Very Computer

Hey guys,

It's a slow day here on COLA so I thought I'd finally start this list.

By the way, if anybody feels that they would be more qualified in
maintaining this list, just say so and it's all yours. I am still new
here, so I'd understand if people would prefer a more experience
*nality on this job.

That said, even a 2-year-old with an IQ rating of granite should be
able to see that there are some people who should be ignored on this
site (so even I should have no problem). Converse with them at your
peril. Any effort you put into their arguments is effort wasted.

DEFINITELY IGNORE:
"S" -- reads M$ press releases and then graces us with their garbage,
offers little gems like "Linus anally*s the US constitution".

"Sponge (& Amy)" -- Is in love with the word "*". "Amy" may or may
not be his right hand.

"piddy" -- He "piddies" us... ahaha.

ON THE BUBBLE:
"teknite77" -- Sometimes sounds like Sponge and sometimes actually
makes an argument. Would the real teknite77 step forward, please?

CONTENDERS:
"Chad Myers" & "Drestin Black" -- General hecklers who differ from
linux advocates on certain basic philosophies. Don't listen to their
arguments without understanding where they are coming from. Some
material often gets crossposted from nt.advocacy -- do not pay
attention to it. It is mindless.

"Chad Mulligan" -- doesn't start many of his own threads, but is
usually among the first in line to heckle a reasonable pro-linux
argument because, hey, some moron has to do it.

"Hobbyist" -- Think Chad Myers, but less insightful. Yes, it is
possible.

The above list is by no means exhaustive. It is just meant as an
introduction to any poor soul who happens upon this newsgroup wanting
to learn a thing or two about linux and why people like it.

Members of this illustrious club are nominated (or removed) by Linux
advocates only -- your track record counts here.

-andrew

Sent via Deja.com http://www.veryComputer.com/
Before you buy.

Ah, a new conception of the sock puppet.

BTW, the real question about your list is, how many of those poster names
are actually the same person?

Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas

It shows. Look, if you ignore all the NT advocates, that's fine by me. But
personally, I don't want this group to turn into a linux circle jerk where
we all take it in turns of talking about how wonderful linux is. Debate is
fun. SOme of the people you named often offer intelligent discussion,
more so than some of the linux advocates.

--
Donovan

On 4 Nov 1999 01:23:11 -0500,

had somehow managed to commit the following:

Quote:

>It shows. Look, if you ignore all the NT advocates, that's fine by me. But
>personally, I don't want this group to turn into a linux circle jerk where
>we all take it in turns of talking about how wonderful linux is. Debate is
>fun. SOme of the people you named often offer intelligent discussion,
>more so than some of the linux advocates.

A second to that one. Even Sponge can surprise sometimes, albeit *very*
rarely.

The problem with this list is that one tends generalize this problem all
too much - I mean Dressed-in was a serious candidate for joining S at
times, yet at certain times he has his points, and good ones too...

I sometimes wish usenet groups had topics like IRC channels do, then I'd
suggest we had it read

  "If you want to read this newsgroup, put S in your killfile first."

I should say this would suffice for the major part of it, although I
noticed S actually has some friends of about the same intellectual
merit, and he actually seems to have invited them to join him/her/it
not so long ago... hope they don't become regulars like S...

Cheers,

--
--------------------------------------
        Grega Bremec                  http://zap.to/gbsoftware

        -------------------------------------------------------------

I think you don't see this 'people to ignore'-list in the right way.
This is a *Linux advocacy* group. The people he listed are not Linux
advocates. One might argue that if you came here to see some advocacy,
these people can be ignored - all the way from Mullys anecdotes to
"S"'s lunatic babbling.
And please notice that most of the people in the list are anonymous.
Not that there is anything wrong with being anonymous in general, but
people not being Linux advocates _and_ being anonymous* around
in COLA... I don't know... I think it's suspicious that people can't
support their misplaced opinions with their real name.

Having said this, let me state that the only person I ignore is "S". And
I don't intend to use the list - but it might help people new to COLA,
in seing some statements in the right perspective.

Quote:> The problem with this list is that one tends generalize this problem
all
> too much - I mean Dressed-in was a serious candidate for joining S at
> times, yet at certain times he has his points, and good ones too...

True. But how many good points does it take to make you forget 1 troll
posting? I dunno... Such an ignore-list might be a good tool in showing,
that if people want to share their opinions with us, they must behave.

Well, if "S" loses his audience in this group (there are still people
communicating with him) as a result of this list, then it is a good
idea.

--
"When you're looking for a *LUG, you might overlook a *GNUX!"
 - Martin A. Boegelund, 1999

Sent via Deja.com http://www.veryComputer.com/
Before you buy.

[snipped]

I am a freedom of speech advocate more than I am a Linux advocate. I
also have lived long enough to know that even the biggest idiot will
sometimes posses insight that eludes the wisest man.

