Very Computer

You should read the findings of fact in the court case. Not the appelate
court upheld those findings and dismissed the penalty as not being
effective. Most companies like Dell, Compaq etc have to pay for windows
wether they load it on the machine or not. So with linux you are paying for
windows and linux so it costs more in many cases.

The smaller companies can't get prices as low because they don't do enough
volume to get the discounts. What I have seen happen in a number of
companies is computers are bought from dell with windows installed in the
rack and formatted on first boot to have linux installed on them. They
didn't care about Dell tech support etc.

Quote:> Before you start telling us all about Compaq and Dell try calling them
> and asking them about Linux pre-load sales and see what kind of answer
> you get.
> I got dead silence on the end of the phone.

Hmm I trust we have called the same Dell. I got a good deal of iterest on
the other end of the line about it. Dell has been doing a good job shipping
linux based servers on both rackmounts, and tower servers.

Quote:> http://www.valinux.com/about/news/releases/062701.html

> Soon it's going to be RedHat and IBM and maybe SuSE in Europe and that
> will be it.

> That will also be the end of the GPL.

Hmm this is a logical error. Nothing valinux can do will affect the GPL in
the slightest. You must elaborate a lot more on why you think this will end
the GPL.

Quote:

> flatfish+++
> "Why do they call it a flatfish?"

On Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:28:24 GMT, flatfish+++ dashed off:

Quote:> Soon it's going to be RedHat and IBM and maybe SuSE in Europe and that
> will be it.

> That will also be the end of the GPL.

Flattie, you're so clueless it's sad.

How was the GPL going before RedHat, IBM, SUSE and VA systems ?

Linux is *not* a commercial entity and your Wintroll rules don't
apply.

You should be asking yourself if the yearly fee of $400 odd for
XP Office is within your budget.

--
Kind Regards from Terry
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.  
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/          
** Registration Number: 103931,  http://counter.li.org **

I'd like to hear your explanation as how you think you know more about
Dell than I do.  I work for Dell.

If you want to talk about loss of jobs, let's talk about the layoffs that
have occurred at Dell.  Do you have ANY IDEA how many people have been
layed off from Dell??

Secondly, Linux has gained FAR more respect in Dell's server support
dep't than has Windows.   Windows is the common subject of jokes and
ridicule around the dep't, as well as in the Network OS support dep't.

C'mon, flatty, give us your "informed" opinion about Dell.

Bracy

Quote:> I go to buy a car and I am undecided between a Ford Mustang GT and A
> Chevy Camaro. The price is similar but then the Ford dealer tells me
> that his car cost more because he has to pay extra dollars to Firestone
> for that exploding tire lawsuit they are involved in.

> My choice?
> The Mustang is overpriced, give me the Camaro.

Terrible analogy skills.  More accurate:

Ford dealer says he can sell you a camaro cheaper because if he sells you
a ford, he still has to pay chevy for a camaro anyway.

yes, it seems the camaro is cheaper, but then you read the sales agreement
and find that you have to upgrade your camaro every two years or face
stiff licensing penalties.

Wait a minute - licensing?!  I bought this damn car!

No you didn't you slack-jawed moron - you leased it.  Surprise!   And have
a look at the paltry maximum mileage allowances, the insurance fine print
that covers NOTHING, and the non-transferrable nature of your leased
vehicle, etc etc etc.

And you can't take your camaro to the local mechanic.  if you have a
problem, send chevy a letter, and maybe in six to eigh* months they'll
get back to you.

Don't forget that you can only drive on chevy-approved roads.  well,
that's not entirely accurate.  if you find yourself on a non-approved
road, you can get onto an approved one - but the route you take is
one-way, and you cannot go back from whence you came.

Imagine your surprise when you realize that the car stereo you bought, the
air freshener dangling from your rearview mirror, and even the little
*ing dog in the back window that bobs its head around while you drive -
none of them will work in any other car.

Neither will your radar detector - and for some reason you can't divine,
it beams information back to chevy every now and then.

And last but not least, when you take your chevy to the local hang-out,
everyone points at you and calls you a dork because you believed chevy's
pack of lies.

Finally, you realize that the Ford wasn't such a bad deal.

Quote:> That is probably true, but my point was how many Linux pre-loads are
> being sold, not how many machines have Linux installed on them.

And we're telling you why that is, which is infinitely more useful than
the anchorless fact you state.

Quote:> Of course not.
> Va Linux is in the last stages of rigor mortis. I said IBM and Redhat.
> You are not reading properly again.

Even if that were true, what does that have to do with GPL?

Quote:> It's going to become an IBM/Redhat Linux world real soon and as soon as
> IBM starts churning out commercial applications that blow the doors off
> of the *freeware that is out there for Linsux, that will be the end
> of the GPL.
> Sure the OS will be GPL but nobody is going to use the free *when
> they are willing to pay for commercial quality applications in the IBM
> tradition.

