Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Jason L. Asba » Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:00:00



Hi, Fellow Linuxers!

QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

"How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html

jla
CRASH.ORG

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Nathan Han » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00



Quote:> Hi, Fellow Linuxers!

> QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

> "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
> an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
> TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

> My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

> Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html

I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
1 disk wonder :-)

Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.

--
The sticker on the side of the box said "Supported Platforms: Windows 95,
Windows NT 4.0, or better", so clearly Linux was a supported platform.

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Kenton E. Sinn » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00




> > Hi, Fellow Linuxers!

> > QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

> > "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
> > an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
> > TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

> > My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

> > Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html
> I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
> defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
> windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
> suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
> fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
> and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
> 1 disk wonder :-)
> Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
> out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.
> --
> The sticker on the side of the box said "Supported Platforms: Windows 95,
> Windows NT 4.0, or better", so clearly Linux was a supported platform.

There is a QNX-like system called VSTA.  I don't have references on
hand, but it is GPL'd.

--
Single, white, Milwaukee-area male seeks romance with non-smoking female.
Are you caring, bright, humorous, sensuous, between 18 and 35 years old?
I am a computer programmer in my mid thirties.  Turn-ons: good food,
pre-sputnik SF, roller coasters, fast computers.  Turn-offs: taxes,
internet regulation.  Send email if interested.

Hi, my name's Ken (Hi, Ken!), and I'm a programmer ...
I can change ... if I have to ... I guess ...

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Andrew Cos » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00




>> Hi, Fellow Linuxers!
>> QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:
>> "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
>> an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
>> TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

I've checked it out, and I'm well impressed.

Quote:>> My question is -- can this be done with Linux?
>> Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.veryComputer.com/
>I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
>defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
>windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
>suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
>fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
>and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
>1 disk wonder :-)
>Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
>out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.

Hmmm.  I don't think ELKS will have graphical support like QNX
though :)  Let's see - I bet I _could_ do a one-floppy with Linux
1.0.9 and the minix filesystem.  Text, though.  Let's see.

pppd, lynx-2.2, telnet (gotta have telnet!).  For the server,
an extremely cut-down apache.  Umm.  It doesn't really look all
that *ce you've slashed away at things.

Look up "Linux-Lite" for a bare-essentials setup.  It'll run,
one floppy (1200k), in 896k.  It doesn't have networking though
which is what we're after.

You _could_ do a compressed filesystem floppy with 2.0.X, but
it's need gobs of memory for the ramdisk.  No good if you're on
a 4 meg system.

Lots to mull, at any rate.

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Dan Hildebra » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00





>> QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

>> "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
>> an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
>> TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

>> My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

>> Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html

>I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
>defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
>windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
>suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
>fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
>and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
>1 disk wonder :-)

Hey, you can't compare lynx to a graphical, HTML 3.2 web browser.  :-)
Since the QNX demodisk is intended to introduce people to what QNX is all
about, it contains a good amount of HTML to explain QNX.  If I dropped the
HTML and a few of the demo apps (the text editor, file browser, television
remote control, 3D vector animation, etc), I think I could easily add
filesystem support for dos, iso9660, smb, nfs, etc.  And still keep the GUI
and fit on 1 disk.  :-)

Quote:>Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
>out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.

How much of Linux do you lose when you run ELKS?
--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8
 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by James Youngma » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00


  Kenton> There is a QNX-like system called VSTA.  I don't have
  Kenton> references on hand, but it is GPL'd.

Available on ftp.cygnus.com somewhere under /pub/embedded.

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Christopher Brow » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00




>You _could_ do a compressed filesystem floppy with 2.0.X, but
>it's need gobs of memory for the ramdisk.  No good if you're on
>a 4 meg system.

The QNX system has the same problem; it compresses everything, and
thus expects to find sufficient RAM to uncompress it into...
--

take you today?  A: Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus *is...


 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Sam Trenhol » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00


Quote:>QNX has an excellent single floppy demo[...]

>My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

Well, maybe not Netscape on a single floppy, but there is DLX:

        http://olymp.wu-wien.ac.at/usr/h93/h9301726/dlx.html

Which has an amazingly functional Linux system on a single floppy.

- Sam

--

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Andrew Cos » Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:00:00





>>You _could_ do a compressed filesystem floppy with 2.0.X, but
>>it's need gobs of memory for the ramdisk.  No good if you're on
>>a 4 meg system.
>The QNX system has the same problem; it compresses everything, and
>thus expects to find sufficient RAM to uncompress it into...

AHA.  Though it ran nicely enough on my 8 meg machine.

Hmmm. (tm)

I think I'll get to work on that 1.0.9 "Lite" based thing.
We need ppp in the kernel (may as well compress the kernel,
disk space is our biggest priority) and a _good_ ppp script.

