NS Basic for Palm

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Phil Yeado » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Hi,

Has anyone tried NS Basic/Palm yet, the web site
http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/ is very intriguing, but I would like to 'try
before I buy'. Unfortunately there is no demo available.

Anyone have any knowledge of this product.

Thanks in advance

TTFN

--
Phil Yeadon

(remove 'nospam' to e-mail)

!!!Purple Pride!!!

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Bill Marc » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00


On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:37:42 -0000, "Phil Yeadon"


>Hi,

>Has anyone tried NS Basic/Palm yet, the web site
>http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/ is very intriguing, but I would like to 'try
>before I buy'. Unfortunately there is no demo available.

>Anyone have any knowledge of this product.

It needs a runtime, which is undesireable.

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by William J. Leary Jr » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00




> >Has anyone tried NS Basic/Palm yet, the web site
> >http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/ is very intriguing, but I would like to 'try
> >before I buy'. Unfortunately there is no demo available.

> >Anyone have any knowledge of this product.

> It needs a runtime, which is undesireable.

Same drawback as CASL.  CASL, though, offers you the option to compile to C
and run it through GCC or Code Warrior and generate a standalone
application.

The runtime CAN be an advantage if you're running a lot of apps written
using a particular runtime since it spreads the expense of the runtime code
across multiple applications.  Sort of the approach taken by HackMaster.
But for a single application, it can be a problem.

    - Bill

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by MC » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Bill, Does CASL create the project files and stuff for CodeWarrior?

Quote:

> Same drawback as CASL.  CASL, though, offers you the option to compile to C
> and run it through GCC or Code Warrior and generate a standalone
> application.

> The runtime CAN be an advantage if you're running a lot of apps written
> using a particular runtime since it spreads the expense of the runtime code
> across multiple applications.  Sort of the approach taken by HackMaster.
> But for a single application, it can be a problem.

>     - Bill

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NS Basic for Palm

Post by Bill Marc » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00


On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:04:19 GMT, "William J. Leary Jr."




>> >Has anyone tried NS Basic/Palm yet, the web site
>> >http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/ is very intriguing, but I would like to 'try
>> >before I buy'. Unfortunately there is no demo available.

>> >Anyone have any knowledge of this product.

>> It needs a runtime, which is undesireable.

>Same drawback as CASL.  CASL, though, offers you the option to compile to C
>and run it through GCC or Code Warrior and generate a standalone
>application.

True.  To date it has not proven itself.  Take a look at Quartus
Forth, native code compilation, fast execution.

Quote:>The runtime CAN be an advantage if you're running a lot of apps written
>using a particular runtime since it spreads the expense of the runtime code
>across multiple applications.  Sort of the approach taken by HackMaster.
>But for a single application, it can be a problem.

This has yet to be taken advantage of.  No one has to date produced a
series of programs rolled around a Run Time.
 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Ron Nichols » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00



> I agree that a demo is necessary (that's why I bought CASL...tried it for a
> month and got to kick the tires a bit before putting down money). I know
> that there is a 30 day money back, but then you get into RMA and wasted
> shipping costs.

HotPaw (cbasPad Pro) Basic also has a 30 day free trial mode.  It's
not a compiler; but it is useful if you want to actually be able to
write BASIC programs while away from the PC.  Simple forms, database
access, color graphics, math and financial functions supported.

  <http://www.hotpaw.com/rhn/hotpaw>  

IMHO. YMMV.
--
Ron Nicholson   -       HotPaw
#include <canonical_disclaimer>  // only my own opinions. etc.

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by William J. Leary Jr » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:

> Bill, Does CASL create the project files and stuff for CodeWarrior?

I don't know.  And a quick check of their site ( http://www.caslsoft.com/ )
didn't throw the answer in my face, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
For my purposes, I'm not interested in the Compile-To-C option, so I never
investigated it much.

    - Bill

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by William J. Leary Jr » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00



> On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:04:19 GMT, "William J. Leary Jr."

> >Same drawback as CASL.  CASL, though, offers you the option to compile to
C
> >and run it through GCC or Code Warrior and generate a standalone
> >application.

> True.  To date it has not proven itself.  Take a look at Quartus
> Forth, native code compilation, fast execution.

Precisely one of the things that led me to investigate Quartus.  Very nicely
done and I like Forth a lot as an ideal, but with so many years of
Pascal/C/Basic/Oberon/you-name-it behind me I'm having a hard time making
the mental switch to Forth.  One big advange of Quartus is that I've got it
on my Palm so I can tinker whenever I have a few minutes.

