tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Larry Li » Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:00:00



Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).  A
big issue is stability and after that is look-and-feel (the GUI part).
The program is more i/o than compute intensive so java and its
interpretive nature (read speed) is not that big a deal (I hope).  Java
is attractive because it's all encompassing (ie, don't have to deal with
native threads, a separate language/script for gui,...), and it seems
like a "hipper" choice.  But this app will be fairly mission critical so
I want the best candidate for the job.  I'm fairly new to Java and even
newer to tcl/tk so I'm not aware of some of the nuances, tradeoffs,
pitfalls involved.  And which one works better with Linux.  Please let
me know what you think.  Thank you very much!!  BTW, the app doesn't
involve the web, it will only operate in a closed LAN.

Larry

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Chri » Mon, 10 Jan 2000 04:00:00


TCL/TK is fine, but not always smooth.  Java, which runs fine on Linux, is
not my choice for mission critical situations.  BTW, Java is only a "hip"
choice for Finance Directors.  I would explore your options with TCL/TK and
C/C++ and go from there.  Hope all goes well.

Chris


Quote:> Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
> and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
> c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).  A
> big issue is stability and after that is look-and-feel (the GUI part).
> The program is more i/o than compute intensive so java and its
> interpretive nature (read speed) is not that big a deal (I hope).  Java
> is attractive because it's all encompassing (ie, don't have to deal with
> native threads, a separate language/script for gui,...), and it seems
> like a "hipper" choice.  But this app will be fairly mission critical so
> I want the best candidate for the job.  I'm fairly new to Java and even
> newer to tcl/tk so I'm not aware of some of the nuances, tradeoffs,
> pitfalls involved.  And which one works better with Linux.  Please let
> me know what you think.  Thank you very much!!  BTW, the app doesn't
> involve the web, it will only operate in a closed LAN.

> Larry


 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Roger Tobin Reyel » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>TCL/TK is fine, but not always smooth.  Java, which runs fine on Linux, is
>not my choice for mission critical situations.  BTW, Java is only a "hip"
>choice for Finance Directors.  I would explore your options with TCL/TK and
>C/C++ and go from there.  Hope all goes well.

>Chris

        On the other hand,

        Since it sounds like you plan on deploying an application ( as
opposed to an applet ), you can easily use Swing, which is perhaps the most
OO ( in this case, read easy-to-develop with ) portable windowing system
in existence. If you have any experience in OOP ( specifically with the
MVC design pattern ), you can build a complex, yet easily maintainable
gui in a very short period of time. If you prefer to avoid hand-coding
the gui logic / screens, there exists an entire plethora of highly
acclaimed _free_ commercial ide's available ( for Linux ) to do the
work for you. For example, Borland's JBuilder3, IBM's Visual Age for Java,
and Sun's NetBeans.

        While the latest versions of Java ( 1.2 / the 1.3 beta ) are not
yet well proven, the 1.1 version has an incredible amount of deployment
time behind it ( read well-proven ), and is sufficient to run Swing.

        Of course, you can integrate any critical high-performance native
C code into the mix through JNI, sockets, or Corba.

        Java is much more than just a 'hip' choice for Finance Directors.
Open your favorite EE magazine, for example, and just see how many articles
you'll find about Java ( And I'd be willing to bet you won't find one single
mention of TCL/TK at all, much less as an option over Java ).

        I think you'll find that TCL/TK is much more on the level of Basic
or Rexx ( meaning, a scripting language ). Java bridges the gap between
these scripting languages and C++, by providing a highly flexible and oo api
that is very easy to use without introducing all of the headaches of manual
memory management, multiple inheritance, and extraneous C baggage ( for
example pre-processor directives ) that C++ carries with it.

        God bless,
        -Toby Reyelts
--
Toby Reyelts
331107  Georgia Tech Station Atlanta Georgia 30332-1365

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Selim Isseve » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00


[...]
Quote:>         I think you'll find that TCL/TK is much more on the level of Basic
> or Rexx ( meaning, a scripting language ). Java bridges the gap between
> these scripting languages and C++, by providing a highly flexible and oo api
> that is very easy to use without introducing all of the headaches of manual
> memory management, multiple inheritance, and extraneous C baggage ( for
> example pre-processor directives ) that C++ carries with it.

[...]

you should really consider itcl too! it closes the same gap by providing
access to both parts: scripting and oop,.. its just so fast to program with it
(scripting) and easy to extend (oop),..

Cheers,
Selim

--
Selim Issever | Tel: 040 8998-2843    +- The public! The public! How --
DESY-F15      | Fax: 040 8998-4033    +-many fools does it take to make

22603 Hamburg/Germany   |  http://www.physik.uni-dortmund.de/~issevers

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by yan.narodit.. » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Hi.
I think that Tcl/Tk is a very good tool for the Infrastructure
applications. It also may be used as GUI tool for the command line
utilities (like the Unix system utilities) and applications, but I am
not sure that it is useful for writing the big applications.



