there's always a bigger fool

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Nomen Nesci » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:00:03







> > >> I really have no idea what people see in all these Unix variations
> > >> of operating systems. They are good for servers, in the back room
> > >> for geek to use. The rest of the world uses windows becuase it juts
> > >> works!

> > >At work a collegue just got himself a new PC to replace the his old one after the last
> > >crash (from about 3.5 feet). Pentium IV running at 1.3GHz. He tried to install
> > >Star Office forgetting that Office 2000 and Visio were running in the background.
> > >A page fault on the install occured. He then closed the offending programs, one of them
> > >had to be flushed with the ctrl alt del command. After the programs all closed he
> > >proceeded on installing Star Office which succeeded.
> > >He then rebooted the PC and the message "no operating system present" appears.
> > >I boot on a windblows 98 diskette and the drive seems there. I run partition magic
> > >and the partition is still active. It seemed that Windblows 98 committed suicide.
> > >It's boot was shot. The recovery was to put a recovery CD in the drive and reinstall
> > >winblows. The PC was bought last week.

> > >And you say : "It just works" with a straight face.

> > >Ya been sniffing flour?

> > This is easily explained by the fact that the guy had the audacity to install
> > a non-Microsoft office package.  Everyone knows Microsoft software is
> > specifically designed to self destruct when confronted by a traitor user.

> I just wanted to see that again.

the real reason is right in there - the idiot ignored the message you get
with every installer telling you to shut down all other programs before
continuing with the install.
if you think that guy would have got any further with linux you're living
in a *ing fantasy world.
                        jackie 'anakin' tokeman

men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
more even than death
- bertrand russell

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Chad Evere » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:01:44







>> > >> I really have no idea what people see in all these Unix variations
>> > >> of operating systems. They are good for servers, in the back room
>> > >> for geek to use. The rest of the world uses windows becuase it juts
>> > >> works!

>> > >At work a collegue just got himself a new PC to replace the his old one after the last
>> > >crash (from about 3.5 feet). Pentium IV running at 1.3GHz. He tried to install
>> > >Star Office forgetting that Office 2000 and Visio were running in the background.
>> > >A page fault on the install occured. He then closed the offending programs, one of them
>> > >had to be flushed with the ctrl alt del command. After the programs all closed he
>> > >proceeded on installing Star Office which succeeded.
>> > >He then rebooted the PC and the message "no operating system present" appears.
>> > >I boot on a windblows 98 diskette and the drive seems there. I run partition magic
>> > >and the partition is still active. It seemed that Windblows 98 committed suicide.
>> > >It's boot was shot. The recovery was to put a recovery CD in the drive and reinstall
>> > >winblows. The PC was bought last week.

>> > >And you say : "It just works" with a straight face.

>> > >Ya been sniffing flour?

>> > This is easily explained by the fact that the guy had the audacity to install
>> > a non-Microsoft office package.  Everyone knows Microsoft software is
>> > specifically designed to self destruct when confronted by a traitor user.

>> I just wanted to see that again.

>the real reason is right in there - the idiot ignored the message you get
>with every installer telling you to shut down all other programs before
>continuing with the install.
>if you think that guy would have got any further with linux you're living
>in a *ing fantasy world.

I must be living in that fantasy world then...

I installed StarOffice on my Linux box while I was running Microsoft
Office 2000 and Photoshop, no problem.  In fact my Linux box was also
running netscape, several term windows, gimp, vmlinux ( running the
afore mentioned W2K with Office 2000 and Photoshop), playing an audio
CD, and a standalone Java program of my own design.

You seem to be unaware that this is one of the beautiful things about
Linux:  none of these braindead requirements to "shut down all other
programs before continuing" with an install of some office software.
I didn't even need to reboot...imagine that!  You should try it...you'd
really like it.

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Aaron R. Kulki » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:48:19







> > > >> I really have no idea what people see in all these Unix variations
> > > >> of operating systems. They are good for servers, in the back room
> > > >> for geek to use. The rest of the world uses windows becuase it juts
> > > >> works!

