Very Computer

        Hellow everyone,
    I'm trying to make up my mind, what is better to use: SRM console or
ALPHABIOS? I've got LX164 system with 667MHz 21164 stone and NT preinstalled
on it. I understand that one can't have both SRM and ALPHABIOS on this
system and that NT can't be booted from SRM, so if I move to SRM I'll have
to use Linux or Unix only. But that's what I want to do, to learn Linux or
Unix and forget about Windows. Well, question: generally speaking, what's
"better", SRM or ALPHABIOS ( not considering what OS to boot )? And again,
generally speaking, what's better, Unix or Linux ( not considering the price
of Tru64 licence )?
    Thanks in advance, Anthony.

SRM DU/T64

Digital Unix/True64 is the best of the unix variants I've used. $99 get
you the non-commercial kit and licence. The only nit I've had is the lib
name clash with Java's libjpeg, and the rest of the world's libjpeg :(
Thanks Sun...

Linux is OK, but it not near as solid as DU, nor as clean. The usual
packages build with very little problems as well.

IMO as usual. I've no doubt Linux weenies will differ.

BTW, you can run the BSD tribe as well on an Alpha.

--
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.

I'll agree with you on that Digital UNIX is one of the best UNIXen
around--for a commercial UNIX.

Quote:>Linux is OK, but it not near as solid as DU, nor as clean. The usual
>packages build with very little problems as well.

Well, it's a mixed bag.  I've had a lot of trouble with ethernet
drivers with Linux/alpha (linux/intel too).  
The distribution I'm using, Redhat Linux
7.0 is good except for the compiler:  use DEC CXX and kgcc not
gcc....

However, upgrading or applying fixes to a linux/alpha machine is
WAY more pleasant than dealing with Tru64's horrible update tool.

PeterM

Quote:> "better", SRM or ALPHABIOS ( not considering what OS to boot )?

For booting Linux, I prefer SRM. Why? It's cooler, it doesn't have
the M$-connection.
And the best thing of it all: booting is faster with SRM (at least
on my machine).

/Jokke tmw.

 http://www.efd.lth.se/~d97jro/

I almost agree with you.

Which is better, Tru64 or Linux, depends on what you want.  

For example, if you want your box to be simply a packet filter, you're
better using Linux with iptables.  You can do it on tru64 with nat or
whatever, but your better choice would be Linux in that case.

If you want a graphical display ... I dare you to try putting KDE or Gnome
on T64.  It's been done, I know it has, but it's certainly not as easy as
it is in Linux.  Tru64's CDE is definitely a dinosaur, and there is a far
wider variety of user-friendly applications available for Linux, Gnome,
KDE.

If you need to keep your server up forever, well, Linux simply doesn't
support hotswapping scsi disks.

Also, remember, when you're choosing between UNIX and Linux, there are
other variants of UNIX available.  NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, whatever.

Anthony says, "My goal is to learn Linux or Unix."

Generally speaking, I think it's easier to learn Linux.  Mostly because
there are so many HOWTO's, faqs, and other documentation available.  Of
course, there is a lot of documentation for unix too, but it's more
plentiful and more beginner-readable for Linux.

If your goal is to set up a rock solid server, your choice should
definitely be Tru64.  If your goal is to simply learn, I suggest starting
with Linux, keeping several distros on your hard drive(s) at a time, and
perhaps even dual-booting with Tru64.  You learn the most when you examine
the differences and similarities between all the different OSes.  

T64 is a more mature, more solid OS, but Linux is growing faster...  Will
it ever become the better OS?  Who's to say.  I don't think anybody truly
knows.  This much I can say, however:  Neither one will disappear in the
next couple of decades.  That's because each one has its pros and cons.  
Tru64 is targeted toward the high-end, bet-your-business on this server
side of the market, and Linux is targeted toward the proponents of free
software side.  Neither side of the market will disappear any time soon.

Now, SRM vs Alphabios...  

AFAIK, if you're using Linux or Unix, the only reason for you to use
Alphabios is if you can't use srm.

SRM is very impressive, especially if you're new to it.  I suggest going
with SRM.

I almost agree with you.

Which is better, Tru64 or Linux, depends on what you want.  

For example, if you want your box to be simply a packet filter, you're
better using Linux with iptables.  You can do it on tru64 with nat or
whatever, but your better choice would be Linux in that case.

If you want a graphical display ... I dare you to try putting KDE or
Gnome on T64.  It's been done, I know it has, but it's certainly not as
easy as it is in Linux.  Tru64's CDE is definitely a dinosaur, and there
is a far wider variety of user-friendly applications available for Linux,
Gnome, KDE.

Want the most stable, rock solid OS for your computer?  Get Tru64.  It is
(almost undeniably) better than Linux.

Want an office application, such as Koffice?  Good luck on Tru64.  No prob
on Linux.

If you need to keep your server up forever, well, Linux simply doesn't
support hotswapping scsi disks.  Tru64 can hot swap no trouble, as long as
your hardware supports it.

Also, remember there are other variants of UNIX available.  NetBSD,
FreeBSD, OpenBSD, whatever.

Anthony says, "My goal is to learn Linux or Unix."