I'll try to get it all into 1200k: a further challenge.

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Dan Hildebra » Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:00:00






>>You _could_ do a compressed filesystem floppy with 2.0.X, but
>>it's need gobs of memory for the ramdisk.  No good if you're on
>>a 4 meg system.

>The QNX system has the same problem; it compresses everything, and
>thus expects to find sufficient RAM to uncompress it into...

True, the demodisk currently requires 6 Mbytes of RAM to run.  However,
we'll soon have it running in 4 Mbytes, which is a good runtime target for
all those old 386's out there gathering dust.  Not bad for a GUI, POSIX OS,
HTML 3.2 browser, TCP/IP, etc.  :-)
--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8
 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by root » Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:00:00



> Hey, you can't compare lynx to a graphical, HTML 3.2 web browser.  :-)
> Since the QNX demodisk is intended to introduce people to what QNX is all
> about, it contains a good amount of HTML to explain QNX.  If I dropped the
> HTML and a few of the demo apps (the text editor, file browser, television
> remote control, 3D vector animation, etc), I think I could easily add
> filesystem support for dos, iso9660, smb, nfs, etc.  And still keep the GUI
> and fit on 1 disk.  :-)

What is QNX targeted at, from the web page it looks like embedded
systems.

Quote:> >Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
> >out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.
> How much of Linux do you lose when you run ELKS?

HURD might be some competition but Linux as it is, doesn't try to
compete with your
system. Considering that I can array a dozen or so of the oldy moldy
386s I have and get
a couple of Mflops out of it with Linux I'm happy.

But if I wanted to shove a motherboard in a machine with an easy to use
GUI, no harddrive
and minimal ram and net connectivity I'd look closely at QNX. BTW do you
offer  diskless booting? Saves $35 bux and gets rid of floppy failures.
=)

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Dan Hildebra » Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:00:00





>> Hey, you can't compare lynx to a graphical, HTML 3.2 web browser.  :-)
>> Since the QNX demodisk is intended to introduce people to what QNX is all
>> about, it contains a good amount of HTML to explain QNX.  If I dropped the
>> HTML and a few of the demo apps (the text editor, file browser, television
>> remote control, 3D vector animation, etc), I think I could easily add
>> filesystem support for dos, iso9660, smb, nfs, etc.  And still keep the GUI
>> and fit on 1 disk.  :-)

>What is QNX targeted at, from the web page it looks like embedded
>systems.

Mostly.  QNX is in systems like medical instruments, point of sale,
financial transaction processing, process control, set top boxes for
internet access, consumer electronics, etc.  You don't see a lot of QNX on
the desktop, but a fully configured QNX system is essentially a UNIX-like
POSIX-cerified environment.  We differ in that QNX can also be scaled very
small, and that we also do fault tolerant distributed processing on a LAN.

Quote:>> >Then again Linux isn't made for this sort of work, not yet. Check
>> >out ELKS as it is aiming to make Linux this small.

>> How much of Linux do you lose when you run ELKS?

>HURD might be some competition but Linux as it is, doesn't try to
>compete with your
>system. Considering that I can array a dozen or so of the oldy moldy
>386s I have and get
>a couple of Mflops out of it with Linux I'm happy.

This is something that QNX is also good at.  As a microkernel OS, QNX is
built such that mulitple machines on a LAN merge into a single logical
machine.  Any process on any node can use any resource as if it was local.
This is jsut special services made for distributed access -- everything the
OS does is network transparent.  There are several papers on this at
http://www.qnx.com if you're interested.

Quote:>But if I wanted to shove a motherboard in a machine with an easy to use
>GUI, no harddrive
>and minimal ram and net connectivity I'd look closely at QNX. BTW do you
>offer  diskless booting? Saves $35 bux and gets rid of floppy failures.

But of course. :-)
--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8
 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by david parso » Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:00:00






>>> QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

>>> "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
>>> an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
>>> TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

>>> My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

>>> Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html

>>I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
>>defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
>>windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
>>suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
>>fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
>>and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
>>1 disk wonder :-)

>Hey, you can't compare lynx to a graphical, HTML 3.2 web browser.  :-)

   Yes, but that's application land.

   If you're using your gui and browser as a selling point for QNX, I
   can see the point of it (though these days I don't see that sort of
   bundling working for anyone except Microsoft), but it doesn't say
   anything about the operating system.  (What it does say is that X is
   bloated, but, shoot, is there anyone in the computer-using world that
   doesn't already know that?)