Your mistakes are as follows:

1)  You are mixing COMMODITY software with SPECIALIZED software.  I
guarantee you that if someone tries to sell commodity software at an
artificuially high price, it will die, and its place will be taken by free
software.  On the other hand, if the software is specialized and highly
complex, then the developers of that software can make a killing.

It's just the mundane stuff that a lot of people use every day that gets
commoditized.  Like operating systems, office packages, web servers, file
servers, firewalls, graphics programs, digital camera software, web
browsers, mail readers, programming languages, development environments,
audio and video players, p2p file sharing utilities, news readers, system
maintenance and configuration utilities,  ...

well, i could go on but you might want to take a look around on the
internet for a more complete list.

2)  You presume that GPL and commercial software cannot co-exist.  Of
course they can.

Quote:> It will put a gigantic dent in open source software. And it will be
> IBM's way of getting back into the software market at MS's expense.

> Redhat will be in bed with IBM and they will both make out like

thieves.

If you don't like IBM and Red Hat, why not just state it in a nice
economical one-line message instead of backing it up with senseless and
irrelevant mental meanderings?

Face it, the GPL and free software are in ascendancy.  Maybe your
livelihood depends on proprietary commodity software, or maybe you bought
into MS stock when it was above $100.  All your whining and spreading of
misinformation cannot stop the tide of history and simple economics.  Do
yourself a favor - cut your losses, squint your eyes, come out of your
cave, and face the dawn of a new day.

Its not convoluted at all. It is per system pricing. The vendor has to
pay for a window$ license even if the computer ships with a bare HD.
So,a LInux install has the same OS cost as a window$ instal

Quote:> I go to buy a car and I am undecided between a Ford Mustang GT and A
> Chevy Camaro. The price is similar but then the Ford dealer tells me
> that his car cost more because he has to pay extra dollars to
> Firestone for that exploding tire lawsuit they are involved in.

> My choice?
> The Mustang is overpriced, give me the Camaro.

> Bottom line is people don't give a shit who has to pay who for what.
> They walk into a store and say I want a 1ghz with 512meg etc what's
> the price. The best deal wins and who cares about Linux.

The people that want Linux installed.

Quote:> And even still the idiot can buy a Windows machine and wipe out
> Windows and install his own copy of Linux and STILL pay less.

... and you are still paying for a window$ license.

Quote:> >The smaller companies can't get prices as low because they don't do enough
> >volume to get the discounts. What I have seen happen in a number of
> >companies is computers are bought from dell with windows installed in the
> >rack and formatted on first boot to have linux installed on them. They
> >didn't care about Dell tech support etc.

> That is probably true, but my point was how many Linux pre-loads are
> being sold, not how many machines have Linux installed on them.

The number of Linux pre-loads is going up.

Quote:> >> Before you start telling us all about Compaq and Dell try calling them
> >> and asking them about Linux pre-load sales and see what kind of answer
> >> you get.
> >> I got dead silence on the end of the phone.

> >Hmm I trust we have called the same Dell. I got a good deal of iterest on
> >the other end of the line about it. Dell has been doing a good job shipping
> >linux based servers on both rackmounts, and tower servers.

> I called their desktop support Line. I don't debate Linux as a server
> OS, it is good for that.
> I speak about home user/desktop.

I use Linux at home.

Quote:> >> http://www.veryComputer.com/

> >Hmm this is a logical error. Nothing valinux can do will affect the GPL in
> >the slightest. You must elaborate a lot more on why you think this will end
> >the GPL.

> Of course not.
> Va Linux is in the last stages of rigor mortis. I said IBM and Redhat.
> You are not reading properly again.

Just becasuse VA Linux has stopped shipping hardware does not mean they
are going out of business. You might want to look at the rest of the
economy and see who is laying of employess and issuing earnings
warnings.

Quote:> It's going to become an IBM/Redhat Linux world real soon and as soon
> as IBM starts churning out commercial applications that blow the doors
> off of the *freeware that is out there for Linsux, that will be
> the end of the GPL.

Since Linux (the kernel) and almost of the present apps are GPLed, I
doubt it will die.

Quote:> Sure the OS will be GPL but nobody is going to use the free *when
> they are willing to pay for commercial quality applications in the IBM
> tradition.

KOffice is not crap. Neiother is Open Office, GIMP, xmms, gnumeric, ..
etc.

Quote:> It will put a gigantic dent in open source software.

Doubtful. The people using Open software would continue to use Open
Software.

Quote:> And it will be IBM's way of getting back into the software market at
> MS's expense.

GOOD!

Quote:> Redhat will be in bed with IBM and they will both make out like
> thieves.

