resolution 4 broadcats?

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by marc cardwe » Mon, 29 Jan 1996 04:00:00



hello,

a friend has approached me about creating a 30 sec. 3d animated commercial
for his business. i have read the FAQ for comp.animation, and while it
talked about resolution, when dealing w/ broadcast, it said make the res.
as close the the final viewing size as possible. well, televisions come in
all sizes, so my first question is:

1. what is a good choice for resolution when creating animation for television?

2. if someone can give me an idea of res. then i can do the math and find
out approx. disk space for 720 frames of animation (is 720 correct? 24 fps
x 30 sec. = 720)

3. i know that i can render the animation to the disk and certain cards
can convert to broadcast video, but are there places that i can send  say
a DAT tape, and they will get it to video for me, for a fee?

4. i use macs, and know that the box i have is not up to the task, any mac
users out ther know if a kick ass mac can be leased for a month or 2?

5. is it even remotly possible that the animation will not need some kind
of editing before going to tape? should i plan on getting something like
after affects to do work like that?

6. lastly, for those of you who do work like this for a living, what kind
of time would it take you to redner 30 sec. of animation? please state
what kind of box you use. and i know that rendering times depend on
complexity, shadows, lights, etc. i am looking for general guidelines.

thanks for any help you can give. this may be too big to handle, but i hope not.

--

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Avi Pilos » Fri, 02 Feb 1996 04:00:00


: 1. what is a good choice for resolution when creating animation for television?

This is a very tough question, because nobody agrees on the answer.
Firstly, it depends on whether it's PAL or NTSC. I've heard of people
getting away with 640x480 for NTSC, but I wouldn't try it.

I know that with PAL, you're talking about something along the lines of
750x570, but this is rough. I would call up a TV station and ask THEM
what they would expect.

: 2. if someone can give me an idea of res. then i can do the math and find
: out approx. disk space for 720 frames of animation (is 720 correct? 24 fps
: x 30 sec. = 720)

NTSC TV is 30fps, PAL TV is 25fps, film is 24fps.
Expect over a meg for an uncompressed frame.

: 5. is it even remotly possible that the animation will not need some kind
: of editing before going to tape? should i plan on getting something like
: after affects to do work like that?

It's very possible that it could come directly out of renderman. Usually,
post effects are used when combining with live video. If this is what
you're doing, you will need some advanced s/w & h/w. If it is a purely
CGI ad, then it all depends on how much effort you put into the rendering.
Some effects are easier in post, but almost all are possible within
renderman.

It would save you some hassles if you could ensure it came out as the
final edit. You might want to use traditional stuff like storyboarding
(if you don't yet), and "edit" in your head.

Normal films have a very high ratio of footage fillmed to footage used.
Most computer artists don't do this (ie; render things then edit them
out), but it would be easier to achieve the final edit by storyboarding
and deciding what you DEFINITELY want in the scene etc...

: 6. lastly, for those of you who do work like this for a living, what kind
: of time would it take you to redner 30 sec. of animation? please state
: what kind of box you use. and i know that rendering times depend on
: complexity, shadows, lights, etc. i am looking for general guidelines.

Very tough question, because it depends on the scene, as you say. I have
not used renderman (don't ask why I'm reading the group :), but I hear it
is slow.

I hear that Toy Story was taking up to 8 hours per frame, which knocked
me out. I would allow for at least 1hr per frame on a moderately fast
machine (SGI Indy), and more to be safe. Then again, I could be way off.

: thanks for any help you can give. this may be too big to handle, but i hope not.

Make an effort even if it seems big. It's the only way you'll get a start...

Good luck, too :)

###################################################################


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Quote:> A seminar on Time Travel will be held two weeks ago.


 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by reeves matthew dav » Sat, 03 Feb 1996 04:00:00



: NTSC TV is 30fps, PAL TV is 25fps, film is 24fps.

i'm not sure about the other two but NTSC isn't exactly 30fps it's slightly
less, and if you're syncing sound effects to your animation it can cause you
no end of trouble.

: I hear that Toy Story was taking up to 8 hours per frame, which knocked
: me out. I would allow for at least 1hr per frame on a moderately fast

was this machine hours or physical hours?

--
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for your FREE set of complete plans to dominate the world, send $20,000,000
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resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Gary Reism » Sun, 04 Feb 1996 04:00:00





> : 1. what is a good choice for resolution when creating animation for
television?