   I'd suspect that, sizewise, the kernel you put on that disk and the
   kernels I put on my (uncompressed recovery floppies) are about the
   same size. (I don't know, of course, but my recovery floppy kernel
   is a shade under 400k[1], and it supports:
        the obligatory two load formats for Linux/x86 (a.out and elf)
        floppy drives
        ide drives
        ide cd-roms
        ramdisks (big surprise, eh? ;-)
        scsi disks
        scsi cd-roms
        advansys, adaptec 1542, buslogic, and ncr8xx controllers
        ext2, proc, iso9660 filesystems)

   The kernel and the necessary a.out runtime library eat 850k of the
   approximately 1380k I can fit onto a repair floppy. If I used
   compressed floppy images, I could probably fit about 1800k onto the
   floppy after reserving space for the kernel.  450k of that is the
   library, and I'd need another 1400k for a vga X server.  Lesse, that
   would leave me approximately -50k to fit a web server[2], browser,
   gui, 200k of html documents, and the necessary scaffolding to support
   all of it.

   Make no mistake, that's a pretty spiffy demo you've got there.  But I
   don't even notice the operating system because I'm too busy drooling
   over the captive gui.

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ I might be able to do it using MGR, but there are no
                  \/                           modern web browsers for MGR.

   [1: 2.0.28; the 1.2.13 version is about 100k less :-(]
   [2: even if I used thttpd (~60k), I'd still have trouble fitting it in.]

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Andrew Cos » Sun, 14 Sep 1997 04:00:00


On 13 Sep 1997 10:59:46 -0700,


>   I'd suspect that, sizewise, the kernel you put on that disk and the
>   kernels I put on my (uncompressed recovery floppies) are about the
>   same size. (I don't know, of course, but my recovery floppy kernel
>   is a shade under 400k[1], and it supports:
>    the obligatory two load formats for Linux/x86 (a.out and elf)
>    floppy drives
>    ide drives
>    ide cd-roms
>    ramdisks (big surprise, eh? ;-)
>    scsi disks
>    scsi cd-roms
>    advansys, adaptec 1542, buslogic, and ncr8xx controllers
>    ext2, proc, iso9660 filesystems)
>   The kernel and the necessary a.out runtime library eat 850k of the
>   approximately 1380k I can fit onto a repair floppy. If I used
>   compressed floppy images, I could probably fit about 1800k onto the
>   floppy after reserving space for the kernel.  450k of that is the
>   library, and I'd need another 1400k for a vga X server.  Lesse, that
>   would leave me approximately -50k to fit a web server[2], browser,
>   gui, 200k of html documents, and the necessary scaffolding to support
>   all of it.
>   Make no mistake, that's a pretty spiffy demo you've got there.  But I
>   don't even notice the operating system because I'm too busy drooling
>   over the captive gui.

Yes indeed.  It's very interesting.

Quote:>                 ____
>   david parsons \bi/ I might be able to do it using MGR, but there are no
>                  \/                           modern web browsers for MGR.
>   [1: 2.0.28; the 1.2.13 version is about 100k less :-(]
>   [2: even if I used thttpd (~60k), I'd still have trouble fitting it in.]

Kernel size can be shaved way down below 400k.  First, you don't need any
HD drivers.  You need no SCSI.  Only one load format (a.out preferably).
Remember, you're loading from floppy and running from ram.  I've a 1.2.13
that's only 240k big, and it has HD and ethernet compiled in.  You can easily
squeeze 1.0.9 to under 200k.

Use libc-4.6.27 "lite" if possible.  Compile everything with -O2 -s -N, and
strip them after (you can sometimes gain a 1k block by removing that 4 bytes
-s leaves).  The shell - an old "sh" that's under 100k.  lynx-2.2.  And so on.

Also, using the minix filesystem on the floppy will gain you a few blocks as
well.

I'm still in the thinking-about-it stage myself, but I think I'll pull out
/dev/loop soon and have a go...

I'm leaving out the html server, by the way.  And it'll be text based.
As I see it, the toughest part will be writing a droolproof ppp dialup
script.  I've written a nearly droolproof ppp setup script, though, so
maybe.

 
 
 

Linux Hackers up to Matching the QNX Internet Challenge?

Post by Dan Hildebra » Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:00:00








>>>> QNX has an excellent single floppy demo that asks the question:

>>>> "How did we put a POSIX realtime OS, a full windowing system,
>>>> an HTML 3.2 browser, an embedded web server, an Internet dialer,
>>>> TCP/IP, and more on a SINGLE 1.44M floppy?"

>>>> My question is -- can this be done with Linux?

>>>> Check out the cool QNX demo at http://www.qnx.com/iat/how.html

>>>I've actually been hacking at this for a while, and I've admitted
>>>defeat. The best I managed was 2 floppies, and I couldn't get the
>>>windowing system or web server on that. However, I did get an nfs
>>>suite, internet dialup, a text-based browser (lynx) and some disk
>>>fixit tools. Plus it could read dos, vfat, iso9660, joliet, smbfs
>>>and ext2 partitions, so on balance I think it's better than QNX's
>>>1 disk wonder :-)

>>Hey, you can't compare lynx to a graphical, HTML 3.2 web browser.  :-)

>   Yes, but that's application land.