If IBM supports Linux (or other Open Source OS/apps), we will all be
better off.

Oh, I see.  You've decided to change the subject to "desktop sales."
Look again at your opening post, you didn't mention the word "desktop"
once throughout the entire post.  Instead, you used the word "pre-load"
which includes server as well as desktop.

I can agree that Linux is not yet ready to take on Windows as a desktop
OS, but it's very close to being there.  Remember than Apple released the
Macintosh in 1984, and Microsoft did not come out with Desktop OS that
was comparable until 1995 -- 11 years later.  Windows 3.x was certainly
NOT comparable to the Macintosh.  Gnome and KDE began life around 1998
and they're progressing far more rapidly than Windows has.

Quote:> Just about enough to make certain the stockholders make a profit. Would
> you like to talk about how many min wage people were hired to replace
> the "high salaried" people that were layed off?

Yes, let's talk about them.  Minimum wage?  Why haven't I met any of
these minimum wage workers?  I guarantee you're not going to find anyone
supporting Dell's server hardware for minimum wage.

Quote:> Or prehaps we can talk about IBM which just laid off 1500 IGS workers,
> but are still actively persuing H1b Visa candidates. Same thing.

Both Dell and IBM sell products with Windows pre-loaded, so I don't
understand what point you are trying to make here.  You're trying to make
it look like VA Linux has fallen under hard times because they're in the
Linux business, when there are plenty of companies in the Windows market
who are also under hard times.   This is what happens when an industry is
controlled by a monopoly:  the industry becomes stagnant.  Nothing new
and revolutionary is being produced to entice customers to spend money.

Quote:>>Secondly, Linux has gained FAR more respect in Dell's server support
>>dep't than has Windows.   Windows is the common subject of jokes and
>>ridicule around the dep't, as well as in the Network OS support dep't.

> I always talk desktop. I support Linux as a server OS.

Then why didn't your post mention desktops?

Quote:> Ask your sales dept how many Linux DESKTOP systems they are shipping
> each month.
> Ask them to look at their own website and report back to you that the
> Linux machines are a better deal.
> Look yourself.

Dell isn't targeting Linux pre-loads to home users.  In order to buy my
Dell PC with Linux pre-loaded, I had to go through Small Business Sales,
because Home PC Sales didn't offer it.  Linux as a desktop OS is more
suited for corporate desktops, it isn't ready for Home desktops yet.

Bracy

I think *YOU* should read the appelate decision, since they did no such
thing.  They overturned the penalty because they didn't think it applied any
more because the governments case had been smashed to pieces and only held
water on one charge.

Quote:> The smaller companies can't get prices as low because they don't do enough
> volume to get the discounts. What I have seen happen in a number of
> companies is computers are bought from dell with windows installed in the
> rack and formatted on first boot to have linux installed on them. They
> didn't care about Dell tech support etc.

"a number of companies" eh?  How many?  1?  That's a number.  How many
systems?  How many did they NOT do that to?  Chances are they have
standardized on a specific model that they buy from Dell in bulk, and simply
modify it to their needs afterward.  You can most definately buy a machine
from Dell with linux installed, so any company doing this would be stupid
unless there was some other reason.

Quote:> > Before you start telling us all about Compaq and Dell try calling them
> > and asking them about Linux pre-load sales and see what kind of answer
> > you get.
> > I got dead silence on the end of the phone.

> Hmm I trust we have called the same Dell. I got a good deal of iterest on
> the other end of the line about it. Dell has been doing a good job
shipping
> linux based servers on both rackmounts, and tower servers.

But wait, you just said that the companies that bought Dell computers had to
get them with Windows.  Which is it?

Quote:> > http://www.valinux.com/about/news/releases/062701.html

> > Soon it's going to be RedHat and IBM and maybe SuSE in Europe and that
> > will be it.

> > That will also be the end of the GPL.
> Hmm this is a logical error. Nothing valinux can do will affect the GPL in
> the slightest. You must elaborate a lot more on why you think this will
end
> the GPL.

You're taking him to literally.  Of course the GPL cannot be killed in the
literal sense, but its effectiveness can be severely limited if nobody wants
it.

I never buy preloaded computers.  I assemble them from parts. That way,
I can avoid the Gates tax.
--
MV running SuSE 7.1, Linux 2.4.0-4GB, KDE 2.0.1
 12:57am  up 11 days, 1 min,  1 user,  load average: 1.28, 1.23, 1.28
Spammers, feel free to eat these...

Flatfish, you have been predicting the demise of GPL for years now. You
sound like a Jehovah Witness from years ago. Remember, they predicted
the end of the world was almost here. Now, they have changed their tune.
--
MV running SuSE 7.1, Linux 2.4.0-4GB, KDE 2.0.1
 12:59am  up 11 days, 3 min,  1 user,  load average: 1.17, 1.21, 1.26
Spammers, feel free to eat these...

