Very Computer

by **Dave** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 07:30:01

Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which
I installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine
(more than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which
I installed Win2kpro SP2.

The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with
him has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that
there is no previous life experience providing analogous experience
from which to draw.

I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
tackling Linux.

I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
Windows to be just as alien. FWIW.....
Dave

by **Kenneth Down** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 07:47:11

Dave: Familiarity is not ease-of-use. People think Windows is easy
because they are used to it.

Thanks for the anecdote. I always suspected it.

--ken

> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which I
> installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine (more
> than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which I
> installed Win2kpro SP2.

> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with him
> has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that there
> is no previous life experience providing analogous experience from which
> to draw.

> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
> tackling Linux.

> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

by **jackso** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:24:21

> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which I
> installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine (more
> than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which I
> installed Win2kpro SP2.

> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with him
> has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that there
> is no previous life experience providing analogous experience from which
> to draw.

> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
> tackling Linux.

> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

Actually, a really long time M$ user (say DOS or 3.1) might find Linux a
little easier to understand than a strictly WIN95/98/ME/2000/XP user.

(Hmmm, all of thoses OSes in just 6 yrs -- makes you wonder? All that
upgrading. All those MCSE certificates expiring. All those new drivers
being written for the same old hardware. All that software being
rewritten for compatibility. All those new viruses and worms. How long
can people afford to ride the same merry-go-round? Before anyone responds
to this let me just say....

BWAHAHAHAH BWAHAHAHAHA

Happy New Year,
jackson

by **Tsu Dho Nim** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:41:00

>I'm reminded constantly by the fact that
>there is no previous life experience providing analogous experience
>from which to draw.

Yes ... but anyone accustomed to using computers drags a LOT of
experience with them from their old computers, and has to figure
out which part of the experience still holds true. You can't win
either way.

Tsu Dho Nimh

It is my job to completely create professional technology
in order that we may seamlessly supply competitive data.

by **Dave** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:58:09

My wife was into computers before me. She introduced me to Win3.1.
Niether of us really mastered it. She ran DOS progs on a 286
machine--I resisted. Now my face is rarely out of the monitor. A
disease.

Of course, I took Fortran 77 on 25 MHz DOS machines in the 80s.
Looking back, more intuitive than 3.1. Compliling, machine epsilon,
obly recently have I grasped those concepts.

Not MS bashing. By this point I've used all MS OS's except ME and XP.
Win2k seems to be quite good, but I guess I'm a hack. I've built our
machines and maintain the extended family's machines; but using a Hex
editor to "get under the hood", for example ...forget it.

I look forward to trying Linux as a learning experience. It very well
may be beyond me.
Dave

Quote:>> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
>> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
>> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

>> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which I
>> installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine (more
>> than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which I
>> installed Win2kpro SP2.

>> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with him
>> has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that there
>> is no previous life experience providing analogous experience from which
>> to draw.

>> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
>> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
>> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

>> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
>> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
>> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
>> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
>> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
>> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
>> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
>> tackling Linux.

>> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
>> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

>Actually, a really long time M$ user (say DOS or 3.1) might find Linux a
>little easier to understand than a strictly WIN95/98/ME/2000/XP user.

>(Hmmm, all of thoses OSes in just 6 yrs -- makes you wonder? All that
>upgrading. All those MCSE certificates expiring. All those new drivers
>being written for the same old hardware. All that software being
>rewritten for compatibility. All those new viruses and worms. How long
>can people afford to ride the same merry-go-round? Before anyone responds
>to this let me just say....

>BWAHAHAHAH BWAHAHAHAHA

>Happy New Year,
>jackson

by **Dave** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:00:29

Quote:>Dave: Familiarity is not ease-of-use.

Indeed!

> People think Windows is easy
>because they are used to it.

>Thanks for the anecdote. I always suspected it.

>--ken

>> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
>> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
>> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.
>> ...snip..............

by **mjcr** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 13:35:06

> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which I
> installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine (more
> than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which I
> installed Win2kpro SP2.

> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with him
> has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that there
> is no previous life experience providing analogous experience from which
> to draw.

> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
> tackling Linux.

> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
environment.

Training workers for the Dos, unix, etc environments was a realitive
cinch compared with the Windows environment. Over the phone problem
analysis and resolution was a real nightmare, to the point that it meant
much more travel to client locations to solve some of the most minor
problems.

Some examples:

I got a panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". It turned out
that she had maximized the program manager group window and had by
accident created a new group windows.

I gat a call of "WordPerfect is gone", he had accidently drag-and-drop'ed
the icon for WordPerfect to a different group. Oh the joys of the
program manager (progman.exe).

I got another panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". This
time it turned out that he was logged in as supervisor and had
drag-and-drop'ed the directory that contained all of the primary
applications software to a different locations, taking down all the
client worstations dependant on the same primary fileserver as his
workstation.

Then there are the joys of accidental mouse click by someone with shaky
hands. As well as the joys of teaching people to click and double click
without moving the mouse.

Then taking the brunt of user dissatisfaction with having to learn so
many little useless details to do the same job that they did faster
before with just a few keystrokes.