> This is a very tough question, because nobody agrees on the answer.
> Firstly, it depends on whether it's PAL or NTSC. I've heard of people
> getting away with 640x480 for NTSC, but I wouldn't try it.

-----

WRONG!!!! VERY WRONG!!!
640x480 is perfectly fine for doing broadcast animations in NTSC.
I do animations every day for broadcast network TV,.and 640x480 is ALL I
ever work in!

----

Quote:> I know that with PAL, you're talking about something along the lines of
> 750x570, but this is rough. I would call up a TV station and ask THEM
> what they would expect.

---

...no need to call up a TV station.

----

Quote:> : 2. if someone can give me an idea of res. then i can do the math and find
> : out approx. disk space for 720 frames of animation (is 720 correct? 24 fps
> : x 30 sec. = 720)

> NTSC TV is 30fps, PAL TV is 25fps, film is 24fps.
> Expect over a meg for an uncompressed frame.

-----

Incorrect again,. NTSC is 29.97 fps (but 30fps will do just fine!),and
expect each uncompressed frame to be closer to 900k, unless of course
you'll be rendering an Alpha channell (for later compositing), that'll add
some more to a frame.
Although if you're working on a Mac,.and you'll be exporting as a QT
movie, export using the Animator QT codec, set at Most,.and you might see
some major space savings. I've had some 7 sec animation QT movies reduce
down to only 14 Megs (it's compression only in the terms that it compares
frames,..so image quality remains IDENTICAL to original quality)
One other note, is that if you intend to make your animamations
extra,extra smooth in motion, you'll want to render off your animation at
60fps,.and convert it to fields later on.

----

Quote:

> : 5. is it even remotly possible that the animation will not need some kind
> : of editing before going to tape? should i plan on getting something like
> : after affects to do work like that?

> It's very possible that it could come directly out of renderman. Usually,
> post effects are used when combining with live video. If this is what
> you're doing, you will need some advanced s/w & h/w. If it is a purely
> CGI ad, then it all depends on how much effort you put into the rendering.
> Some effects are easier in post, but almost all are possible within
> renderman.

----

If you have a Mac,...you'll definately want to get After Effects, which is
capable of many post effects and edits,.which I also happen to use daily.
I've used it countless times to composite my animations with additional
elements,..RenderMan is great for making 3d elements,. After Effects is
great for everything else,..and is the finest 2d animation and compositing
apps out there.
-----

Quote:> It would save you some hassles if you could ensure it came out as the
> final edit. You might want to use traditional stuff like storyboarding
> (if you don't yet), and "edit" in your head.

> Normal films have a very high ratio of footage fillmed to footage used.
> Most computer artists don't do this (ie; render things then edit them
> out), but it would be easier to achieve the final edit by storyboarding
> and deciding what you DEFINITELY want in the scene etc...

----

Quote:

> : 6. lastly, for those of you who do work like this for a living, what kind
> : of time would it take you to redner 30 sec. of animation? please state
> : what kind of box you use. and i know that rendering times depend on
> : complexity, shadows, lights, etc. i am looking for general guidelines.

> Very tough question, because it depends on the scene, as you say. I have
> not used renderman (don't ask why I'm reading the group :), but I hear it
> is slow.

> I hear that Toy Story was taking up to 8 hours per frame, which knocked
> me out. I would allow for at least 1hr per frame on a moderately fast
> machine (SGI Indy), and more to be safe. Then again, I could be way off.

---

Not way off,..at least not for a complex scene,..but I've done many
RenderMan animations,.and although not too complex,..I've never gone over
15 min a frame.
using a PowerMac 8100.

Gary Reisman
NBC

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Avi Pilos » Mon, 05 Feb 1996 04:00:00



: i'm not sure about the other two but NTSC isn't exactly 30fps it's slightly
: less, and if you're syncing sound effects to your animation it can cause you
: no end of trouble.

I didn't know that. I thought the whole point was that it was exactly
30fps and designed that way. Good to know...

: : I hear that Toy Story was taking up to 8 hours per frame, which knocked
: : me out. I would allow for at least 1hr per frame on a moderately fast

: was this machine hours or physical hours?

This is only what I heard from a friend, so I could be wrong, but I heard
that some frames were taking up to 8 hours (in real, physical hours) to
render on one machine (they used SUNs).

###################################################################


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Quote:> Welcome to Hell...Here's your accordion.