Any company that runs a lot of losedos servers has treated the whole
sorry mess as a joke. If they didn't make a joke out of it, they would
be leaving in droves. The clients that they serve are used to frequent
outages and make jokes about it too.
--
MV running SuSE 7.1, Linux 2.4.0-4GB, KDE 2.0.1
  1:03am  up 11 days, 7 min,  1 user,  load average: 1.28, 1.22, 1.25
Spammers, feel free to eat these...

Does not follow.  Linux does not depend on commercial distributions,
and the GPL does not depend on Linux.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

This is almost a universal.  I'm amazed at how often I hear non-geeks
making tart comments about Windows.  People aren't such sheep as we
usually credit them for.

Microsoft's days of selling overpriced trash are numbered.  Linux was
originally the plaything of hobbyists.  Then it was broadly accepted in
university CS departments.  Now I'm meeting people who use it in
Chemistry and Biology.  It's spreading.  Universities are turning out
thousands of students who will get a job and demand a stable and
predictable OS so they can do their work.

The university trend exactly parallels the independent trend in IT.
Techies used to sneak Linux in and run it under their desk so they could
provide reliable servers within their budget.  Now companies are
actively supporting it in the server role and people are sneaking it in
for desktop use.  It's spreading.

Of course, the two trends aren't *really* independent.  They're both
just a manifestation of the what-you-invest:what-you-get ratio.  When
the expensive option is also the object of ridicule because of its
perceived quality, the vendor of the expensive one isn't long for this
world.

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

Va Linux was once one of the only Linux System vendors, now that Dell and
IBM offer systems with Linux, their purpose is now obsolete.

What should they do? Port proprietary applications to Linux. For example,
goto Adobe, say to them that they (Va Linux) will port their application,
and in return, Adobe gets 70% of the profits made off the profits sold,
and Va Linux keeps the remain 30%. A profitable business model if you ask
me.

Also you failed to realise that Penguin Computing isn't going too bad at
the moment.

Matthew Gardiner

--
WARNING:

This email was written on an OS using the viral 'GPL' as its license.

Please check with Bill Gates before continuing to read this
email/posting.

That the * is a "Chevy Camaro" and "Ford Mustang GT"? Stick with cars people
know, like Nissan, Mitsubishi and Toyota.

Matthew Gardiner

--
WARNING:

This email was written on an OS using the viral 'GPL' as its license.

Please check with Bill Gates before continuing to read this email/posting.

Quote:> > The smaller companies can't get prices as low because they don't do enough
> > volume to get the discounts. What I have seen happen in a number of
> > companies is computers are bought from dell with windows installed in the
> > rack and formatted on first boot to have linux installed on them. They
> > didn't care about Dell tech support etc.

> "a number of companies" eh?  How many?  1?  That's a number.  How many
> systems?  How many did they NOT do that to?  Chances are they have
> standardized on a specific model that they buy from Dell in bulk, and simply
> modify it to their needs afterward.  You can most definately buy a machine
> from Dell with linux installed, so any company doing this would be stupid
> unless there was some other reason.

Just to jump in :) Penguin Computing AND VA Linux both could have ordered from
their supplier, and due to the fact that two companys are purchasing off a
supplier, thus more is ordered, a higher economies of scale can be reached.

Quote:> > > Before you start telling us all about Compaq and Dell try calling them
> > > and asking them about Linux pre-load sales and see what kind of answer
> > > you get.
> > > I got dead silence on the end of the phone.

> > Hmm I trust we have called the same Dell. I got a good deal of iterest on
> > the other end of the line about it. Dell has been doing a good job
> shipping
> > linux based servers on both rackmounts, and tower servers.

> But wait, you just said that the companies that bought Dell computers had to
> get them with Windows.  Which is it?

Nope, they had to include a Windows license, even if it is not installed. btw.
I am still wating for Dell to offer Linux workstations via their website in
 New Zealand.

Quote:

> > > http://www.valinux.com/about/news/releases/062701.html

> > > Soon it's going to be RedHat and IBM and maybe SuSE in Europe and that
> > > will be it.

> > > That will also be the end of the GPL.

> > Hmm this is a logical error. Nothing valinux can do will affect the GPL in
> > the slightest. You must elaborate a lot more on why you think this will
> > end the GPL.

> You're taking him to literally.  Of course the GPL cannot be killed in the
> literal sense, but its effectiveness can be severely limited if nobody wants
> it.

The big question is, who cares if no one wants to use it?

btw. FSF != Linux

Matthew Gardiner

--
WARNING:

This email was written on an OS using the viral 'GPL' as its license.

Please check with Bill Gates before continuing to read this email/posting.