Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:37:30



-- java....

Look, guys. I am not exactly a newbie to the computer world (though the
knee-jerk Linxites amongst you will say that I am)....

....but it is true. Java is a crock.

Okay, maybe that's a mite overstatement of the truth. Java is not, in and
of itself, a crock. But as a user interface environment it sure as * is.

Java belongs where it is best at --- the server. It's good at marrying
together multiple disparate systems in a coherent, web-enabled way (J2EE).

But for godsakes....can we PLEASE give up this stupid-ass *ed up concept
that Java as a GUI toolkit can somehow replace Winblowz?

For Chrissakes....today I was working on a 400MHz machine with 256 MB of
ram, and it took at least 45 seconds for a stupid-ass-do-nothing Java
application to load and finish re-painting the *ing screen.

I realize 400MHz is not exactly state of the art. But it's not exactly
goddamned*poor, either. 90MHz. That's*poor. 133MHz. That's maybe
*poor. But 400?

Jeeeeeeeeeeezuschrist...................

* it.

I wish for the days of C and C++....

Read about the carnage:
http://www.*edcode.com/

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Chri » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:29:16


After takin' a swig o' grog, TomFC belched out this bit o' wisdom:

Quote:>But for godsakes....can we PLEASE give up this stupid-ass *ed up concept
>that Java as a GUI toolkit can somehow replace Winblowz?

>For Chrissakes....today I was working on a 400MHz machine with 256 MB of
>ram, and it took at least 45 seconds for a stupid-ass-do-nothing Java
>application to load and finish re-painting the *ing screen.

I agree, based on experience with our company's WebET client.
Excruciating to use.

By the way, if you look up "webet" in Google, you can sometimes
find WebET sites you can try to log into, to log some fake hours
at some company you don't work at.

Disquieting, eh?

Chris

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Anonymou » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:30:24


It's not the CPU that's the problem.
It's the enormous amount of memory the
framework uses.

I have 192MB of RAM on a 600Mhz celeron
and I can at least run the Java Swing
examples without too many problems :-)


> -- java....

> Look, guys. I am not exactly a newbie to the computer world (though the
> knee-jerk Linxites amongst you will say that I am)....

> ....but it is true. Java is a crock.

> Okay, maybe that's a mite overstatement of the truth. Java is not, in and
> of itself, a crock. But as a user interface environment it sure as * is.

> Java belongs where it is best at --- the server. It's good at marrying
> together multiple disparate systems in a coherent, web-enabled way (J2EE).

> But for godsakes....can we PLEASE give up this stupid-ass *ed up concept
> that Java as a GUI toolkit can somehow replace Winblowz?

> For Chrissakes....today I was working on a 400MHz machine with 256 MB of
> ram, and it took at least 45 seconds for a stupid-ass-do-nothing Java
> application to load and finish re-painting the *ing screen.

> I realize 400MHz is not exactly state of the art. But it's not exactly
> goddamned*poor, either. 90MHz. That's*poor. 133MHz. That's maybe
>*poor. But 400?

> Jeeeeeeeeeeezuschrist...................

> * it.

> I wish for the days of C and C++....

> Read about the carnage:
> http://www.*edcode.com/

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Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Paolo Ciambott » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:39:15




> -- java....

> Look, guys. I am not exactly a newbie to the computer world (though the
> knee-jerk Linxites amongst you will say that I am)....

> ....but it is true. Java is a crock.

Just think of it as a preview to Microsoft's C#, but without all the
security vulnerabilities. <grin>
 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by mmn.. » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:44:23


Well, don't worry, because I don't know of any popular
desktop-user-type applications that are in java.  Companies
force little timecard applications and so forth on
employees, but that is about it.

What I hate about java is that it simply never works.  The
odds of having the right version of everything properly
installed so you can actually run a program on a given
computer are next to nil.  It's not just a matter of packaging
up your program with a few shared objects, either.  Good
luck distributing the whole jvm with your program.

On a corporate server, yes.  On the  corporate destop, maybe,
if you're really organized.  Otherwise, no.  

It would be better if you could statically link java apps
with the parts of the jvm they need.  It wouldn't be platform
independent that way, and it wouldn't have the mythical benefits
of jit compilation for your specific platform, but at least it
could somewhat work.


> -- java....

> Look, guys. I am not exactly a newbie to the computer world (though the
> knee-jerk Linxites amongst you will say that I am)....

> ....but it is true. Java is a crock.

> Okay, maybe that's a mite overstatement of the truth. Java is not, in and
> of itself, a crock. But as a user interface environment it sure as *
> is.