Your list indicates a few individuals that, while I do not agree with
them 99.999% of the time, do have opinions that are important to hear to
refute, argue, or even think about.

The person in your list, "S," whatever it may be, is the most
contentless poster I have ever seen, even he spawned an interesting and
positive thread, though not intentionally.

Hey it's a free news group. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Addendum: If you don't like it, don't oppose its expression, for someday
it may be you or your ideas that people don't like.

<RANT>
Lastly, who are you to discount anything that someone says to anyone
else? I mean, seriously, if you have been able to create this list from
your own viewing, would not anyone else? What is the value of "you"
telling "others" that "they" are bad. Your motivation is clearly
questionable, no one can argue that "they" can't be infuriating, but
black lists are a form of censorship. Censorship of any form, except
self discipline, is wrong.
</RANT>

--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com

On Wed, 03 Nov 1999 22:48:20 GMT,

Hey why not ? And you've def got the job :)

You'll get your share of opponents, I see D.R. has had his say, now I'll have
mine.

When MAWA first introduced his "Frequently rehashed topics" he got a lot of
resistance too, but the net is dynamic, and so is COLA, now no one kicks up
about it.

I was going to do the opposite, and post a "best troll" list with a trophy
and 3 gold dubloons. Tek *was* on the list, but after his dropkick
impersonation in company with his mate "S", he's out of the running.

One doesn't need any, "history" here, this is COLA, do your worst, trigger
finger kilfiles abound, in "COLA CITY".

For what its worth, I think you've summed up our current crop of trolls very
well.

Now if you excuse me, I've got to water them, and see they're growing nicely :)

Kind Regards
Terry
--

   My Desktop is powered by GNU-LINUX, and has been  
 up 5 hours 53 minutes
** Registration Number: 103931,  http://www.veryComputer.com/ **

Oh well. There's always next year :)

tek

Quote:>I was going to do the opposite, and post a "best troll" list with a trophy
>and 3 gold dubloons. Tek *was* on the list, but after his dropkick
>impersonation in company with his mate "S", he's out of the running.

I'll speak to this only superbriefly, because your freedom-of-speech
point is a good one. Think of this less as trying to draw up a charter
for COLA and more like antitrolling countermeasures.

Quote:> Your list indicates a few individuals that, while I do not agree with
> them 99.999% of the time, do have opinions that are important to hear
to
> refute, argue, or even think about.

It's only a newbies guide. Chances are, no matter what, if a response
is a good one (even by some of the people higher up on the list), then
it will generate productive debate, and the length of that thread, more
so than anything, will draw people in. This is to discourage response
to the kind of garbage S puts in on a regular basis, as well as
the "Latest news that proves Lx sucks" garbage that I've seen Chad put
or crosspost into here. If one of their posts strikes a chord, it's
going to generate response no matter what. All I wanted to do was shed
some light on the people who might be involved in the "anti" side of
the debate. That's why there are categories. The humour was just for
fun.

Quote:> Hey it's a free news group. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I love freedom of speech too. I also love freedom to discriminate
against idiots. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and what I was
trying to do involved the latter, not the former.

Quote:> Addendum: If you don't like it, don't oppose its expression, for
someday
> it may be you or your ideas that people don't like.

Ha, too late, that's already happened. I've seen this has already been
cross-posted to windows.nt too.

Quote:> <RANT>
> Lastly, who are you to discount anything that someone says to anyone
> else? I mean, seriously, if you have been able to create this list
from
> your own viewing, would not anyone else? What is the value of "you"
> telling "others" that "they" are bad. Your motivation is clearly
> questionable, no one can argue that "they" can't be infuriating, but
> black lists are a form of censorship. Censorship of any form, except
> self discipline, is wrong.
> </RANT>

I'm hoping this black-list fosters a certain degree of self-discipline.
If I'm wrong, then nothing changes. If I'm right, then there's a chance
that the debate could develop more focus, and that those far off truths
that everyone seems to be striving towards with each developing
argument will get a little bit closer. There's a difference between
McCarthyism and what I'm doing here. McCarthyism was a black-list taken
so far that it ruined lives. How far can you take a newsgroup
blacklist? Most of the names listed were pseudonyms anyway. Nobody's
preventing "S" from coming back as "J". The real world should have all
sorts of freedoms. Productive debate should not. In my opinion, the
onus should be on the arguer to proove that they belong. If you ever
try to act as a mediator or a chair in a debate, you'll learn this the
hard way. But I'm not trying to proclaim myself chair. I'd much prefer
something approaching concensus, even if you could never get it
completely.