Generally speaking, I think it's easier to learn Linux, because there are
so many HOWTO's, faqs, and other documentation available.  Of course, there
is a lot of documentation for unix too, but it's more plentiful and more
beginner-readable for Linux.

If your goal is to set up a rock solid server, your choice should
definitely be Tru64.  If your goal is to simply learn, I suggest starting
with Linux, keeping several distros on your hard drive(s) at a time, and
perhaps even dual-booting with Tru64.  You learn the most when you examine
the differences and similarities between all the different OSes.  

T64 is a more mature, more solid OS, but Linux is growing faster...  Will
it ever become the better OS?  Who's to say.  I don't think anybody truly
knows, and if they claim they know, I think they're wrong.  This much I can
say, however:  Neither one will disappear in the next couple of decades.  
That's because each one is better in its own field.  Tru64 is targeted
toward the high-end, bet-your-business on this server side of the market,
and Linux is targeted toward the proponents of free software.  Neither side
of the market will disappear any time soon.

.....

And Finally, Anthony, SRM vs Alphabios...  

AFAIK, if you're using Linux or Unix, the only reason for you to use
Alphabios is if you can't use srm.

SRM is much more impressive, especially if you're new to it.  I suggest
going with SRM.

There are actually more weighty reasons in favour of SRM.  Alpha
processor is in a sense "incomplete".  You have to load on a startup
so called "PAL code", supplied by a manufacturer, to setup various
initial internal structures and give a "personality" to a processor.
A PAL code used by milo is an old NT binary only module, because
there is no other one available for the purpose, orphaned long time
ago, with known problems, not meant for Unix/Linux, etc.  In other
words, using PAL code from current versions of SRM you are likely
to get a better performance too.  OTOH there are some Alpha machines
without any SRM at all, or there is some hardware which may be
recognized and initialized by milo but not by SRM.  That is the
reason why milo is not really dead yet.

  Michal

p.s. If you will ask me what this TLA PAL stands for then I do not
remember.  But somebody in this newsgroup is bound to know. :-)

Hi,

KDE is allready available for T64 without the need for complex installation
procedures.

Regards,

Werner

uhm... i've to tell my systems they cannot :)
seriously, the storageworks disks attached to the mylex cards on my alphas
_are_ hotswappable;

Quote:> Also, remember, when you're choosing between UNIX and Linux, there are
> other variants of UNIX available.  NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, whatever.

i was waiting paul saying "hey, give vms a try" :)

Quote:> SRM is very impressive, especially if you're new to it.  I suggest going
> with SRM.

agree

--
ciao
marco

Quote:>uhm... i've to tell my systems they cannot :)
>seriously, the storageworks disks attached to the mylex cards on my
>alphas _are_ hotswappable;

Indeed, but the Linux kernel does not support hotswapping a scsi disk.
Not 2.2, not 2.4.

You can, if you're daring, fudge your way around it by echoing add single
scsi device into /proc/scsi/scsi or similar, but it's a risky manoeuver.  
I've seen file systems become corrupted that way.

It could, possibly, be different for disks on a raid controller, but not
for a local scsi bus.

Hey, I resemble that !! ;)

Well, if you want it to, too quote my daughter, "just work"...

--
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.

Way faster here, as it doesn't go through the SCSI board startup,
then all the drive, network card, etc... checks either.
The only slight downside is that it can only boot from IDE
as my SCSI card isn't recognised by SRM. No real bother though.

BTW I was just looking at recompiling the 2.2.17-14 kernel, and
am a little confused by the General Setup/Use SRM as bootloader
option. The help says "...note that you won't be able to boot
from an IDE disk using SRM.".  ?

--
<URL:http://www.pierrot.co.uk/faq/dtm.faq>                       Team AMIGA
It was a brave man that ate the first oyster.

[snip useful info.]

Quote:> p.s. If you will ask me what this TLA PAL stands for then I do not
> remember.  But somebody in this newsgroup is bound to know. :-)

Well HAL is Hardware Abstraction Layer, maybe the P is Peripheral ?

--
<URL:http://www.pierrot.co.uk/faq/dtm.faq>                       Team AMIGA
The greatest remedy for anger is delay.

That is right, sort of.  SRM technically only supports booting from scsi
devices.  However, some systems let you use scsi-emulation, which in effect
allow you to boot ide devices.  
I don't know which systems allow you to do that.

When you enable the "Using SRM" option, the kernel will communicate with
the firmware for certain things.  I don't know what, and I don't know the
effect.

In short, if you are using SRM, I suggest enabling the option.  It must do
*something* good.
If you are not using SRM, don't enable it.

'Privileged Architecture Library'

Start here:
http://www.support.compaq.com/alpha-tools/documentation/
choose 'current', then 'alpha-archt' to get to here:
http://www.support.compaq.com/alpha-tools/documentation/current/alpha...

and download the Alpha Architecture Reference Manual

http://www.support.compaq.com/alpha-tools/documentation/current/alpha...

Chapter 6: Common PALcode Architecture
6.1 PALcode
...
One of the goals of Alpha architecture is to implement functions
consistently without micro-code.
However, it is still desirable to provide an architected interface to
these functions that
will be consistent across the entire family of machines. The Privileged
Architecture Library
(PALcode) provides a mechanism to implement these functions without
microcode.
...

HTH,
=Aaron
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