> Java belongs where it is best at --- the server. It's good at marrying
> together multiple disparate systems in a coherent, web-enabled way (J2EE).

> But for godsakes....can we PLEASE give up this stupid-ass *ed up
> concept that Java as a GUI toolkit can somehow replace Winblowz?

<snip>
 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Craig Kelle » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:57:02



> For Chrissakes....today I was working on a 400MHz machine with 256 MB of
> ram, and it took at least 45 seconds for a stupid-ass-do-nothing Java
> application to load and finish re-painting the *ing screen.

It really depends on the application in question.  I do quite a bit of
Java development, and I have seen good Java code and bad Java code
(and good JRTs and bad JRTs); it reminds me of the early days of C.
Every one used to complain that software should be written "close to
the metal" in assembly because C compilers we so slow.  UNIX and DOS
users scoffed at the original Macintosh because it used a RAD-ish
language (pascal) that made the computer slow down to a crawl.

Look what happened in the end.  When you play on the outskirts of
technology, you're going to make many more mistakes than the
compatition (AWT, no native interface, no JIT, etc.) but that does not
mean that you're on the wrong track.  Microsoft is pretty much copying
Java with C# (take a look at the syntax sometime), and when Microsoft
and Sun are running down the same road then you may want to pay a bit
of attention.

Of course Microsoft has a *lot* of ground to cover in order to catch
up with Sun in this race.  If everything the Microsoft evangelists are
saying is true, then Microsoft is now a completely different,
benevolent, kind and open company so we should have nothing to
fear....

--
It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard


 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:48:09



> Microsoft?is?pretty?much?copying
> Java with C# (take a look at the syntax sometime),

I have not taken a close look at C# yet, but from my crude understanding it
goes way beyond anything Sun does yet. From what I understand, I can create
a class in Perl, extend it in C++, and implement it in Python. Am I wrong?

--

Read about the carnage:
http://www.*edcode.com/

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:49:44



> I agree, based on experience with our company's WebET client.
> Excruciating to use.

And that's what I mean. I think Java (JFC) on the front-end is a goddamned
joke and I really wish more people had a little bit more common sense.

Chris, tell me the truth...

Wouldn't you rather use tcl/Tk or WXWindows than use JFC? I mean....for
godsakes...you get pretty much the same "cross platform" bullshit, but for
one tenth the hassle and for ten times the performance!

--

Read about the carnage:
http://www.*edcode.com/

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:58:24



> Well, don't worry, because I don't know of any popular
> desktop-user-type applications that are in java.  Companies
> force little timecard applications and so forth on
> employees, but that is about it.

Well, today (and for the next few months) we're talking about an
"enterprise" application (god, I am so *ing tired of that word.
Enterprise. Like everything we did before was somehow "small." Like C and
Cobol and Pascal and Fortran applications didn't fit the bill.....)

We're talking about an application used to administer the multitude of J2EE
application servers out there (Weblogic, Websphere, Enhydra, etc).

Personally, I would much rather these "gui administration toolkits" ran on
something a bit more snappy than a Java GUI.

Quote:> What I hate about java is that it simply never works.  

I'm not quite sure I am ready to go that far yet, ...

Quote:> The
> odds of having the right version of everything properly
> installed so you can actually run a program on a given
> computer are next to nil.  

Mmmm. true. okay...

I mean...I kinda like Java as a language. It's okay (a bit verbose at
times, but otherwise okay). But for godsakes.....running in the JVM and
*especially* running as a GUI app.....oh, I cry........

What a waste of 400MHz....

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Chri » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:06:21


After takin' a swig o' grog, TomFC belched out this bit o' wisdom:


>Wouldn't you rather use tcl/Tk or WXWindows than use JFC? I mean....for
>godsakes...you get pretty much the same "cross platform" bullshit, but for
>one tenth the hassle and for ten times the performance!

Don't know.  Still a baby on tcl/Tk and wxWindows.

I am not fond of "foundation classes".  Don't know about JFC, but
MFC is pretty thin.  VCL is better, very efficient, but still they
base all classes on a TObject... unwise design.  Same with the
old OWL.

Actually, I like GTK+ a little, it's making me appreciate C code
again.  I'd like to see what Qt is some day.

Chris

--
"Never trust an operating system for which you
 don't have the source code."

 E pluribus UNIX

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:14:54



> By the way, if you look up "webet" in Google, you can sometimes
> find WebET sites you can try to log into, to log some fake hours
> at some company you don't work at.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!

