[press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source Java Implementations]

[press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source Java Implementations]

Post by Adit » Thu, 28 Mar 2002 02:29:02



I'm assuming this is good news for the FreeBSD native Java port but I'm not
sure it helps any more than the work that the FreeBSD foundation has done over
the last few months? Anyone have anything more excitingly postive to say about
it?

Adi


Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:43:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)


Subject: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source
 Java Implementations

Contact: The Apache Software Foundation

     Jason Hunter
     Vice President, Java Community Process

     Sally Khudairi
     Media Relations

     +1.415.672.9045

Apache Software Foundation Reaches Agreement With Sun Microsystems To
Allow Open Source Java Implementations

SAN FRANCISCO, CA -- (INTERNET WIRE) -- 03/26/2002 -- www.apache.org --
The Apache Software Foundation (ASF) today announced that it has reached
an agreement with Sun Microsystems and members of the Java Community
Process (JCP) to secure the basic right to implement Java specifications
in open source. This is the result of extended dialog over the past
year. Sun has pledged to use licenses that enable open source
independent implementations for all its Java specifications and Test
Compatibility Kits. Sun has pledged this for all future Sun-led Java
specifications as well as key specifications already released.

"It gives us great pleasure to have served the interests of the wider
open source community, largely made up of individuals and small groups
who may not have the resources and visibility to establish this level of
dialog," said Jason Hunter, ASF Vice-President, Java Community Process.
"To satisfy this trust, the ASF will be closely monitoring the
implementation details of the contents of this agreement to ensure the
gains represented by this agreement are not lost."

"We believe, properly implemented, these changes will fertilize the
growing open source Java community, resulting in wider adoption of Java
technologies. We also strongly believe the wider availability of Test
Compatibility Kits and the existence of solid open source Java
specification implementations will serve to improve and enhance Java's
compatibility," explained Hunter.

THE AGREEMENT

The agreement responds to four concerns Apache raised in January and
posted publicly on its Website at
jakarta.apache.org/news/jspa-position.html. These four points were seen
as critical to Apache's support of and continued participation in the
Java Community Process:

1.      The right to freely implement specifications in open source

2.      The right for specification leads to release reference
        implementations and test kits in open source

3.      The right for specifications to be created more publicly

4.      The right to free access to test kits by open source,
        non-profit, and academic groups

These issues are being addressed via two mechanisms. First, through a
series of proposed revisions to the legal agreement signed when joining
the Java Community Process, known as the JSPA. The JSPA is currently
undergoing revision by the JCP Executive Committee (EC). As part of an
early review, EC comments indicated a desire to address the concerns
Apache raised. Apache is pleased to see Sun, who leads the JSPA revision
process, propose modifications that address these concerns. This will
help guide the JSPA revision process to conclusion.
Second, and for more immediate effect, Sun has agreed to proactively
address Apache's issues for Sun-led JSRs in the following manner, as
expressed in a letter of intent posted at
jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html:

      For Sun-led specifications finalized from here forward
        (including revisions to existing
        specifications) the license terms will allow independent
        implemenations under open source licenses.

      The Test Compatibility Kit (TCK) binaries for these
        specifications will be made available
        at no cost to qualified open source, non-profit, and academic
        groups.

      A three-member board, including a representative from the Apache
        Software Foundation, will
        assure an impartial qualification process.

      Sun will provide substantial support to aid these qualified
        groups in the use and execution of the TCKs.

Apache welcomes other companies leading Java specifications -- many of
whom have also desired more openness in the JCP -- in making similar
pledges.

ABOUT THE APACHE SOFTWARE FOUNDATION

The Apache Software Foundation provides organizational, legal, and
financial support for the Apache open-source software projects. Formerly
known as the Apache Group, the Foundation incorporated as a
membership-based, not-for-profit corporation to ensure that the Apache
projects continue to exist beyond the participation of individual
volunteers, to enable contributions of intellectual property and
financial support, and to provide a vehicle for limiting legal exposure
while participating in open-source projects. For more information on the
Apache Software Foundation, please see www.apache.org.

----- End forwarded message -----


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[press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source Java Implementations]

Post by Jorge de Lucas y Caden » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:52:08


BTW:
I just tested the Shared Source CLI (Rotor) from
Microsoft, it compiles, and the basic examples
do actually work.

As Sun has never made things
easy for Java developers under
FreeBSD, I guess they might learn something
from what MS is doing.

Here is some useful information:
http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCs...
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/03/27/archtour.html
http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli

Of course I prefer Java but...
this might be an alternative
worth considering.

Regards,

Jorge



>>Yep, there are lots of pessimistic scenarios in this.  The question is
>>whether anyone will care if/when high quality open source JVMs start to
>>appear.

> It's pretty difficult to do so because of the size of shear size of the
> JVM and because it's a moving target.

> Slightly off topic, but the Mono folks have a better chance of getting
> a .NET compatible system useable more so that the JVM folks it seems.

> I'm quite interested in CLR and CIL in .NET in that having an universal
> typing system across all languages targetted to it is very cool.

>>>Sun is vitally interested in controlling the Java platform, so if they
>>>give with one hand they need to take with the other hand somewhere
>>>else...

>>It's always wise to view Sun's moves, like any large company's, with a
>>degree of skepticism.

> It's good to know folks of your stature lurk on this list. Brian's one
> of the key folks in Apache for those that don't know. Thanks for
> dropping a note.