> > > >At work a collegue just got himself a new PC to replace the his old one after the last
> > > >crash (from about 3.5 feet). Pentium IV running at 1.3GHz. He tried to install
> > > >Star Office forgetting that Office 2000 and Visio were running in the background.
> > > >A page fault on the install occured. He then closed the offending programs, one of them
> > > >had to be flushed with the ctrl alt del command. After the programs all closed he
> > > >proceeded on installing Star Office which succeeded.
> > > >He then rebooted the PC and the message "no operating system present" appears.
> > > >I boot on a windblows 98 diskette and the drive seems there. I run partition magic
> > > >and the partition is still active. It seemed that Windblows 98 committed suicide.
> > > >It's boot was shot. The recovery was to put a recovery CD in the drive and reinstall
> > > >winblows. The PC was bought last week.

> > > >And you say : "It just works" with a straight face.

> > > >Ya been sniffing flour?

> > > This is easily explained by the fact that the guy had the audacity to install
> > > a non-Microsoft office package.  Everyone knows Microsoft software is
> > > specifically designed to self destruct when confronted by a traitor user.

> > I just wanted to see that again.

> the real reason is right in there - the idiot ignored the message you get
> with every installer telling you to shut down all other programs before
> continuing with the install.

What part of LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS do you not understand?

REAL operating systems don't make such ludicrous demands.

Quote:> if you think that guy would have got any further with linux you're living
> in a *ing fantasy world.

Jackie just proved that he doesn't know * about Unix/Linux.

Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

On REAL operating systems, you can have 500 programs (or thousands, even),
and install a new app....WITH NO FEAR of anything bad happening.

Hope that helps, jackie

Quote:>                         jackie 'anakin' tokeman

> men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
> more even than death
> - bertrand russell

--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642

L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we



K: Truth in advertising:
        Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
        Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
        Special Interest Sierra Club,
        Anarchist Members of the ACLU
        Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
        The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
        Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,

J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
   The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
   also known as old hags who've hit the wall....

I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
   challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
   between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
   Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole

H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
    premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
    you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
    you are lazy, stupid people"

G:  Knackos...you're a retard.

F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
   *ery while concurrently committing *ery with Tammy Hahn.

E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
   her behavior improves.

D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
   ...despite (C) above.

C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.

B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
   method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
   direction that she doesn't like.

A:  The wise man is mocked by fools.

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Aaron R. Kulki » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:59:29








> >> > >> I really have no idea what people see in all these Unix variations
> >> > >> of operating systems. They are good for servers, in the back room
> >> > >> for geek to use. The rest of the world uses windows becuase it juts
> >> > >> works!

> >> > >At work a collegue just got himself a new PC to replace the his old one after the last
> >> > >crash (from about 3.5 feet). Pentium IV running at 1.3GHz. He tried to install
> >> > >Star Office forgetting that Office 2000 and Visio were running in the background.
> >> > >A page fault on the install occured. He then closed the offending programs, one of them
> >> > >had to be flushed with the ctrl alt del command. After the programs all closed he
> >> > >proceeded on installing Star Office which succeeded.
> >> > >He then rebooted the PC and the message "no operating system present" appears.
> >> > >I boot on a windblows 98 diskette and the drive seems there. I run partition magic
> >> > >and the partition is still active. It seemed that Windblows 98 committed suicide.
> >> > >It's boot was shot. The recovery was to put a recovery CD in the drive and reinstall
> >> > >winblows. The PC was bought last week.

> >> > >And you say : "It just works" with a straight face.

> >> > >Ya been sniffing flour?

> >> > This is easily explained by the fact that the guy had the audacity to install
> >> > a non-Microsoft office package.  Everyone knows Microsoft software is
> >> > specifically designed to self destruct when confronted by a traitor user.

> >> I just wanted to see that again.

> >the real reason is right in there - the idiot ignored the message you get
> >with every installer telling you to shut down all other programs before
> >continuing with the install.
> >if you think that guy would have got any further with linux you're living
> >in a *ing fantasy world.

> I must be living in that fantasy world then...

> I installed StarOffice on my Linux box while I was running Microsoft
> Office 2000 and Photoshop, no problem.  In fact my Linux box was also
> running netscape, several term windows, gimp, vmlinux ( running the
> afore mentioned W2K with Office 2000 and Photoshop), playing an audio
> CD, and a standalone Java program of my own design.

> You seem to be unaware that this is one of the beautiful things about
> Linux:  none of these braindead requirements to "shut down all other
> programs before continuing" with an install of some office software.
> I didn't even need to reboot...imagine that!  You should try it...you'd
> really like it.

