Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Ross Vandegrif » Sat, 21 Nov 1998 04:00:00



Quote:> Still infringes MPEG-2. According to www.mpegla.com use of those
> patents is _essential_ (their words, and their emphasis) to implement
> the spec. Use the patented technology? You infringe. Don't use it? You
> are in non-compliance with the spec, and unable to read ANY DVD Video,
> encrypted or not. Same with encoding. Let's say I make an open DVD
> Video disk with my own content since I neither want to or am able to
> make an encrypted disk. Well I still got to use the patented MPEG2 or
> else no standard DVD Video system will be able to understand it. So
> much for any Linux authoring of DVD-Video.

Interesting, but why don't we come up with a mutually incompatible
MPEG-2 alternative. and make it free.  When presented with an *
retentive distributor and a liberal environment, I'd bet people would
tend to go with the one they find easier to deal with.  MPEG-2 could be
phased out beofre it is even popular.

--
Ross Vandegrift | Eric J. Fenderson

"Man, I've been working in a retirement home WAY too long."
        --Todd Presson

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Rob van der Putte » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00


Hi there

Does the DVD standard allow for non copyrighted discs. What if yoy put
your own copylefted stuf on DVD?

You should at least be able to write a driver which plays non copy
protected discs.

Regards,
Rob

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Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Raffael Cavalla » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00




>Microsoft Windows 98 is
>allowed to read DVD Video, it appears... Microsoft is the only PC DVD
>solution

Only if you mean Intel x86 by "PC." You can run DVD movies on a Mac as
well, with the right decoding hardware/software.

I think the central issue here has little or nothing to do with operating
systems, and everything to do with the DVD consortium's desire to prevent
piracy of DVD videos. The way things are set up, DVD videos can only be
read by the right decoding hardware/software, designed for the appropriate
region.

Note that DVD RAMs (writeable DVDs) do *not* have this restriction. You
can put any sort of data on them you want. These can them be read by DVD
ROM drives like any other removable media, as long as the content is in a
format readable by the computer the DVD ROM is connected to.

It seems to me that one open source alternative would be to implement an
MPEG2 decoder that reads MPEG2 encoded video from ordinary DVD ROM disks
(i.e., not the encrypted DVD Video disks). Of course, the problem becomes,
"What are you going to use as content?" Since any content creator with
half a brain is going to *want* her/his
film/movie/video/play/concert/music etc. in a secure, difficult to pirate
format, who is actually going to provide content to be placed on an open
source MPEG2 DVD disk?

Alternatively, if the decoding were done in hardware (say a PCI card made
by a manufacturer who had licenced the technology) then that decoder card
could be used under Linux, as long as the manufacturer provided Linux
developers enough info to write a driver for the card. This would prevent
the release of sensiteive decoding source, and would allow DVD video to be
viewed under Linux.

You see, the reason Linux is currently locked out of DVD video is that
Linux is fundamentally opposed to keeping intellectual property in the
sole control of those who wish to make money from it. DVD video is *all
about* keeping intellectual property (films, music, etc.) in the sole
control of those who wish to make money from it (the copyright holders).
As a result, even if Linux developers create a Linux-based DVD video
solution, no one would be foolish enough to provide content for it. The
only way Linux is getting in on this particular medium is to play by the
rules of the commercial world, not by open source.

Raf

--
Raffael Cavallaro

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Rick Russe » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00




> Note that DVD RAMs (writeable DVDs) do *not* have this restriction. You
> can put any sort of data on them you want. These can them be read by DVD
> ROM drives like any other removable media, as long as the content is in a
> format readable by the computer the DVD ROM is connected to.

Actually, current DVD-RAM implementation resembles MO cartridges more
than CD-R. DVD-RAM cartridges are currently only readable by other
DVD-RAM drives.

But presumably data-only writable DVD is in the future as well.

Rick R.
--

             * http://peripherals.miningco.com

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Julian Morriso » Sun, 22 Nov 1998 04:00:00



> Sorry for the following rant, but Linux might be *forever locked out*
> of DVD-Video applications.

Our best protection against this is to secure Linux's market position to a
point where "won't work with Linux or free software" equates to "won't
sell".

--
Julian Morrison

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Frank T. Lofar » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00





>>Microsoft Windows 98 is
>>allowed to read DVD Video, it appears... Microsoft is the only PC DVD
>>solution
>Only if you mean Intel x86 by "PC." You can run DVD movies on a Mac as
>well, with the right decoding hardware/software.

I did mean that (except it need not be _Intel_ x86
specifically). Usually Macs are called Macs, not PCs. To call a Mac a
PC invites an attack by hordes of Mac users, who as a group, hate
Wintel as much or even more than Linux users.

Quote:>Note that DVD RAMs (writable DVDs) do *not* have this restriction. You
>can put any sort of data on them you want. These can them be read by DVD
>ROM drives like any other removable media, as long as the content is in a
>format readable by the computer the DVD ROM is connected to.