> ;-)

> bill


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[press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source Java Implementations]

Post by Bill Hu » Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:42:36



> It'd be tough to start one from scratch; I'd wager it's about the same
> amount of code complexity as the GNU C toolchain today.  What's more
> likely is someone open sourcing an existing JVM, and putting their
> existing dev resources (or enough dev resources) on it.  Or throwing
> their weight behind Kaffe or something like that, but more likely
> releasing a new one.

IMO, from looking at all the HotSpot/JVM internals over this year and a
half time frame, that's impossible for an open source group to commit
the necessary resources to create a useable J2SE clone. You need too
many domain experts with too long term a focus to complete each
subsystem.

Quote:> > Slightly off topic, but the Mono folks have a better chance of getting
> > a .NET compatible system useable more so that the JVM folks it seems.

> > I'm quite interested in CLR and CIL in .NET in that having an universal
> > typing system across all languages targetted to it is very cool.

> It would be really interesting to hear whether Mono's CLR and
> Java-to-CLR-bytecode compiler was a faster route to a stable and reliable
> runtime than the pure-bred JVMs.  Certainly it would be a nice way to

The problem here is that the JVM uses a more coarse grain runtime typing
system that's difficult to translate onto CLR terms. I can't remember the
details exactly, but it's got speed optimization specifically for the runtime
invocation of Java methods that make it a conceptual mismatch to CLR.
RMI is also effected by this as are other things that use JVM first
class types facilities directly.

The differences in security models are also problem. Java's much more
restricted bytecode is easier to verify. I'm not a security expert so I
can't comment much more on this topic.

I wish I had more time to investigate this since it's such an interesting
topic and really believe that .NET/CLR is technically good enough that it might
really profoundly effect things over the entire industry. MS has a half
crippled way of implementing things, but that doesn't take away from the
core technology, specifically type meta-data descriptions CIL, etc...

Quote:> address Java's biggest shortcoming, IMHO, which is that it just doesn't
> play nice with other apps (unless you go over slow interfaces like XML-RPC
> or SOAP).  Regardless, soon we'll be able to do that experiment legally.
> :)

Sure, I'd imagine so, but I don't do EJB work, etc... so I can't really
comment ;)

That's all I can think of to ramble about right now. ;)

bill


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[press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with Sun to Allow Open Source Java Implementations]

Post by sh.. » Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:34:23



> I think the gcj project has been very successful.
> The performance of the resulting binaries is good.  It's competitive
> with state-of-the-art JIT systems.  Meaning... sometimes faster,
> sometimes slower.  When it's faster, it can be much faster.  For
> instance, certain crypto operations used in SSL can run 10x faster than
> state-of-the-art commercial JITs.

I agree completely on your view that the GCJ is being mature in both
performance and stability.  Performance tests also endorse the fact:

  Performance comparison of JITs (Jan 2002)
  http://www.shudo.net/jit/perf/

But, your wording like `GCJ is 10 times faster than modern JITs' is
misleading even it is not false at all.  You may refer the following
report, which says the GCJ do a work in a second but the HotSpot VM
takes over 10 seconds.

  GCJ success stories (was: Re: status of gcj's boehm collector?)
  http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/java/2001-12/msg00108.html

Quote:> And start up times are always much faster.

Start up time (latency) and throughput (or peak performance) can be
measured separately and evaluating separately is the way we as
engineers prefer, I suppose.


> IMO, from looking at all the HotSpot/JVM internals over this year and a
> half time frame, that's impossible for an open source group to commit
> the necessary resources to create a useable J2SE clone. You need too
> many domain experts with too long term a focus to complete each
> subsystem.

I'm also sure there are a small number of people who can contribute to
state-of-the-art language systems.  But see GCC and GCJ.  They are
going forward certainly.  Besides, a certain number of experts are
working on open source Java projects, like GCJ, Hans Boehm, John
Whaley, Kaffe, SableVM, OpenJIT, Wonka and others.  Each one of us
only do what will lead the world to what each hope.



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1. [press@apache.org: PRESS RELEASE: ASF Reaches Agreement with

Right.  So here's the deal.  What this does is "fix" the "bug" that
legally prevented open source implementations of JCP-defined standards.
Without going into a lot of details about spec licenses, Testing
Conformance Kits, whether implementations of a spec are derivative works
of that spec, etc., what this means is that *after* this is fixed, Java
standards *might* now legally be implemented by open source software.  I
say *might* because a spec lead may still choose to put a license on the
spec or TCK that prevents open source implementations, but Sun has
promised not to do that for all the specs they lead (which is most, and
all of the critical ones), and I doubt many of the others would do this
either, since everyone else in the JCP's EC has been agitating for open
source as well.

Anyways, the litmus test is to watch the standards released after this
week's promised changes to the JSPA (the constitution for the JCP) are
made; for example, if the JDK 1.5 spec comes out and it allows open source
implementations, then we will probably see real legal open source Java VMs
out there.  This should make the folks involved with Kaffe, JBoss, and
other Java open source projects happy, as now they can exist without
worrying about Sun's silver hammer coming down upon their heads at any
time.

This does *not* mean that Sun will automatically release their reference
implementations or their own Java technology under open source licenses.
I won't speculate at this point as to whether they will; there's no doubt
in my mind, though, that someone else will do so.  So, the porting work
being done here with Sun's VM still might not go open source.  There's
always a hope, though.

        Brian


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