As for who I am, I'm just a guy who hates debate on stupid things.
There's no learning going on with most of these trolls, but there IS a
definite sense of hysteria to them that a happenstance reader might
pick up that could turn them off Linux for good. This list isn't meant
for the Anthony Ords in this newsgroup -- it's meant for people like
who I was several months ago. Is it presumptuous to presume that my
opinions should be taken as gospel? Of course it is, and I'll try to be
clearer next time that this isn't my intent. But it is even more
presumptuous to presume that people in this newsgroup should have to
put up with TCO arguments only after Microsoft has made TCO a *
buzzword, that we should care if MSNBC thinking that Microsoft isn't a
monopoly, etc.

Just so you know, I briefly start a thread a while ago to figure out if
this idea was a good one, and it didn't get many responses (the ones
that I did were generally favourable to it). Chances are the reason it
didn't get many responses was because the majority of people thought it
was a silly idea to begin with. Still, I'd have no way of finding out
without actually doing it.

I guess I could have been more clear that these are just my opinions,
as is anything that gets posted here. I'll make sure that's very
evident in version 1.2.

-andrew

Sent via Deja.com http://www.veryComputer.com/
Before you buy.

I don't know, I've never heard anything reasonable from them.
the last NTvocate on here that was making ANY sense was Don
Hopkins.

--
Tim Kelley

"If evolution is outlawed only outlaws will evolve"

Teknite77 SOMETIMES argues intelligently (when he feels like it.)
However, because he's a Windows advocate, his arguments are usually
flawed. lol!

Rich C.
--
Have you supported a new Linux user today?

To reply by email, remove the "abc_" from my address

Perhaps you should name your list

"The Truth About this Newsgroup and Certain of its Posters"

and treat it more of an informational guide than a list of people to
censor. Personally, I don't even HAVE a killfile. To totally ignore
someone is to close your mind to ANYTHING they will or MIGHT say. To me
that is censorship. I simply don't respond to most of S' posts (as an
example--although I've been known to bait him a few times! ;o))

Rich C.
--
Have you supported a new Linux user today?

To reply by email, remove the "abc_" from my address

The interesting guys fron COMNA are Drestin, Chad & Chad, Sheldon and Edwards-
Just these five guys

Their "beloved leader" is Drestin Black.. he's a strange person. He has some
posts with lots of sense.. but ten minuttes later he posts stuff nearly as
stupid as 'S* (only nearly)

I think it is about time someone wrote a FAQ about Drestin and the other 4
guys. New people here and especially at COMNA need to know how to tacle them. I
managed to get on Drestins killfile so i have some ideas.

Greetings

Three lashes with a wet noodle for you :)

tek

On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 15:59:35 -0500, Rich Cloutier

On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:19:48 GMT,

had somehow managed to commit the following:

Quote:

>I think you don't see this 'people to ignore'-list in the right way.
>This is a *Linux advocacy* group. The people he listed are not Linux
>advocates. One might argue that if you came here to see some advocacy,
>these people can be ignored - all the way from Mullys anecdotes to
>"S"'s lunatic babbling.

Yep, albeit it's getting into a debate we should be about, not avoiding
confrontation. I tend to believe that issues NT advocates sometimes
expose are reall, honest issues that come to mind of an experienced
NT user (whatever that might mean in the strange Microsoft world),
no matter how ridiculous they might seem to all of us, and I like to
handle them as such. OK, Dressed-in really has some peculiar outbursts
sometimes, but in general, his problems are quite valid, same goes for
others. And if there's a shred of reason in someone's troll, I quite
enjoy to address it, if I feel like I'm capable of reasoning with
them.

Quote:>And please notice that most of the people in the list are anonymous.
>Not that there is anything wrong with being anonymous in general, but
>people not being Linux advocates _and_ being anonymous* around
>in COLA... I don't know... I think it's suspicious that people can't
>support their misplaced opinions with their real name.

A-ha, generally agreed. yet it's your judgement that will tell where
a post is to be ranked on the from-a-troll-to-a-real-problem scale for
you.

Quote:>Having said this, let me state that the only person I ignore is "S".
>And I don't intend to use the list - but it might help people new to
>COLA, in seing some statements in the right perspective.

>Well, if "S" loses his audience in this group (there are still people
>communicating with him) as a result of this list, then it is a good
>idea.

Absolutely. I've nothing to say against that. It remains something
we'll have to wait & see, though. And I must add that seeing the

    FIRST!! HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
    SECOND!!!  - | | -
    THIRD!!!!  - | | -

thread makes me worry a bit about the future of this newsgroup. In
respect to this, I think that there's really basically nothing else
to do than trust in everybody's mutual respect and the "subliminal
netiquette integration" to occur as a part of the lemming effect if
everybody starts acting properly.

Cheers,

--
--------------------------------------
        Grega Bremec                  http://www.veryComputer.com/

        -------------------------------------------------------------