True enough, but...

Quote:>It seems to me that one open source alternative would be to implement an
>MPEG2 decoder that reads MPEG2 encoded video from ordinary DVD ROM disks

Implement an open-source MPEG2 alternative? Patent infringement of
MPEG.

See the www.mpegla.com site.

Quote:>(i.e., not the encrypted DVD Video disks). Of course, the problem becomes,

Still infringes MPEG-2. According to www.mpegla.com use of those
patents is _essential_ (their words, and their emphasis) to implement
the spec. Use the patented technology? You infringe. Don't use it? You
are in non-compliance with the spec, and unable to read ANY DVD Video,
encrypted or not. Same with encoding. Let's say I make an open DVD
Video disk with my own content since I neither want to or am able to
make an encrypted disk. Well I still got to use the patented MPEG2 or
else no standard DVD Video system will be able to understand it. So
much for any Linux authoring of DVD-Video.

Quote:>"What are you going to use as content?" Since any content creator with
>half a brain is going to *want* her/his
>film/movie/video/play/concert/music etc. in a secure, difficult to pirate
>format, who is actually going to provide content to be placed on an open
>source MPEG2 DVD disk?

Who knows? What percentage of DVD Video disks are encrypted?

Quote:>Alternatively, if the decoding were done in hardware (say a PCI card made
>by a manufacturer who had licensed the technology) then that decoder card
>could be used under Linux, as long as the manufacturer provided Linux
>developers enough info to write a driver for the card. This would prevent
>the release of sensitive decoding source, and would allow DVD video to be
>viewed under Linux.
>You see, the reason Linux is currently locked out of DVD video is that
>Linux is fundamentally opposed to keeping intellectual property in the
>sole control of those who wish to make money from it. DVD video is *all
>about* keeping intellectual property (films, music, etc.) in the sole
>control of those who wish to make money from it (the copyright holders).

Right, and let me mention as an aside it is not about helping the
actual creators, but those that exploit both the creators and the
public. Look at the MP3 mess where some authors want to use the format
but are denied by their studios.

Quote:>As a result, even if Linux developers create a Linux-based DVD video
>solution, no one would be foolish enough to provide content for it. The
>only way Linux is getting in on this particular medium is to play by the
>rules of the commercial world, not by open source.

Maybe DVD needs to be killed. Who remembers DAT? Who uses it now?
Not very many.

Quote:>Raf
>--
>Raffael Cavallaro

P.S. my spell checker offered "dud" as an alternative to DVD. Hmm,
strangely appropriate.
 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by David M. Co » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00




Quote:>You see, the reason Linux is currently locked out of DVD video is that
>Linux is fundamentally opposed to keeping intellectual property in the
>sole control of those who wish to make money from it.

Nonsense.  "Linux" (or do you mean Linus) has no problem with people keeping
control of their IP.  Witness Oracle, Informix, Sybase, Applix, etc.

Dave Cook

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Frank T. Lofar » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00



Quote:>You see, the reason Linux is currently locked out of DVD video is that
>Linux is fundamentally opposed to keeping intellectual property in the
>sole control of those who wish to make money from it. DVD video is *all
>about* keeping intellectual property (films, music, etc.) in the sole
>control of those who wish to make money from it (the copyright holders).

Well Linux and DVD are both political entities (political software
and a political medium)

Linux has the fundamental opposition with many things besise DVD. This
might result in a push by the powers that be to crush Linux. Read the
Halloween docs (Microsoft internal memos). Besides advocating using
proprietary protocols (likely to be protected by NDAs and lawsuits of
even individual people whe clean-romm reverse-engineer), it mentions
the _ominous_ use of copyrights and _patents_ to combat (make illegal)
open-source software.

Linux has gotten big. Maybe too big before we were prepared. They (I
do _not_ specifically mean just Microsoft, but this is all we _see for
now_) see us and are targetting us for destruction. Read the memo on
www.open-source.org. Realize that Microsoft isn't alone. The Business
Software Alliance (www.bsa.org) does have other members. And there are
still more entities that want us gone.

A _lot_ of people want Linux dead. A _lot_ of people would be happy to
see developers and users disgraced, sued into bankruptcy, imprisoned
for years and with civil rights revoked by being guilty to felonies
(someday that may include not being banned from voting, etc, but also
from what passes for the Internet then *).

I am not saying this will happen tomorrow. I am just saying it is in
many peoples vision of the future they want.

I have read much of titles 17, 18, and 35 of the US
Code. (www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/). I have read many docs by the
civil liberties and advocacy organizations I mentioned the post you
replied to. I have read articles in communications of the ACM and of
the Federal Government of the United States. I have read white papers
on the Nation/Global Information Infrastructure and/or white papers
by the IITF. I have read ITAR, docs about PGP, the gov't an the
possible weakening of DES, how Europe doesn't trust DES and uses IDEA
instead.

