Very Computer

Hi all,

I think that Java should be used as much as possible for the development of
Linux applications.  Comments?

I believe that the 'minority' operating systems (Mac, OS/2, Linux), have lots to
gain by their embracing Java.  Insteaed of users being forced into an OS because
that's the only place their favorite app will run, the OS will become inter-
changeable:  One can choose one's OS based on its own qualities.

I'm working on an interface to the fvwm config file.  I'm using Java.  I've
played with the Tcl/Tk program that does this (dot-something?), but found it
too slow (on my P120/32MB RAM), and the interface was not very intuitive.  Of
course, it's generated from a description file, so I can see why it's the
way it is.

Well, I'm using Java mostly as an excuse to learn it better, but I think there
are good reasons for using it, even if it's never intended to be used for
the 'usual' Java applications:

  - There are lots of versions of Linux, the libraries, Tcl, Tk, etc.  It's
    happened to everyone a lot that just downloading some Linux software isn't
    good enough...one has to go on a treasure hunt to find a bunch of missing
    pieces.  And what about Linux/Sparc, MkLinux, etc.?

  - There may be other systems and users that might want to run the programs
    if it was possible: BSD, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.

  - Java's compile-time checking and exception system are wonderful for
    producing more reliable software.  

And finally, a side-comment:  The traditional Unix system of having plaintext
configuration files with human-readable formats clearly paves the way for
GUI to manage them.  Is anyone else interested in working in this area:  that
is, having a goal of not forcing users to memorize dozens of configuration
file syntaxes?  I think that when that happens, LInux will really take off.

- Robb
--
-
Robb Shecter                                               PGP Fingerprint:
University of Maryland, European Division              5F 70 B1 A7 B9 F9 42 67
Information Systems and Administrative Computing       11 27 47 EE 35 80 04 AA

Quote:> GUI to manage them.  Is anyone else interested in working in this area:  that
> is, having a goal of not forcing users to memorize dozens of configuration
> file syntaxes?  I think that when that happens, LInux will really take off.

Regards,
Chris

--
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=

North Texas Linux Users Group  \|      "Yep."
Tcl Dallas                     /|"Must be Encina."
ACM                           //| (what happens with a long rpc)

: Hi all,

: I think that Java should be used as much as possible for the development of
: Linux applications.  Comments?

: I believe that the 'minority' operating systems (Mac, OS/2, Linux), have lots to
: gain by their embracing Java.  Insteaed of users being forced into an OS because
: that's the only place their favorite app will run, the OS will become inter-
: changeable:  One can choose one's OS based on its own qualities.

: I'm working on an interface to the fvwm config file.  I'm using Java.  I've
: played with the Tcl/Tk program that does this (dot-something?), but found it
: too slow (on my P120/32MB RAM), and the interface was not very intuitive.  Of
: course, it's generated from a description file, so I can see why it's the
: way it is.

: Well, I'm using Java mostly as an excuse to learn it better, but I think there
: are good reasons for using it, even if it's never intended to be used for
: the 'usual' Java applications:

:   - There are lots of versions of Linux, the libraries, Tcl, Tk, etc.  It's
:     happened to everyone a lot that just downloading some Linux software isn't
:     good enough...one has to go on a treasure hunt to find a bunch of missing
:     pieces.  And what about Linux/Sparc, MkLinux, etc.?
:  
:   - There may be other systems and users that might want to run the programs
:     if it was possible: BSD, FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.

:   - Java's compile-time checking and exception system are wonderful for
:     producing more reliable software.  

: And finally, a side-comment:  The traditional Unix system of having plaintext
: configuration files with human-readable formats clearly paves the way for
: GUI to manage them.  Is anyone else interested in working in this area:  that
: is, having a goal of not forcing users to memorize dozens of configuration
: file syntaxes?  I think that when that happens, LInux will really take off.

Uh, the entire point of C is that it is machine independant.  Let's try
and keep focused on -one- higher level, hardware independant language.
Java wastes cycles like nothing else.  I don't want to go back to
programming in BASIC.  I have a hard enough time dealing with the cycles
lost from using C instead of assembly. :> If your operating system can't
support POSIX, then your operating system sucks and you need another. :)
DPMI and Segmentation should have died with the 286.

