Very Computer

by **john bai** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:34:34

ok, here's one for you --

i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?
ok, so the whole argument of the pc's having a common operating system
is so that they could talk to each other, right .... well, isn't that
like completely forgetting what the internet was invented for ? like
did pc software companies ( read:ms ) just forget about 20 years of
history when they came up with the argument for windows?

isn't it not like linux vs. windows but like who cares? arent the
real standards tcp/ip and xml and all that and if i could create an os
out of sawdust and it spoke tcp/ip and made files in xml -- then so
what

by **alt** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:55:53

> ok, here's one for you --

> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?
> ok, so the whole argument of the pc's having a common operating
> system is so that they could talk to each other, right .... well,
> isn't that
> like completely forgetting what the internet was invented for ?
> like did pc software companies ( read:ms ) just forget about 20
> years of history when they came up with the argument for windows?

> isn't it not like linux vs. windows but like who cares? arent the
> real standards tcp/ip and xml and all that and if i could create an
> os out of sawdust and it spoke tcp/ip and made files in xml -- then
> so what

The problem is in philosophy.

Microsoft wants you to buy only their software. They are not
interested in compatibility except when they have to be compatible.

The OSS/Linux community is interested in compatibility. They have
nothing to gain by destroying cross-system compatibility.

It comes down to money vs. freedom.

--
Donovan Hill
Linux: Because you can!
All rise for the Microsoft Anthem: "BAAAA!"
"Micheal, I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing and it was
everything that I thought it could be." - Peter, Office Space

by **Erik Funkenbusc** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:15:40

> ok, here's one for you --

> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?

Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
network compromised.

by **Linonu** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 03:13:03

After takin' a swig o' grog, john bailo belched out this bit o' wisdom:

Quote:> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?
> ok, so the whole argument of the pc's having a common operating system
> is so that they could talk to each other, right .... well, isn't that
> like completely forgetting what the internet was invented for ? like
> did pc software companies ( read:ms ) just forget about 20 years of
> history when they came up with the argument for windows?

MS lagged wayyyy behind the rest of the computing world, in both
software and the hardware it could support. They managed to kill off
the competition, pretty much, and were thus able to get away with
lowering the standards of software, especially of OS software.

Now along comes Linux, and about all Microsoft has left as weapon is
file formats and half-documented protocols.

Chris

--

by **Roy Cull** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 02:46:16

>> ok, here's one for you --

>> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
>> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
>> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
>> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
>> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
>> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?

> Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
> which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
> network compromised.

Uhh.. wrong. IP was developed to overcome the problem that there was
no protocol standard for computers connected to the ARPAnet.

"self-healing"? Hardly. IP was required to find alternate routes when
a node went down. Hardly "self-healing".

by **GreyClou** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:06:54

> >> ok, here's one for you --

> >> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
> >> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
> >> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
> >> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
> >> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
> >> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?

> > Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
> > which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
> > network compromised.

> Uhh.. wrong. IP was developed to overcome the problem that there was
> no protocol standard for computers connected to the ARPAnet.

> "self-healing"? Hardly. IP was required to find alternate routes when
> a node went down. Hardly "self-healing".

Ewik really doesn't know what the DOD meant by
self-healing... it was in the event of an all out nuclear
exchange to have the internet survive so that a regrouping
of efforts and continued communications could continue over
what communications links were left after the fact. It's not
"self-healing", but reroutable and maintainable.

by **Charlie Eber** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 06:53:41

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>> >> ok, here's one for you --

>> >> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
>> >> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
>> >> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
>> >> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
>> >> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
>> >> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?

>> > Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
>> > which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
>> > network compromised.

>> Uhh.. wrong. IP was developed to overcome the problem that there was
>> no protocol standard for computers connected to the ARPAnet.

>> "self-healing"? Hardly. IP was required to find alternate routes when
>> a node went down. Hardly "self-healing".

> Ewik really doesn't know what the DOD meant by
> self-healing... it was in the event of an all out nuclear
> exchange to have the internet survive so that a regrouping
> of efforts and continued communications could continue over
> what communications links were left after the fact. It's not
> "self-healing", but reroutable and maintainable.

Yes,

Thank you all again.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be too busy
clubbing rabbits after my nuclear holocaust to notice my
internet is down.

When they dreamed this all up, they should have put a
clause in there, "Eberts may club rabbits if they don't
feel like rerouting their nuked world"

They invent the net in the 70's and all these 50's
feelings come into all these documents.

DUCK AND COVER!!!! OH YEAHHHH!!!

We were really crazy back then weren't we.
The world was just out of their goards.

Charlie

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by **GreyClou** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:03:26

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> Hash: SHA1

> >> >> ok, here's one for you --

> >> >> i was just reading about the history of the internet -- and how the
> >> >> whole point of it was that the DoD was forced -- by regulation -- to
> >> >> buy computers from all these different manufacturers -- and after a
> >> >> while they had all these interoperability problems....soo...the
> >> >> invented the internet so all the computers had a common language to
> >> >> speak to each other with...ok, so that language is tcp/ip -- right ?

> >> > Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
> >> > which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
> >> > network compromised.

> >> Uhh.. wrong. IP was developed to overcome the problem that there was
> >> no protocol standard for computers connected to the ARPAnet.

> >> "self-healing"? Hardly. IP was required to find alternate routes when
> >> a node went down. Hardly "self-healing".

> > Ewik really doesn't know what the DOD meant by
> > self-healing... it was in the event of an all out nuclear
> > exchange to have the internet survive so that a regrouping
> > of efforts and continued communications could continue over
> > what communications links were left after the fact. It's not
> > "self-healing", but reroutable and maintainable.

> Yes,

> Thank you all again.