Quote:> >The runtime CAN be an advantage if you're running a lot of apps written
> > ((..omitted..))

> This has yet to be taken advantage of.  No one has to date produced a
> series of programs rolled around a Run Time.

In the olden days (QuickBASIC/MSBASIC) this was used to advantage for
applications which were made up of a series of sub-applications.  The CHAIN
statement in BASIC permitted the various sub-programs to take advantage of
the single common runtime.  QB went even further allowing you to compile
unrelated programs that used the common runtime.  Some C compilers used
overlays to good advantage to do similar things.  I wrote a rather large
accounting system that made extensive use of C overlays.

It's a concept that seems to have fallen aside with the advent of
larger/cheaper memories.  And, of course, it can be argued that the various
DLL's for systems such as Visual Basic and common loadable libraries under
some UNIX versions (Sun being the one I'm familiar with) continue the
concept.  Although, in their cases, I'd say the motivation is not really to
save disk space or memory.

    - Bill

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Ran » Mon, 13 Mar 2000 04:00:00



Quote:> Although, in their cases, I'd say the motivation is not really to
> save disk space or memory.

I'm not sure how old the tradition is in the *nix world,  so I can't say
whether the 128K multi-user systems of the Good Old Days were a factor.  

But conserving memory definitely *was* a major selling point for Windoze
and OS/2 back in the days when entire systems had less RAM than the
typical video board of today.

One could certainly argue that a lot of the Palm OS (especially the user
interface routines) is much like a "shared library".  It's a very
valuable tool,  if you can get lots of developers to agree on the same
set of libraries.

The main thing I'd worry about is upward- and downward-compatibility.
If the API of the shared library isn't well-designed,  it's very easy to
wind up in a Palm equivalent of "DLL Hell".

Ran

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by William J. Leary Jr » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00




> > Although, in their cases, I'd say the motivation is not really to
> > save disk space or memory.

> I'm not sure how old the tradition is in the *nix world,  so I can't say
> whether the 128K multi-user systems of the Good Old Days were a factor.

Yes, I agree.  That just isn't quite what I meant.  MS and Sun (the two I'm
most familiar with) kept pushing for more RAM, more cycles, and more pixels
each release.  That's what I meant by saving space wasn't their primary
motivation.

Quote:> But conserving memory definitely *was* a major selling point for Windoze
> and OS/2 back in the days when entire systems had less RAM than the
> typical video board of today.

My memory may be fuzzy here, but my recollection was that this wasn't a
major selling point for Windows, though I do recall OS/2 making points about
how (comparitively) disk and memory (and cycles) conservative it was
compared to Windows.  As I recall my OS/2 beta's always used about the same
disk/memory as the then-current Windows release, then the release version of
OS/2 shaved 10% or more off it's disk/RAM footprint.  Performance, to me at
least, always seemed better than Windows.

My recollection for Windows requirements was that the "recommended" system
was always just beyond the common machines most people owned, and the
"minimum" systems was always just a little behind the curve for common
machines.

On a related subject, I've just recently heard that different Palms have
different performance characteristics.  Well, I always knew the Pilot 1000
was slower due to the memory configuration, but I'd assumed (apparently
incorrectly) that the P5000 and beyond were all the same.  I'm talking
performance here, of course, not RAM or ROM size.  Is there a performance
chart available somewhere?  Or are they all close enough that I can pretty
much ignore it as a developer?

Quote:> One could certainly argue that a lot of the Palm OS (especially the user
> interface routines) is much like a "shared library".  It's a very
> valuable tool,  if you can get lots of developers to agree on the same
> set of libraries.

Agreed on both points.

Quote:> The main thing I'd worry about is upward- and downward-compatibility.
> If the API of the shared library isn't well-designed,  it's very easy to
> wind up in a Palm equivalent of "DLL Hell".

Agreed again.

    - Bill

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Neal Bridge » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00






[snip]
> On a related subject, I've just recently heard that different Palms have
> different performance characteristics.  Well, I always knew the Pilot 1000
> was slower due to the memory configuration, but I'd assumed (apparently
> incorrectly) that the P5000 and beyond were all the same.  I'm talking
> performance here, of course, not RAM or ROM size.  Is there a performance
> chart available somewhere?  Or are they all close enough that I can pretty
> much ignore it as a developer?