Staying up and running isn't "user friendly" in Jackie-land.

--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642

L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we



K: Truth in advertising:
        Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
        Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
        Special Interest Sierra Club,
        Anarchist Members of the ACLU
        Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
        The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
        Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,

J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
   The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
   also known as old hags who've hit the wall....

I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
   challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
   between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
   Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole

H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
    premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
    you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
    you are lazy, stupid people"

G:  Knackos...you're a retard.

F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
   *ery while concurrently committing *ery with Tammy Hahn.

E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
   her behavior improves.

D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
   ...despite (C) above.

C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.

B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
   method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
   direction that she doesn't like.

A:  The wise man is mocked by fools.

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Kelsey Bjarnaso » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 17:54:07


[snips]



Quote:> Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.  Generally
speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase of
operations
3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of a
background application or library) which needs to be launched in order to
work

One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be used.
I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how exactly
does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example, without
rebooting?

Quote:> On REAL operating systems, you can have 500 programs (or thousands, even),
> and install a new app....WITH NO FEAR of anything bad happening.

Funny; I tried that today.  Tried to install xemacs.  Not once, not twice,
but three times - and every time, guess what it did?  It froze the machine.
No, not just X - the whole damn machine.  No restarting X.  No logging into
another terminal as root and doing a graceful shutdown.  No nothing.  No
response at all from keyboard, mouse, network, or anything else.

Not once, but three times, installing an application required not just a
graceful reboot, but a hard reset.  Two of those times, it munged things so
bad it required a _power off_ to wake the drive back up.

Okay, it's not the _usual_ course of events.  Then again, asking for a
reboot during installation of a Windows app isn't, either; it's just common
enough to be annoying. :)

Quote:> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642

[snip of stupid sig-bomb]
 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Matthew Gardine » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 20:44:01



> [snips]



> > Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> > there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

> Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.  Generally
> speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

> 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
> 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase of
> operations
> 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of a
> background application or library) which needs to be launched in order to
> work

> One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be used.
> I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
> application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how exactly
> does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example, without
> rebooting?

Just in regards to:

1. Linux has most, if not all libraries installed required for most
software, however, when more libraries need to be installed, no reboot
is required.  Under O/S 2 Warp 4, you had to reboot after applying a
service pack (because it included low-level drivers, kernel updates
etc), however, in an application sense, it should not be required.
2. Can be started then and there. Just like if I want to add support for
a USB Zip drive, I simply drop into shell and type: insmod usb-storage,
and voila, instant access to my hardware.  I have installed Solaris
patches and the only time you need to reboot is when the kernel has been
updated, however, it is not forced, unlike Microsoft Windows.
3. Services, yet another thing that can be started on the fly. For
example, I could start up Apache without needing to reboot. I could
start Squid proxy with out a reboot.

What I am pointing out is that, if you take a kernel upgrade out of the
equation, a OS should never need to be rebooted, and hopefully once
hot-plug PCI becomes more mainstream, even needing to shut down the
computer to install hardware will become a thing of the past.

Matthew Gardiner

--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operater from Hell)

If you donot like it go [#rm -rf /home/luser] yourself

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Nigel Feltha » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:01:57


Quote:> 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
> 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase of
> operations
> 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of a
> background application or library) which needs to be launched in order to
> work

> One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be used.
> I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
> application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how
> exactly does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example,
> without rebooting?

Case #1: It is very rare for any application install under linux to need to
replace a system file - if it does need a newer system file it usually adds
another version (different versions have different filenames) then changes
standard symbolic link (with no version num in name) to point to new
version - any apps still running can continue to run with existing system
file until they need to restart and then they use new version.

Case #2: The only reason any app install needs to reboot the machine is
because it needs to load something before a specific system service starts
- why can't it just stop the service, load it's code then restart the
service or are MS programmers too stupid to think of this?

As for kernel patches, many parts which may need patching are installed as
loadable modules - just unload module and load patched version. Other
kernel patches do need a reboot but this is like patching code inside
windows KERNEL32.DLL - how many windows users can do this even if they
wanted to? Why quote something which linux users can do but windows users
can't as an example of a need to reboot the system or were you desparate to
find one of the few instances where Linux needs rebooting as there are so
few of them?