I wish I could stop following politics and just use my computer and
write software and live my life!

(*) Yes I am not making this up either. One proposal for the NII would
ban unauthenticated accessto networks. Networks which allowed it would
be facilitating any crimes on it. So their admins would go to jail for
years for felonies that any user committed on them - the admins would
be convicted too. Now if only authenticated users can get on, and to
authenticate in a gov't acceptable manner oyu need to use encryption,
and encryption is a munition, and felons can't posses firearms - you
see the connection.

Yes it is a big stretch.

Isn't it a stretch to take someone's property (civil forfeiture), and
charge the _item_ with the crime, and convict it (items lack civil
rights to begin with), so that the gov't  can seize without due
process.

There are quite a few cases of US vs (some ship), US vs (some item),
etc where the US won.

We didn't take your stuff to punish you, we just convicted your stuff.

Ask people in misc.legal about civil forfeiture.

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Gavin McCor » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00




> > Sorry for the following rant, but Linux might be *forever locked out*
> > of DVD-Video applications.

> Our best protection against this is to secure Linux's market position to a
> point where "won't work with Linux or free software" equates to "won't
> sell".

> --
> Julian Morrison

 About a month ago, I heard of another replacement for CD/Laserdisc, being
developed in China and supported by major hardware vendors, so I wouldn't get
too hung up on DVD yet.

--
gav

 
 
 

Intellectual Property DANGER! (Re: DVD driver)

Post by Mark » Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:00:00



>Well Linux and DVD are both political entities (political software
>and a political medium)
>Linux has gotten big. Maybe too big before we were prepared. They (I
>do _not_ specifically mean just Microsoft, but this is all we _see for
>now_) see us and are targetting us for destruction........snipped

True, but I still contend the threats from the inside are just as great. The
money mongers that are RedTel and other assorted 'jump on the wagon before
it gets away' money sucking right wing Avery business graduates see a no
risk disposable cash cow to suckle and milk.
RedTel CD's are becoming the "AOL" drink coasters of 98' as Win users clamor
to see with their own eyes the current hype that is Linux. Most of that very
hype has been fanned like a flame by these same * suckers who try and
smother you with rhetoric about MS and the FSF, while fleecing you for $49
with promises of support that they never deliver. Many Microsofties are
drawn by ubiquitous screen shots of X running memory leaking & gobbling
desktops such as E and WM with half a dozen apps swallowed in the dock. The
churn of new users must be great once the candy becomes stale. Chest
thumping testosterone laden morons bolstered by how superior they feel to be
using something different than the 'windows lusers', who by the way they
just left,... shout to proclaim Linux the best thing since sliced bread as
more mature users look on in disgust, contemplating a platform shift as they
begin to feel guilty by association. If MS is smart, and I don't doubt that
they are, they will play on this angle of the Linux world. Divide and
conquer. Linux is ripe to be fragmented to the point of near 0 credibility
and thereby made irrelevant.
 It reminds me of the " there goes the neighborhood" white-flight in the
early 80's.  All of this foolishly driven by a 'world domination' attitude
which at it's very heart is contradictory to the roots of Linux by one Mr.
Torvalds himself. Those original words that made Linux a religion with it's
users now being drowned out by the 'we must take over the desktop'
proclaimers ala Torvalds and others. Somewhere along the line they became to
represent exactly the opposite of what made their creation attractive in the
first place and are now so caught up in the current ego ride they are
completely blind to this faction of users.
 It's becoming a dark ride kids. Keep your eyes and ears open.
 
 
 

1. Does innovation require intellectual property rights

http://www.reason.com/0303/fe.dc.creation.shtml

March 2003

Creation Myths
Does innovation require intellectual property rights?

By Douglas Clement

".. As for software, Boldrin refers to an MIT working paper by
economists Eric Maskin and James Bessen. Maskin and Bessen write that
"some of the most innovative industries today -- software, computers
and semiconductors -- have historically had weak patent protection and
have experienced rapid imitation of their products .."

".. Moreover, U.S. court decisions in the 1980s that strengthened
patent protection for software led to less innovation. "Far from
unleashing a flurry of new innovative activity," Maskin and Bessen
write, "these stronger property rights ushered in a period of
stagnant, if not declining, R&D among those industries and firms that
patented most." Industries that depend on sequential product
development -- the initial version is followed by an improved second
version, etc. -- are, they argue, likely to be stifled by stronger
intellectual property regimes .."

2. -C files

3. Intellectual Property Rights

4. lsearch(), lfind() where?

5. Proposal: Liberated Intellectual Property Organization (LIPO)

6. MIDI sequencer for LINUX?

7. intellectual property and the GPL

8. Proper behavior of dhcp on linux

9. Intellectual property rights

10. contamination with UNIX intellectual property and job changes

11. BILL GATES / MICROSOFT CAUGHT STEALING INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY !

12. Seminar: GPL versus Intellectual Property

13. Does "intellectual Property" exist?