Very Computer

My dad and I are in the market for a new system, and I've realized that in
getting used to the software end of things, I've neglected hardware.  I've
got about $1000 to spend, a little more for shipping.

Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on issues
like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types, FSB
speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
motherboard?

I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as well
with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and Cannon
Smash crashes.

Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It seems
to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't heard of
the company before.

Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
marketing hype.

--
Nucleon, RLU #278930, <http://counter.li.org/>

Oh, yeah, that's how it always starts:  "Ooh, ahh," but then there's the
running, and the screaming.
  -Malcom, The Lost World

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Good.  We will spend about $200 of it and build you a kick ass machine.  

Quote:> Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on issues
> like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types, FSB
> speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

AMD is a better buy for new motherboards.  

What you need to do here is go to a used computer place
and plunk down $80 and get you a used office PC.  There
are tons of Pentium III's out there right now.  All have
CD players, floppy, sound, keyboard.  For $120 I saw a
really neat dual processor system compaq made, I was tempted!

Quote:> I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
> closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

No, but that's immaterial.  You don't want to buy a new PC because
of the depreciation on the thing.  For $80 bucks out of that thousand,
you could have a new machine every year.

Quote:> How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
> speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
> similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
> motherboard?

> I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as well
> with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and Cannon
> Smash crashes.

When you get this $80 PC, I'd pop a nvidia card in it, a DVD player, CD burner,
use your old monitor.  Sometimes they come with keyboard and mouse.
And your in business.  Most have 128 Meg of Ram.  Boost that up to 512.

Quote:> Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It seems
> to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't heard of
> the company before.

> Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
> instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
> marketing hype.

If your going to run Linux, NEVER buy a new machine.  
New machines are a complete waste of money.

They depreciate so fast, it's like throwing your money in
the street and it's totally unnecessary.  

It's all in the nvidia card for the games, very little processor
power used there.  

I like the table top models which are 3 inches high.  Compact.

Like a deskpro or something like that.

Charlie

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<snip>

Now, don't laugh. Have you looked at a SUN Blade 100 which comes with
Solaris + StarOffice 6 etc for arond $US1000?

Matthew Gardinenr

Error log for Tue, 29 Oct 2002 05:09:15 +0000, segfault in module
"Nucleon": dump details are as follows...

Quote:> My dad and I are in the market for a new system, and I've realized that
> in getting used to the software end of things, I've neglected hardware.
> I've got about $1000 to spend, a little more for shipping.

Well, if you can somehow come up with about $46,697.00 more, you could
pick up one of these beauties...

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?lang...

Quote:> Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on
> issues like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types,
> FSB speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

I know people who would swear by AMD, but if I had my choice between the
two, I would pick Intel.  No reason, just personal preference.

Of course, now that we use a REAL OS, we are not limited by PC only, so in
reality you could expand your horizons to other architectures as well.

Quote:> I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
> closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

From what I have read, depending on the task, AMD can outperform an
equivelant intel chip, plus they have the additional benefit of being a
bit less expensive, so you can get more bang for your buck.

That said, I would still stick with Intel if given the choice.

Quote:> How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
> speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
> similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
> motherboard?

No reference there.

Quote:> I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as
> well with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and
> Cannon Smash crashes.

I am using an ATI Radeon 7000, and it is working just great with the stock
XF86 drivers.  Full 3D, hardware acceleration, xVideo etc.  Then again, I
am not much of a gamer.  About the most intensive thing I do on a regular
basis is watch a movie or two.

I can play fullscreen Tuxracer without the slightest bit of  jerkiness
though.

Quote:> Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It
> seems to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't
> heard of the company before.

No idea.  You may want to look at tigerdirect, they usually have some
pretty good deals.  Also egghead, though they tend to be a tad expensive,
they do have good stuff.

Both have excellent shipping options and prices.

Quote:> Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
> instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
> marketing hype.

IMHO, concentrate on MOBO, CPU, RAM, HDD's, PS and Chassis, in that order
.  Everything else is ancillary and you can always swap out what you have
currently. Allocating more funds to the items higher on the list will
ensure that you have a decent system to run a decent OS on.

--
rapskat -  12:30am  up 31 days,  2:20,  3 users,  load average: 0.43, 0.25, 0.14
122 processes: 118 sleeping, 3 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states:  0.0% user,  0.0% system,  0.1% nice,  0.0% idle

Many hands make light work.
                -- John Heywood

$1000 is quite a bit of cash for a good home system. I would go AMD and go
with a ASUS board and ASUS NVidia card.

http://usa.asus.com/mb/socketa/a7v333/overview.htm

Avoid PC400 RAM. The signal integrity of DDR-1 craps out
at about 333, and by 400 you're playing a balancing act with
the specific motherboard and modules.  With two mobos and
two modules, you might be able to get both mobos working with
a particular module, then you switch and neither does.

Stick with 333 until the DDR-2 systems hit mainstream in 2004.

D. C. Sessions
Chair, JEDEC JC-16
Committee on Electrical Interfaces
(We do the SI work for the DRAM standards.)

--
|      In the course of every project there comes a time        |
|         when the best de* is a can of gasoline.          |

Quote:> My dad and I are in the market for a new system, and I've realized that in
> getting used to the software end of things, I've neglected hardware.  I've
> got about $1000 to spend, a little more for shipping.

> Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on issues
> like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types, FSB
> speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

> I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
> closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

> How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
> speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
> similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
> motherboard?

> I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as well
> with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and Cannon
> Smash crashes.

> Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It seems
> to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't heard of
> the company before.

> Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
> instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
> marketing hype.

> --
> Nucleon, RLU #278930, <http://counter.li.org/>

> Oh, yeah, that's how it always starts:  "Ooh, ahh," but then there's the
> running, and the screaming.
>   -Malcom, The Lost World

After looking everywhere, I ordered a custom-built system from
www.tech-broker.com

At mwave.com, you can get 2.4G P4 w/1Gig RAM for that.  Of course it depends
on your priorities, do you want a $300 video card?

Quote:

> Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on issues
> like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types, FSB
> speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

I'm no expert, but basically:

1.  Front-side bus measures speed twixt CPU and RAM.  As in all things,
    more is better.  A P3 tops out (I believe) at 133Mhz on the FSB,
    while the P4 will drive 533Mhz.

2.  DDR is faster generally than SDRAM, because the DDR means
    "double data rate".  not being an expert, I tend to assume there is
    something in there actually doubled, but I never assume it means
    some kind of exact magic doubling of throughput.

3.  Linux is more dependent upon the CPU-RAM connection than on CPU
    speed, so splitting hair on CPU performance is not nearly as
    important as loading up on RAM and paying out for the FSB.  

4.  Just like the RAM/CPU connection, the cache on the CPU is extremely
    important.  The more the better.

5.  There are REAL differences between AMD and Intel, which you may not
    discover until too late.  For instance, vmware 3.0 will not run on
    my AMD K6/2-500's, but will run on a P3.

Based on these points, my own conclusion was:

1.  Stick with Intel
2.  Forget Celeron, worst of both worlds
3.  P3 is when I want the MOBO/CPU/128MB RAM to come in as low as
    $175.00.
4.  P4 is when I have $300.00 for the MOBO/CPU, and hundreds more
    for 512MB or even 1G of error correcting faster RAM

Quote:

> I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
> closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

> How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
> speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
> similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
> motherboard?

> I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as well
> with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and Cannon
> Smash crashes.

> Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It seems
> to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't heard of
> the company before.

> Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
> instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
> marketing hype.

--
Ken

SDRAM transfers data on rising clock edges.
DDR transfers data on both edges of the clock,
which is forwarded (source-synchronous) from
the sending device in strict phase with the data,
so that path delays affect both clock and strobe
equally.

The net result is that with a clock frequency of 133 MHz,
an SDRAM system does 133 million transfers per second (MT/s)
while a DDR system does 367 million transfers per second.

HTH.  HAND.

--
|      In the course of every project there comes a time        |
|         when the best de* is a can of gasoline.          |

So far so good, but this part:

Quote:> which is forwarded (source-synchronous) from
> the sending device in strict phase with the data,
> so that path delays affect both clock and strobe
> equally.

Kind of came across as:

Quote:> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah blah blah blah.

what do you mean by forwarded in strict phase with the data?  And clock and
strobe?  Clock I assume is a sawtooth, nice and steady, but what is strobe?

Quote:

> The net result is that with a clock frequency of 133 MHz,
> an SDRAM system does 133 million transfers per second (MT/s)
> while a DDR system does 367 million transfers per second.

> HTH.  HAND.

--
Ken

On Monday 28 October 2002 23:09, Nucleon drooled:

Quote:> My dad and I are in the market for a new system, and I've realized that in
> getting used to the software end of things, I've neglected hardware.  I've
> got about $1000 to spend, a little more for shipping.

> Anyway, you all seem to know your stuff, so what's your opinion on issues
> like:  Intel vs AMD (can I trust AMD's 2400+ ratings), RAM types, FSB
> speeds, graphics cards, Linmodems, etc.?

> I was under the impression that AMD actually was a little faster, and
> closer to it's "+" ratings than to the real speed.  Is this true?

> How much better is PC333 than PC400 RAM?  And what's the deal with FSB
> speeds?  AMD seems to have 200/233, while Intel claims 533, but are they
> similar in practice?  Does anyone have horror stories about some new
> motherboard?

> I've had good luck with nVidia cards and Linux support, will I do as well
> with ATI?  An old Radeon of mine works, but Tux is all white, and Cannon
> Smash crashes.

> Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with iBuyPower?  It seems
> to be amoung the cheapest systems I've configured, but I haven't heard of
> the company before.

> Sorry, I promise never to ask another "Which is the best?" question
> instead of doing my homework, but real experiences are often better than
> marketing hype.

Just look on www.compgeeks.com under systems and get what you can afford.  
I've get several things from there and I was pleased with my purchase.

--
Keith

'Now is the time for every man
(and woman) to use Linux!'

Clock is actually a differential square wave (two square
waves in opposite phase).  The strobe is a signal at the
same frequency as the clock, but which follows the same
signal path as the data so that their phase relationship
is very stable.  That way, any delays (e.g. speed of light)
which affect one affect the other, which allows the strobe
to be used to identify the sampling points for the data.

Hope that helps.

--
|      In the course of every project there comes a time        |
|         when the best de* is a can of gasoline.          |

Last sentence cleared it up a bit, thanks.

Quote:

> Hope that helps.

--
Ken