Check out Benchmark at <http://www.quartus.net/products/benchmark>.  It
shows the relative performance of a range of Palm devices, and you can bench
your own.  It's quite accurate.

With the V as a 100% baseline, performance ranges from 43% (the old 512K
Pilot) to 205% (the new IIIc with CruiseControl).

--
Neal Bridges
<http://www.quartus.net> Quartus Handheld Software!

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Jim Coo » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:> Has anyone tried NS Basic/Palm yet, the web site
> http://www.veryComputer.com/, but I would like to 'try
> before I buy'. Unfortunately there is no demo available.

[I'm cc-ing NSBasic support with this message because of the problem I'm
having at the end of the email, and with the hopes that customer
comments will help them polish the package: it has great potential.]

As has been mentioned, it does require a 78k runtime module, and
optionally the 55k mathlib.prc that so many others seem to use.

I bought the package. It has a 30-day money-back guarantee.

I think it is a little bit clumsy as far as the user interface goes.
Each time you place a button, for example, NSBasic creates it the same
size. I have to resize every button, instead of creating them the
correct size in the first place.

I feel that there are a lot of mouse clicks that I have to do. It seems
to take too much time there, too. I've used MSVB a lot, and I feel more
clumsy and slower with NSBasic, even counting my learning curve issues.

One thing that annoys the *out of me is that every time I compile,
it dings the bell. Turn off the damn speaker. Don't pop up that type of
box. Something, for crying out loud.

The paper manual is brief, but complete. The online help seems to be a
duplication of the manual. The example code won't work without tweaking
unless you install in the default directory (it doesn't take much to
tweak it; notepad will do).

Each time I bring up a code window, a entire new window is stuck on the
screen, instead of a child window. That means that if I'm doing the
famous "compile / fix syntax" loop, I end up going all over the screen
to chase the code windows around. You can't compile if a code window is
open. And every time I compile, error or not, I get that damn message
box that beeps.

The real question would be: is it worth the $100? I don't think I'm
going to send it back, because it will give me the ability to do a bunch
of stuff more easily than any other way I have. I guess for me, it is
worth it. However, I've bought numerous other programs for the Palm that
seemed to have a higher usage/cost ratio. It's worth it, but I'm a bit
dissapointed in the annoying features that I'm going to put up with.

The version number I'm using is 1.0, and it feels like it.

The web site has a quote: "Like having the Visual Basic IDE for Palm
OS!" - Andreas Schueepp, beta tester.

I think that is extremely over-stated. There are certainly similarities,
but VB is WAY more polished, in my opinion. To actually compare NSBasic
IDE head-to-head with MSVB will make NSBasic look terrible. It should be
judged on how easy it is to use, not compared to MSVB.

Here's a problem report:

One other thing I ran into I can't explain yet. I had been trying to
write a calculator that operates using feet and inches directly. I had
been compiling it and downloading to POSE. Suddenly, I started getting a
pop-up message saying:

-----First box--------
"NSBasic" 1.0 reports "DataMgr.c, Line:5304, DmWriteCheck failed". If
this is the latest version of "NSBasic", please report this to the
application author.

------Second box-------
"NSBasic" 1.0 reports "DataMgr.c, Line:5387, Write to invalid rec". If
this is the latest version of "NSBasic", please report this to the
application author.

It goes back and forth seemingly forever (I haven't had the patience to
see just how many times I have to click 'Continue').

I can no longer run my application. I didn't add any strange code, to
the best of my knowledge, and have tried to delete things I added from
before it started happening, to no avail. If I can't resolve this, I'm
going to try another application. If the same thing happens, this
certainly would be a show-stopper for me. I'll put up with some annoying
problems if I can get the job done, but this has eliminated my ability
to even write code.

--

2000 Tuesdays: Feb/last 4/4 6/6 8/8/ 10/10 12/12 9/5 5/9 7/11 11/7 3/14
Strobe Data Inc. home page   http://www.veryComputer.com/
My home page    O-           http://www.veryComputer.com/

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Jim Coo » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


Quote:> Here's a problem report:

> One other thing I ran into I can't explain yet. I had been trying to
> write a calculator that operates using feet and inches directly. I had
> been compiling it and downloading to POSE. Suddenly, I started getting a
> pop-up message saying:

I got a very quick response from NSBasic and they found that the
NoOccurs function has a bug. Do not use that function until the next
maintenance release.