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Nomen Nesci » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:30:05








> > > > >> I really have no idea what people see in all these Unix variations
> > > > >> of operating systems. They are good for servers, in the back room
> > > > >> for geek to use. The rest of the world uses windows becuase it juts
> > > > >> works!

> > > > >At work a collegue just got himself a new PC to replace the his old one after the last
> > > > >crash (from about 3.5 feet). Pentium IV running at 1.3GHz. He tried to install
> > > > >Star Office forgetting that Office 2000 and Visio were running in the background.
> > > > >A page fault on the install occured. He then closed the offending programs, one of them
> > > > >had to be flushed with the ctrl alt del command. After the programs all closed he
> > > > >proceeded on installing Star Office which succeeded.
> > > > >He then rebooted the PC and the message "no operating system present" appears.
> > > > >I boot on a windblows 98 diskette and the drive seems there. I run partition magic
> > > > >and the partition is still active. It seemed that Windblows 98 committed suicide.
> > > > >It's boot was shot. The recovery was to put a recovery CD in the drive and reinstall
> > > > >winblows. The PC was bought last week.

> > > > >And you say : "It just works" with a straight face.

> > > > >Ya been sniffing flour?

> > > > This is easily explained by the fact that the guy had the audacity to install
> > > > a non-Microsoft office package.  Everyone knows Microsoft software is
> > > > specifically designed to self destruct when confronted by a traitor user.

> > > I just wanted to see that again.

> > the real reason is right in there - the idiot ignored the message you get
> > with every installer telling you to shut down all other programs before
> > continuing with the install.

> What part of LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS do you not understand?

when did i ever say it was?

Quote:> REAL operating systems don't make such ludicrous demands.

next you'll be telling me my newsreader is broken.

Quote:> > if you think that guy would have got any further with linux you're living
> > in a *ing fantasy world.

> Jackie just proved that he doesn't know * about Unix/Linux.

no, you just proved your reading comprehension approaches the chaney
threshold.

Quote:> Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

yes, and?

Quote:> On REAL operating systems, you can have 500 programs (or thousands, even),
> and install a new app....WITH NO FEAR of anything bad happening.

what does that have to do with my point?

Quote:> Hope that helps, jackie

i never claimed the guy would have the same problem installing a program
using linux, i said he would get no further if he had linux.
since you insist on being a retard i shall spell it out for you:
a person who cannot follow simple instructions like 'shut down all other
applications and click ok to continue' presented in large friendly letters
will have no better luck dealing with a hobbyist/sysadmin oriented os
whose documentation is more akin to war and peace than* and jane.
hth
                        jackie 'anakin' tokeman

men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
more even than death
- bertrand russell

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Ayende Rahie » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:50:01




> > [snips]



> > > Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> > > there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

> > Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.  Generally
> > speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

> > 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
> > 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase
of
> > operations
> > 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of
a
> > background application or library) which needs to be launched in order
to
> > work

> > One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be
used.
> > I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
> > application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how
exactly
> > does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example, without
> > rebooting?

> Just in regards to:

> 1. Linux has most, if not all libraries installed required for most
> software, however, when more libraries need to be installed, no reboot
> is required.  Under O/S 2 Warp 4, you had to reboot after applying a
> service pack (because it included low-level drivers, kernel updates
> etc), however, in an application sense, it should not be required.

What about needing to update those libraries?

Quote:> 2. Can be started then and there. Just like if I want to add support for
> a USB Zip drive, I simply drop into shell and type: insmod usb-storage,
> and voila, instant access to my hardware.  I have installed Solaris
> patches and the only time you need to reboot is when the kernel has been
> updated, however, it is not forced, unlike Microsoft Windows.

I don't think he meant this, there are several stuff that *need* reboot,
because they can't be done when the computer is running.
Converting the FS type of the system partition, or making changes to it,
frex.
I don't think that you can do that in linux without reboot either.

Quote:> 3. Services, yet another thing that can be started on the fly. For
> example, I could start up Apache without needing to reboot. I could
> start Squid proxy with out a reboot.

Dito for NT. There is nothing to prevent you from starting & shutting down
services whenever you like it.

Quote:

> What I am pointing out is that, if you take a kernel upgrade out of the
> equation, a OS should never need to be rebooted, and hopefully once
> hot-plug PCI becomes more mainstream, even needing to shut down the
> computer to install hardware will become a thing of the past.