Quote:> Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
> and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk
with
> c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X
window).  A
> big issue is stability and after that is look-and-feel (the GUI part).
> The program is more i/o than compute intensive so java and its
> interpretive nature (read speed) is not that big a deal (I hope).
Java
> is attractive because it's all encompassing (ie, don't have to deal
with
> native threads, a separate language/script for gui,...), and it seems
> like a "hipper" choice.  But this app will be fairly mission critical
so
> I want the best candidate for the job.  I'm fairly new to Java and
even
> newer to tcl/tk so I'm not aware of some of the nuances, tradeoffs,
> pitfalls involved.  And which one works better with Linux.  Please let
> me know what you think.  Thank you very much!!  BTW, the app doesn't
> involve the web, it will only operate in a closed LAN.

> Larry

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tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Donal K. Fello » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00



> TCL/TK is fine, but not always smooth.  Java, which runs fine on Linux, is
> not my choice for mission critical situations.  BTW, Java is only a "hip"
> choice for Finance Directors.  I would explore your options with TCL/TK and
> C/C++ and go from there.  Hope all goes well.

Java is very useful for more than just FDs; server-side Java is a very
good thing indeed (and can be trivially intermixed with Tcl there; see
Jacl and TclBlend.)  However the main reason for choosing Tcl/Tk is if
you want access to the canvas widget which provides the tools you need
for advanced hypergraphics.  While you can technically do more with
Java2D, it takes *so* much more work that I've not found it to be
worthwhile switching my GUI clients from Tcl/Tk to Java.  The effort
to convert my complex GUIs more than exceeds the benefits I'd gain
from the use of things like RMI.

For the majority of GUI work, threads are only ever a gain on multiple
CPU machines.  Which isn't most workstations or desktop systems...

Donal.
--

-- The small advantage of not having California being part of my country would
   be overweighed by having California as a heavily-armed rabid weasel on our

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Grant Edwar » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
>and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
>c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).  

Have you though about Python?  

It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl, and it
can be used with Tk, gtk, Qt, or wxWindows GUI toolkits.  A
couple of those are portable between Unix and Win32.  Python is
object-oriented, and supports threads.  There are tons of
library modules for everything from numerical analysis to HTML
to databases. There's even a version of Python that's
implemented in Java, so you can use the Java GUI classes and
intermingle Java modules and Python modules.

  http://www.python.org/

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  As President I
                                  at               have to go vacuum my coin
                               visi.com            collection!

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Richard.Suchenwirt » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00




> >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
> >and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
> >c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).

> Have you though about Python?

> It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl [...]

How do you measure programming language realism? I've gone through some
handfuls, and I like Tcl best from the potentials/restrictions ratio.
Matter of taste, maybe ;-)  
--
Schoene Gruesse/best regards, Richard Suchenwirth - +49-7531-86 2703
RC DT2, Siemens Electrocom, Buecklestr. 1-5, D-78467 Konstanz,Germany
-------------- http://purl.org/thecliff/tcl/wiki//Richard*Suchenwirth
 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Christopher M. Batma » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Python is a great suggestion!

Christopher



> >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
> >and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
> >c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).

> Have you though about Python?

> It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl, and it
> can be used with Tk, gtk, Qt, or wxWindows GUI toolkits.  A
> couple of those are portable between Unix and Win32.  Python is
> object-oriented, and supports threads.  There are tons of
> library modules for everything from numerical analysis to HTML
> to databases. There's even a version of Python that's
> implemented in Java, so you can use the Java GUI classes and
> intermingle Java modules and Python modules.

>   http://www.python.org/

> --
> Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  As President I
>                                   at               have to go vacuum my
coin
>                                visi.com            collection!

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Grant Edwar » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00





>> >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI,
>> >sockets, and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether
>> >to use tcl/tk with c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't
>> >want to learn X window).

>> Have you thought about Python?

>> It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl [...]

>How do you measure programming language realism?

Python has more data types than "string" and "list of strings".

Python supports modular programming.

Python supports object-oriented programming with multiple
inheritence.

Python has a usable exception handling system.

Quote:>I've gone through some handfuls, and I like Tcl best from the
>potentials/restrictions ratio.

I wrote a couple Tcl/Tk apps, and finally gave up and switched
to Scheme (and later Python) because:

 a) Tcl syntax (particularly quoting) was just too hard for me.
    I always had to actually _try_ things to see what they
    would do.  IMO, that's not an acceptible feature for a
    language.

 b) Tcl lacked useful data types like structures and objects.

Quote:>Matter of taste, maybe ;-)  

Undoubtedly.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Of course, you
                                  at               UNDERSTAND about the PLAIDS
                               visi.com            in the SPIN CYCLE --

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by d2fabri.. » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00


Tcl allows the interpreter to be embedded
in the user application. Can you do this
with wxPython or any other version?

Thanks,
Dan Fabrizio



> Python is a great suggestion!

> Christopher




> > >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI,
sockets,
> > >and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use
tcl/tk with
> > >c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X
window).

> > Have you though about Python?