I'm very pleased with the speed that they replied to my message and
solved the problem.

I thought you'd all like to know their support quality, as well. That
sometimes counts for a great deal.

--

2000 Tuesdays: Feb/last 4/4 6/6 8/8/ 10/10 12/12 9/5 5/9 7/11 11/7 3/14
Strobe Data Inc. home page   http://www.strobedata.com
My home page    O-           http://jcook.net

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by Frank Townsen » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


I have found that turning off sounds (in the "Sounds" control panel applet)
including ones for critical stop, exclamation, menu popup, question, and a
variety of others makes me much less irritable.

>One thing that annoys the *out of me is that every time I compile,
>it dings the bell. Turn off the damn speaker. Don't pop up that type of
>box. Something, for crying out loud.

 
 
 

NS Basic for Palm

Post by George Henn » Tue, 14 Mar 2000 04:00:00


NS Basic/Palm does indeed have a CHAIN statement. It lets you switch to
another program (.prc).
That can be a another NS Basic/Palm program or any other executable.



Quote:> In the olden days (QuickBASIC/MSBASIC) this was used to advantage for
> applications which were made up of a series of sub-applications.  The
CHAIN
> statement in BASIC permitted the various sub-programs to take advantage of
> the single common runtime.  QB went even further allowing you to compile
> unrelated programs that used the common runtime.  Some C compilers used
> overlays to good advantage to do similar things.  I wrote a rather large
> accounting system that made extensive use of C overlays.

> It's a concept that seems to have fallen aside with the advent of
> larger/cheaper memories.  And, of course, it can be argued that the
various
> DLL's for systems such as Visual Basic and common loadable libraries under
> some UNIX versions (Sun being the one I'm familiar with) continue the
> concept.  Although, in their cases, I'd say the motivation is not really
to
> save disk space or memory.

>     - Bill

 
 
 

1. NS Basic/Palm 3.1 Released

May 14, 2003 -  NS BASIC Corporation is pleased to announce the
immediate availability of NS Basic/Palm 3.1. The new release includes
a Chinese language IDE and adds new features which take advantage of
Palm OS 5.

"Asia has always been a strong market for our products." said George
Henne, President of NS BASIC Corporation. "By adding Chinese
Traditional and Chinese Simplified versions of our development
environment, we make it much easier for developers in China, Hong Kong
and Taiwan to create apps for Palm OS devices."

NS BASIC also announced a number of new features to further take
advantage of the capabilities of Palm OS 5 devices, including

- Support for Hi Res images, lines and shapes        
- Support for Hi Res Signature Capture        
- Recognizing the new buttons on Zire 71 and Tungsten C devices

There are a number of other updates as well. NS Basic/Palm creates
apps that run on all Palm OS 5 devices from all manufacturers.

With these enhancements, NS Basic/Palm makes it easy to create apps
that look great on Palm OS 5 devices, while continuing to run well on
Palm OS 4 and 3.

More about NS Basic for Palm OS
    NS Basic allows developers who have programmed with tools such as
Visual Basic to use their experience to rapidly develop applications
for Palm OS 5 based and earlier devices. NS Basic is a complete,
powerful development environment for Palm OS applications. NS Basic
includes features such as databases, serial and IR communications,
signature capture, bar code reading, wireless communications and more.
NS Basic/Palm is priced at $149.95 for a single user version. An
Enterprise edition is available. There are no runtime royalty charges
for apps created with NS Basic/Palm.

About NS BASIC
    NS Basic for Palm OS is one of the most widely used Palm OS
development tools.  NS BASIC Corporation has been a leading creator of
development tools for handheld devices since 1993.  More than 14,000
developers in over 60 countries use NS BASIC's tools for Palm OS,
Windows CE and Newton.   Here are some useful pointers for more
information:
    Tour: http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/info/Tour.html
    FAQ: http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/info/faq.html
    Specifications: http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/info/Specifications.html

2. Copy hard drive to another drive

3. NS Basic/Palm adds support for Symbol, HandEra

4. Why would an app that works on Win 95 not work on Win 98

5. Ann: NS Basic/Palm new version, downloadable demo

6. smtp server authentication

7. Ann: NS BASIC Announces Development Tool for Palm

8. acquisto acrobat usato

9. NS/BASIC Programming for Palm

10. Ann: NS Basic/Palm 3.0 released!

11. NS Basic - Random files

12. NS BASIC Announces Programming Contest!

13. NS/Basic Manual