I fully agree.
Something to point out, though. Ninety nine precent of the applications that
want reboot, don't need it. It's something that had been there because of
9x. And I certnaily close none of my applications to install new ones.
(Well, I log in as another user via TS, but that is another matter.)
 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Chris Ahlstro » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:36:10



> Case #2: The only reason any app install needs to reboot the machine is
> because it needs to load something before a specific system service starts
> - why can't it just stop the service, load it's code then restart the
> service or are MS programmers too stupid to think of this?

I imagine there are many extremely intelligent people at Microsoft,
probably many that are more intelligent than anyone writing to this
news list, for example.  However, it takes just one dumbass, with the
implicit consent of management, to promulgate some incredibly stupid
technical decisions.  (I worked on a project where the technical lead
was learning C++ by coding for the project.  It took years for him to
* himself out of the project.)

Chris

--
This application has crashed unexpectedly.
Hit OK to terminate, or Cancel to debug it.

Doh!

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Matthew Gardine » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:39:09


I updated my glibc from 2.1 to 2.2 and did not require a reboot.

Matthew Gardiner





> > > [snips]



> > > > Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> > > > there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

> > > Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.  Generally
> > > speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

> > > 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
> > > 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase
> of
> > > operations
> > > 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of
> a
> > > background application or library) which needs to be launched in order
> to
> > > work

> > > One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be
> used.
> > > I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
> > > application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how
> exactly
> > > does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example, without
> > > rebooting?

> > Just in regards to:

> > 1. Linux has most, if not all libraries installed required for most
> > software, however, when more libraries need to be installed, no reboot
> > is required.  Under O/S 2 Warp 4, you had to reboot after applying a
> > service pack (because it included low-level drivers, kernel updates
> > etc), however, in an application sense, it should not be required.

> What about needing to update those libraries?

> > 2. Can be started then and there. Just like if I want to add support for
> > a USB Zip drive, I simply drop into shell and type: insmod usb-storage,
> > and voila, instant access to my hardware.  I have installed Solaris
> > patches and the only time you need to reboot is when the kernel has been
> > updated, however, it is not forced, unlike Microsoft Windows.

> I don't think he meant this, there are several stuff that *need* reboot,
> because they can't be done when the computer is running.
> Converting the FS type of the system partition, or making changes to it,
> frex.
> I don't think that you can do that in linux without reboot either.

> > 3. Services, yet another thing that can be started on the fly. For
> > example, I could start up Apache without needing to reboot. I could
> > start Squid proxy with out a reboot.

> Dito for NT. There is nothing to prevent you from starting & shutting down
> services whenever you like it.

> > What I am pointing out is that, if you take a kernel upgrade out of the
> > equation, a OS should never need to be rebooted, and hopefully once
> > hot-plug PCI becomes more mainstream, even needing to shut down the
> > computer to install hardware will become a thing of the past.

> I fully agree.
> Something to point out, though. Ninety nine precent of the applications that
> want reboot, don't need it. It's something that had been there because of
> 9x. And I certnaily close none of my applications to install new ones.
> (Well, I log in as another user via TS, but that is another matter.)

--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operater from Hell)

If you donot like it go [#rm -rf /home/luser] yourself

Running SuSE Linux 7.1 Pro w/ Kernel 2.4.2

SuSE, the best of German engineering, now in software form :)

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Chris Ahlstro » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:09:31



> Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.

You're right... its often the reason for the Blue Screen of Doh!

Quote:>  Generally
> speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

> 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.

Then stop the services that are using the file first. If the services
are network services, "telinit 1" would do the trick.

Quote:> 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase of
> operations

Then stop all the old dependencies, and start the new ones again.

Quote:> 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of a
> background application or library) which needs to be launched in order to
> work

Then launch it first.

The thing about NT is that everything was so tangled that the easiest
way out is a reboot.  Win 2000 has improved greatly on this, but probably
not yet to the level of UNIX modularity.

Quote:> > On REAL operating systems, you can have 500 programs (or thousands, even),
> > and install a new app....WITH NO FEAR of anything bad happening.