Quote:> Hi all,

> I think that Java should be used as much as possible for the development of
> Linux applications.  Comments?

> I believe that the 'minority' operating systems (Mac, OS/2, Linux), have lots to
> gain by their embracing Java.  Insteaed of users being forced into an OS because
> that's the only place their favorite app will run, the OS will become inter-
> changeable:  One can choose one's OS based on its own qualities.

Even if the applications were fully portable, I'd probably keep both
around, if only for play value.

Dale Pontius
(NOT speaking for IBM)

 | Uh, the entire point of C is that it is machine independant.  Let's try
 | and keep focused on -one- higher level, hardware independant language.
 +----

Java(TM) == GUI ISO C

GUI is the part worth the trouble.

Java is my current choice for GUI development, especially now
that ncurses releases might be splintering.  Unfortunately
Sun/Javasoft doesn't seem overly cooperative with porters
(possibly due to a lack of licensing money?) so while Java is a
good development target the guava/kaffe/biss tools seem easier
to hit, and more fun too.  Is anyone else playing with Squeak,
the Smalltalk for the rest of us?

Oh, and if nothing else, C++ is a better C.

--

The Internet is not The Channel.

Quote:>DPMI and Segmentation should have died with the 286.

                ____
  david parsons \bi/ Though I've finally found an advantage of C++ over
                 \/                            Java; it compiles C code.

--
Dimitri
(emaziuk at curtin.edu.au)
--------------------------
Mirrors and * are abominable, as they multiply entities
                (H.L. Borjes, corollary to Occam's Razor)

Regards,
Ross Bagley

Quote:>Oh, and if nothing else, C++ is a better C.

- Greg
--
       Comeau Computing, 91-34 120th Street, Richmond Hill, NY, 11418-3214
               Producers of Comeau C++ 4.0 front-end pre-release
****WEB: http://www.comeaucomputing.com / Voice:718-945-0009 / Fax:718-441-2310

Quote:>I'd like to do all of my development in Java, now.  I know C and C++, if
>I need to use it, but I want to use a real development system.  Is there
>a product for Linux, like Semantec's Visual Cafe?  Do I have to use the
>raw SDK?  I want to use my Linux machine for some useful development,

I'd also like to mention the JOLT project, which aims to implement free
java development tools and a virtual machine. A link to their site, as
well as many other interesting links, are at
<URL:http://www.redhat.com/linux-info/>

Quote:>book.  By the way, does the 2.0.29 kernel support the clone system call
>for kernel level threads?  I have an SMP system and would like my Java
>applications to take advantage of my dual P5-133's.  

--

Quote:>able to choose any Java-capable OS for their major applications.
>Corel will be the "litmus test" here.

(No, I'm not in it for the money, just reminding of the other nice company
providing us with software.)

--

 | > | Uh, the entire point of C is that it is machine independant.  Let's try
 | > | and keep focused on -one- higher level, hardware independant language.
 | > +----
 | >
 | >Java(TM) == GUI ISO C
 |
 | Java is not ISO C, nor is it even K&R C.

Yes it is, in a conceptual way.  Note the use of GUI.  Writing
in ISO C will, with luck, allow code to be written once.  Some
platforms may require a few tweaks, especially when depending on
libraries that are not the part of ISO C or any other standard,
but in general it is write once compile many.  "Hello world."

This generality falls over when graphics are required.

Currently there are problems with JavaVM implementations, and a
variety of AWT behaviours, that make GUI portability less than
optimal.  But the promise is there, and hopefully most of the
problems will be solved before an ISO standard would be
finalized.  If the C++ standards process is any indication then
any Java standard is a few years away.  Plenty of time.

 | >Oh, and if nothing else, C++ is a better C.
 | It's obviously more than that.
 +----

Yes, but I was talking about C code compiled with a C++
compiler.  I feel that compiling C code with a C++ compiler,
enabling as many warnings as possible, and reworking the code
until the compiler stops complaining will improve the quality of
the C code.  Even if it does not use any features of C++.

--

Privacy on the net is still illegal.

  The only thing I can think of that might be slower is the
  garbage-collector, and garbage collection is _really old_
  technology.

                ____

                 \/