did arithmetic.  I FINALLY tried unsharp, which came out better looking to
my eyes, but still didn't look like their end result.  Well at least I
understood my settings better to know how I was affecting what *S*

Sherri

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Rick Savoi » Mon, 09 Sep 2002 01:50:15


[posted and mailed]





\
>>>>I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

>>>It would be good to see a 300x300 pixel crop of each image.

>> What do you mean?  Just crop out 300x300 pixel section of
>> each image or reduce each image to 300x300 pixels?

> Just crop out a 300x300 pixel section of each image and
> post it where we could look at them.

> Bob

Bob,

Posted at:

http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image9.jpg (scanned)

http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image10.jpg (camera)

I wasn't extremely careful with the crop so I just
grabbed a couple of sections.

As far as merging the two images, I wish that I had
been there for the second set of picture taking.  The
remaining two ladies are not posed in ANY way close to
the other group making the merge even more difficult.

I can upload the complete originals if you want.

Thanks,
Rick

--
http://www.ricksDFMCrun.org

 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Kris Zaklik » Mon, 09 Sep 2002 02:53:38



> [posted and mailed]






> \
> >>>>I'm still looking for a more economical solution for you.

> >>>It would be good to see a 300x300 pixel crop of each image.

> >> What do you mean?  Just crop out 300x300 pixel section of
> >> each image or reduce each image to 300x300 pixels?

> > Just crop out a 300x300 pixel section of each image and
> > post it where we could look at them.

> > Bob

> Bob,

> Posted at:

> http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image9.jpg (scanned)

> http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image10.jpg (camera)

> I wasn't extremely careful with the crop so I just
> grabbed a couple of sections.

> As far as merging the two images, I wish that I had
> been there for the second set of picture taking.  The
> remaining two ladies are not posed in ANY way close to
> the other group making the merge even more difficult.

> I can upload the complete originals if you want.

For me at least, it's very hard to comment without seeing the
complete images. Looking at your very first post, I'd say you
are setting about this in a sub-optimal way. This is because
you are dealing with your problems piecemeal instead of
getting a good match between the images to start with. Your
biggest challenges are to get matching skintones, matching
contrast and matching sharpness/grain. After that you can
tweak individual elements.

In my view Image9 is too green and Image10 is too red.
Without the full images, the following are just some rough
suggestions. Each image needs a small preliminary change with
Colors > Adjust > Red/Green/Blue. Then Image9 needs a contrast
fix with Colors > Histogram Functions > Histogram Adjustment.
Next remove grain with Effects > Noise > Edge Preserving Smooth
at 2. Do Effects > Sharpen > Sharpen a few times. Now you
can use your best friend, Effects > Enhance Photo > Manual
Color Correction. As the first step of this, duplicate Image9
and blur it so you can sample average colors from it. In
MCC select the top face of Image10 and set a color for it
by sampling the left face from the blurred version of Image9.
Having done this you needs to degrade Image10 to match
Image9. Duplicate the layer, add Noise, Gaussian Blur the
noise and set the Blend Mode to Luminance. Adjust layer
transparency to taste. After merging, use Histogram Adjustment
to match the contrast of Image10 to Image9. Depending on
exactly how you did all this you should have two images with
a much closer look and feel to each other. Now you can do a
second round of matching one image to the next before starting
to cut and paste things. Easy things like the shirts can be
matched later with Retouch in Color To Target mode. You'll
find it helpful to double the size of your images for the
cutting and pasting. Make sure you use layers for pasting so
you can adjust components of the image independently of each
other and blend them in nicely with a soft Eraser. After you
have everything to your satisfaction you can merge and resize
back down for final sharpening and tweaking.

Quote:> Thanks,
> Rick

> --
> http://www.ricksDFMCrun.org

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Zaklika              Jasc Software, Inc.                   The



----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

Suggestions for combining scanned and digital picture wrt similar grain

Post by Bob Diet » Mon, 09 Sep 2002 05:48:39



> Bob,

> Posted at:

> http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image9.jpg (scanned)

> http://home.attbi.com/~savoia/Image10.jpg (camera)

> I wasn't extremely careful with the crop so I just
> grabbed a couple of sections.

> As far as merging the two images, I wish that I had
> been there for the second set of picture taking.  The
> remaining two ladies are not posed in ANY way close to
> the other group making the merge even more difficult.

> I can upload the complete originals if you want.

To appoximately match the grain -
   Open Image10 and duplicate the background layer.
   Effects> Noise> Add...> 15% Uniform
   Effects> Blur> Gaussian Blur...> Radius: 0.75
   Layers> Properties...> Blend mode: Luminance and Opacity 80.

Then realize that only gets you part way there. As Kris pointed
out the color temperature and contrast of the images don't match
well and will need to be corrected. To give good directions
regarding matching the colors, it would be best to see the
whole images. However if the images are very large, it probably
isn't necessary to see them at full scale. Images of approximately
800x600 pixels in size should plenty large enough to judge
color. If you want to post larger images that's fine too,

Here's a modest effort at matching color, contrast and grain.
http://abe.midco.net/bobdietz2/Temp/MatchGrain.jpg

Bob

 
 
 

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Anyone can point me to any recent work done on this topic besides Adi
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boundary conditions".

Anyone that is not exactly sure what i'm talking about:

http://www.math.tau.ac.il/~levin/adi/

Also, it does'nt have to be about subdivision exacty, any unusual breps or
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