> Funny; I tried that today.  Tried to install xemacs.  Not once, not twice,
> but three times - and every time, guess what it did?  It froze the machine.
> No, not just X - the whole damn machine.  No restarting X.  No logging into
> another terminal as root and doing a graceful shutdown.  No nothing.  No
> response at all from keyboard, mouse, network, or anything else.

Check the logs!  Check your memory.  There's some bad karma present <grin>.
By the way, recreating the same problem three times merely makes the
presentation more dramatic.

Chris

--
This application has crashed unexpectedly.
Hit OK to terminate, or Cancel to debug it.

Doh!

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Chris Ahlstro » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:12:13



> I must be living in that fantasy world then...

> I installed StarOffice on my Linux box while I was running Microsoft
> Office 2000 and Photoshop, no problem.  In fact my Linux box was also
> running netscape, several term windows, gimp, vmlinux ( running the
> afore mentioned W2K with Office 2000 and Photoshop), playing an audio
> CD, and a standalone Java program of my own design.

Do you use VMWare or some other product?  How do you like it?

Chris

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Bob Hau » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:43:38


On Sat, 14 Apr 2001 08:54:07 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason


> > On REAL operating systems, you can have 500 programs (or thousands, even),
> > and install a new app....WITH NO FEAR of anything bad happening.

> Funny; I tried that today.  Tried to install xemacs.  Not once, not twice,
> but three times - and every time, guess what it did?  It froze the machine.

You should report that to somebody then.  I've never heard of an XEmacs
install freezing a Unix machine.

--
 -| Bob Hauck
 -| To Whom You Are Speaking
 -| http://www.haucks.org/

 
 
 

there's always a bigger fool

Post by Charles Lyttl » Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:32:03






> > > [snips]



> > > > Since there is no junior-high-designed "registry" to get corrupted,
> > > > there is ZERO need to shut down other programs to install a new app.

> > > Umm... the registry is not the reason apps require reboots.  Generally
> > > speaking, there are three reasons an install wants to reboot:

> > > 1) It has attempted to update a locked file, such as a system file.
> > > 2) It has installed something expected to run during the startup phase
> of
> > > operations
> > > 3) It is installing a service (not in the NT sense, but in the sense of
> a
> > > background application or library) which needs to be launched in order
> to
> > > work

> > > One might suggest that in the case of #3, a better approach could be
> used.
> > > I agree.  In the cases of #2 and #1, I'm not sure how, given such an
> > > application being installed, Linux would handle this any better; how
> exactly
> > > does Linux handle live patching of the kernel, for example, without
> > > rebooting?

> > Just in regards to:

> > 1. Linux has most, if not all libraries installed required for most
> > software, however, when more libraries need to be installed, no reboot
> > is required.  Under O/S 2 Warp 4, you had to reboot after applying a
> > service pack (because it included low-level drivers, kernel updates
> > etc), however, in an application sense, it should not be required.

> What about needing to update those libraries?

Just install the new version. The old version is still there in case it
is required by another program. After careful consideration, if you find
that you have no apps requiring the old version, delete the old version.
These days, libraries are so backward compatible that it is seldom a
problem. In any case, rebooting is not required.

--
Russ Lyttle
"World Domination through Penguin Power"
The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>

 
 
 

1. Best 'Fools Guide'

Right, I've got the thing set up. No Xfree, I only have 8 Megs of Ram,
and it doesn't move. I'm still looking for help files on reading man
pages and finding out that the HOWTOs on my distribution are all years
out of date.
        The PC is sitting there thinking it's the centre of a multitasking
universe. It isn't, because I am coming a cropper on all sorts of stupid
little things. Lynx isn't configured. It says 'Lynx.cfg isn't where it

let alone decipher these cryptic scripts everyone seems to use to make
Linux dance to their tune.

        What;s the best fools guide to Linux?

        Regards,

        Declan Moriarty.

2. Shell error exit question

3. Fooling the 'w' command?

4. Syslog facilities for xinetd & ipfw

5. my printd cache gets bigger and bigger all time

6. PPP problem

7. Automount process gets bigger and bigger under AIX 2.3

8. Baffled by ksh signal handling

9. 'finger' always says 'Never logger in'

10. Procs getting bigger and bigger

11. IP's always 0's or 255's in log file

12. Can't put it past the FOOL, they see Linux for what it is: Hype

13. Eureka! What a fool I've been!