=:-0

--

Read about the carnage:
http://www.*edcode.com/

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by TomF » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:29:57



> After takin' a swig o' grog, TomFC belched out this bit o' wisdom:

Y'know...........Chris, this is the most accurate intro line I have seen on
any newsgroup. I most certainly did swig grog (vodka martinis) before
posting today....

Quote:> Don't know.  Still a baby on tcl/Tk and wxWindows.

I will admit to the same, Chris.

Quote:> I am not fond of "foundation classes".  

Mmmm. Agreed. Neither am I. But I think, from what I have seen, wxWindows
and tcl/Tk are pretty mighty and lean.

Quote:> Actually, I like GTK+ a little, it's making me appreciate C code
> again.  I'd like to see what Qt is some day.

Yeah. I know what you mean. I was farting around with some GTK code today
and GTK+. It's cool.

I like C, too.

Lean. Clean....powerful and fast....

--

Read about the carnage:
http://www.*edcode.com/

 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by pip » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 19:51:32



> -- java....

> Look, guys. I am not exactly a newbie to the computer world (though the
> knee-jerk Linxites amongst you will say that I am)....

> ....but it is true. Java is a crock.

Don't post this shit here. Go to the Java advocacy ng.

Quote:> Okay, maybe that's a mite overstatement of the truth. Java is not, in and
> of itself, a crock. But as a user interface environment it sure as * is.

Which one? Swing or AWT ?

Quote:

> But for godsakes....can we PLEASE give up this stupid-ass *ed up concept
> that Java as a GUI toolkit can somehow replace Winblowz?

Who said it was. Anyway, use the win32 API from Java if you are that
concerned (there are wrappers around).

Quote:> For Chrissakes....today I was working on a 400MHz machine with 256 MB of
> ram, and it took at least 45 seconds for a stupid-ass-do-nothing Java
> application to load and finish re-painting the *ing screen.

Then the application is shit.

Quote:> I realize 400MHz is not exactly state of the art. But it's not exactly
> goddamned*poor, either. 90MHz. That's*poor. 133MHz. That's maybe
>*poor. But 400?

> Jeeeeeeeeeeezuschrist...................

> * it.

> I wish for the days of C and C++....

Just use it then and keep to it. FFS, stop slagging off something you
obviously know nothing about.
 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by pip » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:03:15



> After takin' a swig o' grog, TomFC belched out this bit o' wisdom:


> >Wouldn't you rather use tcl/Tk or WXWindows than use JFC? I mean....for
> >godsakes...you get pretty much the same "cross platform" bullshit, but for
> >one tenth the hassle and for ten times the performance!

> Don't know.  Still a baby on tcl/Tk and wxWindows.

> I am not fond of "foundation classes".  Don't know about JFC, but
> MFC is pretty thin.  

JFC provides you with a huge toolkit of options for you to use - of
course you are never actually compelled to do so. I just don't see the
problem in toolkits that save us coding - it gives us extra choice and
really does save a lot of time.
 
 
 

Java as a GUI framework.....give me a goddamned break....

Post by Chri » Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:43:46


After takin' a swig o' grog, pip belched out this bit o' wisdom:


>> After takin' a swig o' grog, TomFC belched out this bit o' wisdom:


>> >Wouldn't you rather use tcl/Tk or WXWindows than use JFC? I mean....for
>> >godsakes...you get pretty much the same "cross platform" bullshit, but for
>> >one tenth the hassle and for ten times the performance!

>> Don't know.  Still a baby on tcl/Tk and wxWindows.

>> I am not fond of "foundation classes".  Don't know about JFC, but
>> MFC is pretty thin.  

>JFC provides you with a huge toolkit of options for you to use - of
>course you are never actually compelled to do so. I just don't see the
>problem in toolkits that save us coding - it gives us extra choice and
>really does save a lot of time.

True enough.  Sometimes, though, the frameworks present you with a
large learning curve if you want to do more than just the things
they make convenient.  For example, when I was using OWL (Borland's
obsolete foundation class hierarchy), it was of no help in trying to
change the color of a stock windows button.  In Borland's current
foundation, they draw their own buttons (I think), so changing the
colors is just a property setting or assignment operator.

But, VCL itself was of no help in learning in inner workings of
sockets, and the TSocket stuff had a couple of internal tricks
we had to discover.  In this particular case, I now wish we had
started with C code.

Chris

--
"Never trust an operating system for which you
 don't have the source code."

 E pluribus UNIX

 
 
 

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