--
I run Linux, no *y RedHat, Debian, Slackware, or Corel, just Linux.
May all that you wish upon me and mine be visited upon you ten fold.

by **Ian Pege** » Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:45:32

>> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
>> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
>> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

>> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which I
>> installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine (more
>> than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which I
>> installed Win2kpro SP2.

>> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with him
>> has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that there
>> is no previous life experience providing analogous experience from
>> which to draw.

>> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
>> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
>> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

>> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
>> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
>> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
>> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
>> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
>> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
>> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
>> tackling Linux.

>> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
>> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

> This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
> make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
> forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
> was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
> environment.

> Training workers for the Dos, unix, etc environments was a realitive
> cinch compared with the Windows environment. Over the phone problem
> analysis and resolution was a real nightmare, to the point that it meant
> much more travel to client locations to solve some of the most minor
> problems.

> Some examples:

> I got a panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". It turned out
> that she had maximized the program manager group window and had by
> accident created a new group windows.

> I gat a call of "WordPerfect is gone", he had accidently
> drag-and-drop'ed the icon for WordPerfect to a different group. Oh the
> joys of the program manager (progman.exe).

W98 has this feature where you can drag and drop items from the
Start/programs menu. It is possible for some people to "lose" programs by
accidentally dragging an entry and dropping it into another folder on the
menu... V. puzzling the first time it happens.

--
Ian
"He knows his onions"

by **Kenneth Down** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:40:35

>>> Inspired by a thread above, "thoughts from a Linux newbie" and my
>>> current experience with teaching my poor old Dad how to use Win2k, I'm
>>> reminded of how difficult it actually is to learn Windows.

>>> Dad has zero computer experience and was given a 486 machine on which
>>> I installed Win98. Mom and Dad got our old Pent266/192 megs machine
>>> (more than adequate for internet and e-mail) for Christmas onto which
>>> I installed Win2kpro SP2.

>>> The progress over the last 2 months, working on these machines with
>>> him has been very difficult. I'm reminded constantly by the fact that
>>> there is no previous life experience providing analogous experience
>>> from which to draw.

>>> I recall being amazed about 8 years ago when a Microsoft support guy
>>> introduced the concept of dragging a file to me! Copy and paste... all
>>> that stuff that is tertiary nature to many of us by now.

>>> Dad calls the Desktop his "Icon field". Calls all windows--"pages".
>>> Dialogue boxes are little pages--logically so. Thinks Google is a
>>> permanent feature of Internet Explorer. He's pulling out of this now,
>>> scratching at that threshold where it all makes some sense, but though
>>> I'm just in the process of only downloading the Mandrake 8.1 ISO, I am
>>> reminded that Windows is not automatically the idiot proof, perfectly
>>> intuitive OS a Win-veteran/Linux newbie may think it is in the face of
>>> tackling Linux.

>>> I suspect that someone who has been a long time Linux user would find
>>> Windows to be just as alien. FWIW..... Dave

>> This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
>> make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
>> forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
>> was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
>> environment.

>> Training workers for the Dos, unix, etc environments was a realitive
>> cinch compared with the Windows environment. Over the phone problem
>> analysis and resolution was a real nightmare, to the point that it
>> meant much more travel to client locations to solve some of the most
>> minor problems.

>> Some examples:

>> I got a panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". It turned
>> out that she had maximized the program manager group window and had by
>> accident created a new group windows.

>> I gat a call of "WordPerfect is gone", he had accidently
>> drag-and-drop'ed the icon for WordPerfect to a different group. Oh the
>> joys of the program manager (progman.exe).

> W98 has this feature where you can drag and drop items from the
> Start/programs menu. It is possible for some people to "lose" programs
> by accidentally dragging an entry and dropping it into another folder on
> the menu... V. puzzling the first time it happens.

How about that bizarre problem where entire folders "disappear." You
later find that a sporadic click-and-drag has dropped it somewhere!
Amazing.

--Ken

by **Erik Funkenbusc** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 05:01:18

Quote:> This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
> make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
> forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
> was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
> environment.

The difference here is that with Windows, you usually need to teach people
something once, for one program, and they can apply it to all programs. Is
that true of Linux? Does vi and emacs work the same? Does Elm and Pine work
the same? Does using a KDE app automatically transfer to a gnome app?

That's not to say inconsistencies don't exist in windows, but they are a lot
less often and a lot less obvious than under Linux.

Quote:> I got a panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". It turned out
> that she had maximized the program manager group window and had by
> accident created a new group windows.

Which is why this is no longer possible.

Quote:> I gat a call of "WordPerfect is gone", he had accidently drag-and-drop'ed
> the icon for WordPerfect to a different group. Oh the joys of the
> program manager (progman.exe).

Again, not an issue for years.

Quote:> I got another panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". This
> time it turned out that he was logged in as supervisor and had
> drag-and-drop'ed the directory that contained all of the primary
> applications software to a different locations, taking down all the
> client worstations dependant on the same primary fileserver as his
> workstation.

I don't understand your description of this problem.

Quote:> Then there are the joys of accidental mouse click by someone with shaky
> hands. As well as the joys of teaching people to click and double click
> without moving the mouse.