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Avi Pilos » Mon, 05 Feb 1996 04:00:00


: > This is a very tough question, because nobody agrees on the answer.
: > Firstly, it depends on whether it's PAL or NTSC. I've heard of people
: > getting away with 640x480 for NTSC, but I wouldn't try it.
: -----

: WRONG!!!! VERY WRONG!!!
: 640x480 is perfectly fine for doing broadcast animations in NTSC.
: I do animations every day for broadcast network TV,.and 640x480 is ALL I
: ever work in!

I wouldn't say WRONG so harshly - I've heard from people in the trade
that 640x480 is USABLE, but often considered a little "iffy". If it works
for you, cool - I'm just quoting what I heard.

: Not way off,..at least not for a complex scene,..but I've done many
: RenderMan animations,.and although not too complex,..I've never gone over
: 15 min a frame.
: using a PowerMac 8100.

Yep - it all depends on how complex your scene is. As can be scene,
15mins to 8hrs is a good approximation :)

###################################################################


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Quote:> Welcome to Hell...Here's your accordion.

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Paul M Sargen » Tue, 06 Feb 1996 04:00:00






> > : 1. what is a good choice for resolution when creating animation for
> television?

> > This is a very tough question, because nobody agrees on the answer.
> > Firstly, it depends on whether it's PAL or NTSC. I've heard of people
> > getting away with 640x480 for NTSC, but I wouldn't try it.
> -----

I used to work for a company making Digital Video equipment for TV broadcast
studios. I'll give you the figures that are defined for digital video (They're
in some standard, but I can't remember which.)

PAL (UK and most of Europe, lots of varients around the world)

720 Active Luminence Samples per Line (read as pixels)
576 Active Lines

NTSC (North America, Japan?)

720 Active Luminence Samples per Line (read as pixels)
487 Active Lines (this can be slightly different. I think this is Maximum)

SECAM (the system used in France & some Eastern Block countries) is the same as
PAL.

Paul
--
*******************************************************************************

Microelectronics,
Brunel University, London U.K.
*******************************************************************************

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Oren Jac » Tue, 06 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Hold on a second cowboy...

    : WRONG!!!! VERY WRONG!!!
    : 640x480 is perfectly fine for doing broadcast animations in NTSC.
    : I do animations every day for broadcast network TV,.and 640x480 is ALL I
    : ever work in!

There are many of us that render at 720x486 with a pixel aspect ratio
of .9.  Accoms work that way.  You'll notice that (720 * 0.9) / 486 yields
a screen aspect ratio of 1.33333 which is what NTSC is.  

With another way to skin this particular cat,
oreo

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by reeves matthew dav » Tue, 06 Feb 1996 04:00:00


: WRONG!!!! VERY WRONG!!!
: 640x480 is perfectly fine for doing broadcast animations in NTSC.
: I do animations every day for broadcast network TV,.and 640x480 is ALL I
: ever work in!

welp, what works fine for you isn't always going to work fine for the next guy.
I've seen specs on some equipment that runs between 700x500 and 800x600 (i don't
remember the exact numbers right now), and some people swear by that resolution.

the best rule i've found is:
  Experiment with your equipment, and use what's best for you.

: Incorrect again,. NTSC is 29.97 fps (but 30fps will do just fine!),and

actually the framerate under NTSC isn't exactly 29.97 fps, and if you're doing
an extensive animation (by extensive, i mean long)then you should find the NTSC
standard and use the exact numbers.

30fps may or may not work out for an animation as long as 30secs.  It depends
on how accurately you want your sound effects to be synced (at the end of the
animation you're going to have accumulated 30sec-(30sec*30fps)/29.97fps = .03
sec of error).  This assumes that you are applying a fixed soundtrack to an
animation, if you record the sound after the animation is done, then you don't
get any error...

(i'm putting so much emphasis on the importance of rendering to the correct
framerate because i've got a friend who did a 5 min animation at 30fps and then
had to fudge things because of the massive discrepencies in time)

: One other note, is that if you intend to make your animamations
: extra,extra smooth in motion, you'll want to render off your animation at
: 60fps,.and convert it to fields later on.

fields are really important when fast motion is used (although the composited
frames look really screwey on a normal computer monitor), i'm not sure how to do
it from within renderman, but you don't have to render at 60fps.  You can render
half of each frame (every other line) and composite the frames.

cya!
-matt

--
http://eta.cs.wisc.edu/~depe
for your FREE set of complete plans to dominate the world, send $20,000,000
to the address of the third person to quote this signature

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Agrap » Wed, 07 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:>: > This is a very tough question, because nobody agrees on the answer.