> > It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl, and it
> > can be used with Tk, gtk, Qt, or wxWindows GUI toolkits.  A
> > couple of those are portable between Unix and Win32.  Python is
> > object-oriented, and supports threads.  There are tons of
> > library modules for everything from numerical analysis to HTML
> > to databases. There's even a version of Python that's
> > implemented in Java, so you can use the Java GUI classes and
> > intermingle Java modules and Python modules.

> >   http://www.python.org/

> > --
> > Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  As
President I
> >                                   at               have to go
vacuum my
> coin
> >                                visi.com            collection!

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Mo » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00



> Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
> and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
> c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).  A
> big issue is stability and after that is look-and-feel (the GUI part).
> The program is more i/o than compute intensive so java and its
> interpretive nature (read speed) is not that big a deal (I hope).  Java
> is attractive because it's all encompassing (ie, don't have to deal with
> native threads, a separate language/script for gui,...), and it seems
> like a "hipper" choice.  But this app will be fairly mission critical so
> I want the best candidate for the job.  I'm fairly new to Java and even
> newer to tcl/tk so I'm not aware of some of the nuances, tradeoffs,
> pitfalls involved.  And which one works better with Linux.  Please let
> me know what you think.  Thank you very much!!  BTW, the app doesn't
> involve the web, it will only operate in a closed LAN.

> Larry

There really is no reason to choose between Tcl/Tk and Java. You can use
them both. You really do not want to write your GUI in Java, so use Tk
for
that part of your application. For other parts, you could prototype it
in Tcl and move the implementation over to Java or even C code if you
think it is not fast enough. Tcl provides some really useful scripting
functionality, Tk is an easy to use GUI toolkit, and Java provides nice
OO functionality that can really help abstract out a complex
application.

For more info on combining Tcl/Tk, Java, and C code, check out this URL:

http://www.scriptics.com/java

Mo Dejong
RedHat Software

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Grant Edwar » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00



>Tcl allows the interpreter to be embedded in the user
>application. Can you do this with wxPython or any other
>version?

Yes.  Disclaimer: I've never done it.

    <http://www.python.org/doc/current/ext/ext.html>

AFAICT, people generally extend Python with C and C++ to do
what they want rather than embedding Python in a C/C++
application.  

I've done neither, but I get the impression that it's more
common to call modules written in C/C++ from a python "main"
than it is to call the python interpreter from C/C++ "main".
However, the above web page shows how to do both.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  ... I think I'm
                                  at               having an overnight
                               visi.com            sensation right now!!

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Jeffrey Hobb » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00






> >> >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI,
> >> >sockets, and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether
> >> >to use tcl/tk with c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't
> >> >want to learn X window).

> >> Have you thought about Python?

> >> It's far more of a "real" programming language than Tcl [...]

> >How do you measure programming language realism?

> Python has more data types than "string" and "list of strings".

> Python supports modular programming.

> Python supports object-oriented programming with multiple
> inheritence.

Itcl has the last two, FWIRW...

Quote:> Python has a usable exception handling system.

So does Tcl...

Quote:> >I've gone through some handfuls, and I like Tcl best from the
> >potentials/restrictions ratio.

> I wrote a couple Tcl/Tk apps, and finally gave up and switched
> to Scheme (and later Python) because:

>  a) Tcl syntax (particularly quoting) was just too hard for me.
>     I always had to actually _try_ things to see what they
>     would do.  IMO, that's not an acceptible feature for a lang

Hmmm, this is a problem I had for a very short time, and hasn't
bothered me in years.  It's so simple, that once you get those
basics down, there are no further questions.  It is, after all,
deterministic.

Quote:>  b) Tcl lacked useful data types like structures and objects.

You have to add "... in the core distro", because they exist.
In fact, when you download the TclPro binary (with the free
Tcl pieces that you can keep), you get itcl bundled in.

Quote:> >Matter of taste, maybe ;-)

> Undoubtedly.

Ditto.  I couldn't swallow the whitespace syntax style, although
Python is in general a good language.  I still stick by Tcl though.

--
   Jeffrey Hobbs                          The Tcl Guy
   jeffrey.hobbs at scriptics.com         Scriptics Corp.

 
 
 

tcl/tk or Java for GUI??

Post by Jan Pantelt » Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:00:00


>Python is a great suggestion!

>Christopher




>> >Hi, I'm going to be writing an application that involves GUI, sockets,
>> >and threads to run on Linux.  I'm debating on whether to use tcl/tk with
>> >c/c++ or Java for this task (because I don't want to learn X window).

An other solution would be xforms.
It has a form generator, and uses C.
The form generator can generate complete C code.
Also xforms is very FAST.
Regards
Jan
 
 
 

1. tkGrep - Tcl/Tk GUI for Grep

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                tkGrep
                           GUI to Unix Grep
                        Written By Wes Bailey


             http://www.phys.ksu.edu/~bailey/tkWorld.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

tkGrep is a Graphical User Interface to the Unix Grep command.  It
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        files: tkWorld-0.03.b1.tar.gz
               README.tkWorld

Hope this tool helps you get going with Grep!

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- --
This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP.
http://www.iki.fi/liw/lars-public-key.asc has PGP key for validating signature.

PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION.
This group is archived at http://www.iki.fi/liw/linux/cola.html

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