Then you are teaching them to do the wrong thing. Instead, you should teach
them to single click and use the Enter key to launch. This would be much
simpler, and of course more recent versions of the OS provide a "single click
to launch" option.

Quote:> Then taking the brunt of user dissatisfaction with having to learn so
> many little useless details to do the same job that they did faster
> before with just a few keystrokes.

They have shaky hands, but they can type fast?

by **Erik Funkenbusc** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 05:03:15

> W98 has this feature where you can drag and drop items from the
> Start/programs menu. It is possible for some people to "lose" programs by
> accidentally dragging an entry and dropping it into another folder on the
> menu... V. puzzling the first time it happens.

This was a response to criticism that the start menu didn't act like the rest
of the OS, you couldn't drag things to the start menu or move them around by
dragging them. Now you complain because they listened to the complaints.

by **Joe Potte** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 06:07:57

>> This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
>> make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
>> forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
>> was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
>> environment.

> The difference here is that with Windows, you usually need to teach
> people something once, for one program, and they can apply it to all
> programs. Is that true of Linux? Does vi and emacs work the same? Does
> Elm and Pine work the same? Does using a KDE app automatically transfer
> to a gnome app?

> That's not to say inconsistencies don't exist in windows, but they are a
> lot less often and a lot less obvious than under Linux.

Are you trying to say that the mail protion of Outlook, Forte Agent,
Lotus Notes, Opera, and so forth --- are *uniform* ????

Get a grip man. The OS can not demand that every app look and feel the
same. And only a USSR lover would want that.

--
Regards, Joe
Registered Linux User 225822
Man is a bundle of habits, Windows is a bundle of bad habits.

by **Charlie Ebe** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 06:11:34

> The difference here is that with Windows, you usually need to teach people
> something once, for one program, and they can apply it to all programs. Is
> that true of Linux? Does vi and emacs work the same? Does Elm and Pine work
> the same? Does using a KDE app automatically transfer to a gnome app?

> That's not to say inconsistencies don't exist in windows, but they are a lot
> less often and a lot less obvious than under Linux.

That's principly because Windows has less software.

And you are right, Windows does have inconsistencies.

Quote:>> I got a panicked call of "All the the programs are gone". It turned out
>> that she had maximized the program manager group window and had by
>> accident created a new group windows.

> Which is why this is no longer possible.

>> I gat a call of "WordPerfect is gone", he had accidently drag-and-drop'ed
>> the icon for WordPerfect to a different group. Oh the joys of the
>> program manager (progman.exe).

> Again, not an issue for years.

I have to laugh at the days when this guy was telling
everybody there was no cut and paste for any Linux
desktop.

That you couldn't drag and drop anything on a Linux
desktop either.

Well, it took him 2 years and he finally knocked that
bullshit off.

Anybody want to bet me he'll holler and*next
that he did not ever say those things?

--

Charlie

by **Jim Richardso** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:56:50

On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 14:01:18 -0600,

>> This is another example of what I try to remind people about when they
>> make claims about the ease of use of Windows. Many people seem to have
>> forgotten the difficulty of the Windows for many Windows neophytes. I
>> was one of those persons who had to train workers it use the Windows
>> environment.

> The difference here is that with Windows, you usually need to teach people
> something once, for one program, and they can apply it to all programs. Is
> that true of Linux? Does vi and emacs work the same? Does Elm and Pine work
> the same? Does using a KDE app automatically transfer to a gnome app?

You are being somewhat disingenous here. Vi and Emacs, Pine and Elm are
all avaible for windows.
Does pegasus mail work the same as OE? Does Eudora?

Quote:> That's not to say inconsistencies don't exist in windows, but they are a lot
> less often and a lot less obvious than under Linux.
>> Then taking the brunt of user dissatisfaction with having to learn so
>> many little useless details to do the same job that they did faster
>> before with just a few keystrokes.

> They have shaky hands, but they can type fast?

Sure, typing uses your hands when braced, you don't expect to move the
keyboard while you are typing (Or prevent it from moving.) With a mouse,
you have to hold still while you deliberately press the button. I know
my stepfather had problems with this, and he is neither stupid nor
inept.

--
Jim Richardson
Anarchist, pagan and proud of it
www.eskimo.com/~warlock
Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.

by **GreyClou** » Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:39:38

> The difference here is that with Windows, you usually need to teach people
> something once, for one program, and they can apply it to all programs.
> Is
> that true of Linux? Does vi and emacs work the same? Does Elm and Pine
> work
> the same? Does using a KDE app automatically transfer to a gnome app?

They could very well do that. Of course I find windows isn't any more
unified in doing things than linux does anyway. Use Sierra Print Artist
and then try and cut and paste into OE mail program. Won't happen.
I find under Solaris a much more consistent cut and paste paradigm with vi,
elm, pine, pico, emacs and xemacs.

Quote:> That's not to say inconsistencies don't exist in windows, but they are a
> lot less often and a lot less obvious than under Linux.

Still defending M$ again I see.
Never had a good word yet from you about linux.

Very Computer

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....

The Intuitivity of Windows--We forget.....