> I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be too busy
> clubbing rabbits after my nuclear holocaust to notice my
> internet is down.

> When they dreamed this all up, they should have put a
> clause in there, "Eberts may club rabbits if they don't
> feel like rerouting their nuked world"

> They invent the net in the 70's and all these 50's
> feelings come into all these documents.

> DUCK AND COVER!!!! OH YEAHHHH!!!

> We were really crazy back then weren't we.
> The world was just out of their goards.

No arguments there. I was just a young buck when the
pentagon officials made these decisions. I think the
military were the ones looking to their own survival.

by **Linonu** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:21:25

After takin' a swig o' grog, Charlie Ebert belched out this bit o' wisdom:

Quote:> I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be too busy
> clubbing rabbits after my nuclear holocaust to notice my
> internet is down.

> When they dreamed this all up, they should have put a
> clause in there, "Eberts may club rabbits if they don't
> feel like rerouting their nuked world"

> They invent the net in the 70's and all these 50's
> feelings come into all these documents.

> DUCK AND COVER!!!! OH YEAHHHH!!!

> We were really crazy back then weren't we.
> The world was just out of their goards.

IN THE EVENT OF A NUCLEAR ATTACK

Move away from all doors and windows, into the center of the building.

Find a strong solid wall.

Sit down on the floor facing the wall.

Curl up and place your head between your legs and your hands over your
head.

Then kiss your ass goodbye.

(My shaky remembrance of a poster I saw lonnnng ago.)

by **Mike** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:59:46

> > Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
> > which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of
the
> > network compromised.

> Uhh.. wrong. IP was developed to overcome the problem that there was
> no protocol standard for computers connected to the ARPAnet.

> "self-healing"? Hardly. IP was required to find alternate routes when
> a node went down. Hardly "self-healing".

Isn't that precisely what is meant by self-healing in this case? The network
is self-healing, not the node that failed.

-- Mike --

by **flatfish++** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 18:03:24

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> Yes,

> Thank you all again.

> I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to be too busy
> clubbing rabbits after my nuclear holocaust to notice my
> internet is down.

> When they dreamed this all up, they should have put a
> clause in there, "Eberts may club rabbits if they don't
> feel like rerouting their nuked world"

> They invent the net in the 70's and all these 50's
> feelings come into all these documents.

> DUCK AND COVER!!!! OH YEAHHHH!!!

> We were really crazy back then weren't we.
> The world was just out of their goards.

> Charlie

As a kid growing up in NYC in the 1960's I rememember the "Duck and Cover"
routine quite well.

Even then, somehow, someway I thought to myself "this is bullshit".
There was no way a rickity desk was going to protect me when an 8 story
concrete building fell down on me.
Not to mention the radiation.

Personally I think all the redundent internet stuff is a moot point
when some terrorist sends a well placed missle toward a major
node in the nations power grid.

by **Mike** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:47:32

> > DUCK AND COVER!!!! OH YEAHHHH!!!

> As a kid growing up in NYC in the 1960's I rememember the "Duck and Cover"
> routine quite well.

> Even then, somehow, someway I thought to myself "this is bullshit".
> There was no way a rickity desk was going to protect me when an 8 story
> concrete building fell down on me.
> Not to mention the radiation.

We practiced the duck and cover stuff when I was in kindergarten. The first
time an alarm went off, I got under my desk, just like we'd practiced.

Except... it was a fire alarm...

-- Mike --

by **paul cook** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:46:37

in comp.os.linux.advocacy to propose the following:

Quote:> Personally I think all the redundent internet stuff is a moot point
> when some terrorist sends a well placed missle toward a major
> node in the nations power grid.

Diesel UPS generators... and standby batteries to cover the startup
period... You don't think that major nodes are powered purely via the
electricity supplier now do you. Also telephone exchanges have massive
banks of batteries to enable the system to carry on running whilst their
standby gennies are coming on line. Ordinary users may not be able to
connect unless they have got their own UPS or little Honda generator to
run their computer on, but the telephone network will still work when
the mains is off. The government installations will still be online.

--
Paul Cooke
Registered Linux user 273897 Machine registration number 156819
Linux Counter: Home Page = http://counter.li.org/

by **john bai** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:34:44

> Uhh.. wrong. TCP/IP was the result of an initiative to build a network
> which was "self-healing" that could survive even with massive parts of the
> network compromised.

well unfortunately the recent attack on the top level domain servers
for dns shows how very much the internet is a hierarchical ( i.e.,
vulnerable at the top) network as opposed to this free-floating
distributed system....

i never realized that 13 ( thir* !!) servers are responsible for
addressing the billion plus users of the internet !

dns is a database right ? did people ever hear of relational
technology ? mirroring? replication?

and just what are these 13 dns servers? how fast are they ? what os
do they run? what software ? are they fast enough? shouldnt they
be on supercomputers ? and so on and so on ....

by **GreyClou** » Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:07:56

> in comp.os.linux.advocacy to propose the following:

> > Personally I think all the redundent internet stuff is a moot point
> > when some terrorist sends a well placed missle toward a major
> > node in the nations power grid.

> Diesel UPS generators... and standby batteries to cover the startup
> period... You don't think that major nodes are powered purely via the
> electricity supplier now do you. Also telephone exchanges have massive
> banks of batteries to enable the system to carry on running whilst their
> standby gennies are coming on line. Ordinary users may not be able to
> connect unless they have got their own UPS or little Honda generator to
> run their computer on, but the telephone network will still work when
> the mains is off. The government installations will still be online.

Correct. The Pentagon people didn't ignore any of these
things, as after all they do want to win and survive. But
better yet, in case of natural disasters like earthquakes
and such.