: > Firstly, it depends on whether it's PAL or NTSC. I've heard of people
: > getting away with 640x480 for NTSC, but I wouldn't try it.
: -----

: WRONG!!!! VERY WRONG!!!
: 640x480 is perfectly fine for doing broadcast animations in NTSC.
: I do animations every day for broadcast network TV,.and 640x480 is ALL I
: ever work in!<

640 x 480 produces work that does very well, especially if you realize
that when most people finally get the signal, it's degraded much further
by the transmission.

Typically studios work their resolution at D-1 levels, which is 645 x 768
for NTSC. (hope I rmembered that ratio right).  Higher quality, and it
shows.  If you can get to this level, I'd recommend it.

AG

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Agrap » Wed, 07 Feb 1996 04:00:00


Quote:>fields are really important when fast motion is used (although the

composited
frames look really screwey on a normal computer monitor), i'm not sure how
to do
it from within renderman, but you don't have to render at 60fps.  You can
render
half of each frame (every other line) and composite the frames.<

Most people recommend the 60FPS and then use Flame, After Effects, or
something similar to field render the images.  never heard of rendering
every other line in prman.  Is this possible?

AG


Agrapha Productions--visual effects consulting
http://users.aol.com/agrapha/index.html
"Technology won't save us."  -G. Lucas

 
 
 

resolution 4 broadcats?

Post by Dan Ly » Wed, 07 Feb 1996 04:00:00



says...

Quote:>: Incorrect again,. NTSC is 29.97 fps (but 30fps will do just fine!),and

>actually the framerate under NTSC isn't exactly 29.97 fps, and if
>you're doing an extensive animation (by extensive, i mean long)
>then you should find the NTSC standard and use the exact numbers.

We're getting way off topic (RenderMan, in case the headers aren't getting
read!) 'cause someone doesn't just post the right info. Therefore:

NTSC monochrome started out as 30 frames per second. To fit in the extra color
information, they had to stretch the signal out a bit, but not so long that it
didn't*up existing monochrome receivers. The rate is approximately 29.97.

The SMPTE drop frame timecode encodes this as follows: The first two frames (30
frames per second, 60 fields per second, so this is 4 fields) are dropped from
each minute except for the minutes divisible by 10, Therefore 00:59:29.5
(MM:SS:frame.field) is immediately followed by 01:00:02.0 but 09:59:29.5 is
immediately followed by 10:00:00.0 (The representation of the field, that final
.0 or .5, may vary from device to device or may not even be accessible).

Dan

 
 
 

1. Re(4): resolution 4 broadcats?



m>
m> : NTSC TV is 30fps, PAL TV is 25fps, film is 24fps.
m>
m> i'm not sure about the other two but NTSC isn't exactly 30fps it's slightly
m> less, and if you're syncing sound effects to your animation it can cause
you
m> no end of trouble.
m>
m>

(1)
The exact Framerate for PAL is 25 frames a Second, but every frame contains 2
pictures in
it - this is called interlaced (1 horiz line from frame one, 2nd line from
frame two, 3rd
line from frame one etc.) so you really get an animation framerate of 50
frames per second!)

so you have to render an framerate of 50 fps to get an really smooth animation
for tv.
(btw. you can setup the renderman to double every horiz. pixelline - so you
don't have
the double renderingtime! )

The same is true in the NTSC - World, now you have to go with 60 frames per
second for
an high quality motion output, it maybe some less like 59.xxx but this will be
only visible after
some running time....

(2)
the PAL Resoloution is 768x576 in quad-pixel, but there are is also an ABEKAS
Standard: 720 x 540
the NTSC Resoloution:  640x480 in quad-pixel, but there are is also an ABEKAS
Standard: 648 x 486

(you should use the abekas formats only if you plan to output the animation to
these kind
of Framerecorders)

(3)
for cinema the framerate is really 24 frames per second - no interlacing or
other kinds.
you have no limit with your render format, (if your output filmrecorder can
manage it :-)

be shure to apply some motionblurring (shutter times like real film cameras)
here....

btw. does someone know an service provider who takes my animations as
QT-Movies etc.
and puts them on 35 or 16 mm cinema format ?

hope this helps - & greetins from austria!

Holger Watermann - Visual Data Research - Linz/Austria

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8. Video and Film Size and Resolutions Re: Video and film size and resolution