>   If you're using your gui and browser as a selling point for QNX, I
>   can see the point of it (though these days I don't see that sort of
>   bundling working for anyone except Microsoft),

For those customers of ours building set top boxes and other
internet-connected devices, it's a compelling advantage.  No one else has a
complete, embeddable browser.  WinCE contains only a small subset browser.
For a consumer appliance, that's too limiting.

Quote:> but it doesn't say
>   anything about the operating system.  (What it does say is that X is
>   bloated, but, shoot, is there anyone in the computer-using world that
>   doesn't already know that?)

:-)

Quote:>   I'd suspect that, sizewise, the kernel you put on that disk and the
>   kernels I put on my (uncompressed recovery floppies) are about the
>   same size. (I don't know, of course, but my recovery floppy kernel
>   is a shade under 400k[1], and it supports:

OS kernel on the QNX demodisk: 164K
   contains: microkernel, process manager, shared lib, boot manager and
             ramdisk manager

Quote:>    the obligatory two load formats for Linux/x86 (a.out and elf)
>    floppy drives

POSIX Filesystem manager: 80K
Floppy driver: 21K

Quote:>    ide drives

Fsys.edie (eide driver): 69K

Quote:>    ide cd-roms
>    ramdisks (big surprise, eh? ;-)
>    scsi disks
>    scsi cd-roms
>    advansys, adaptec 1542,

Adaptec 1542 driver: 59K

Quote:> buslogic, and ncr8xx controllers

NCR driver: 69K

Quote:>    ext2, proc,
> iso9660 filesystems)

Iso9660fsys: 27K

Quote:>   The kernel and the necessary a.out runtime library eat 850k of the

My sum of the above is 489K.  We also have a newer version of our OS
technology coming along (QNX/Neutrino) which will produce even smaller
numbers.  Those disk drivers above each contain a good chunk of redundant
code that will be combined into a DLL in the new stuff, and the kernel is
about half that size and provides greater functionality.

Quote:>   approximately 1380k I can fit onto a repair floppy. If I used
>   compressed floppy images, I could probably fit about 1800k onto the
>   floppy after reserving space for the kernel.  450k of that is the
>   library, and I'd need another 1400k for a vga X server.  Lesse, that
>   would leave me approximately -50k to fit a web server[2], browser,
>   gui, 200k of html documents, and the necessary scaffolding to support
>   all of it.

Yup. :-)

Quote:>   Make no mistake, that's a pretty spiffy demo you've got there.  But I
>   don't even notice the operating system because I'm too busy drooling
>   over the captive gui.

Photon does get a lot done in very little memory.  It has quite a different
architecture than any GUI I've seen.

Quote:>   david parsons \bi/ I might be able to do it using MGR, but there are no
>                  \/                           modern web browsers for MGR.

Can MGR even be grown into a fully desktop-comparable GUI?

Quote:>   [1: 2.0.28; the 1.2.13 version is about 100k less :-(]
>   [2: even if I used thttpd (~60k), I'd still have trouble fitting it in.]

:-)

--

http://www.qnx.com/~danh                    175 Terence Matthews
phone: +1 (613) 591-0931                    Kanata, Ontario, Canada
fax:   +1 (613) 591-3579                    K2M 1W8

 
 
 

1. Linux Today: PRNewswire: PC Week Labs Challenges Hackers To Crack Web Site

PRNewswire: PC Week Labs Challenges Hackers To Crack Web Site
 Sep 20, 1999, 14:18 UTC   (2 Talkbacks)  

"
In a major test of the security of Linux and Windows NT, PC Week Labs today threw down the gauntlet to Internet hackers, challenging them to break into a Web site, http://www.hackpcweek.com, to try to crack each or both of the operating systems. The site goes live today for a one-month trial.
"  

"The site contains near-identical systems, one running Windows NT with Internet Information Server (IIS) and the other running Red Hat Linux 6.0 with Apache as its web server. PC Week Labs created similar classified-ads engine applications running on each system. The challenge is to break into the site, mark up the home page and steal user information from the classified-ads engine."  

"Security is extremely important in the Internet environment and both Microsoft and the Linux community, via Red Hat, boast that their operating systems are secure," noted PC Week Labs Director John Taschek."  

Full text at: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/10215.html

Posted with: http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/mccluretroy/web2news.html

http:  linuxtoday com stories 10215 html web2news.pl

2. problem starting X in 2.0.30/33

3. Hacker Challenge

4. us-ca-sac Technical Resources Network Engineer (recruiter) la/rd

5. QNX and LILO [I can't boot QNX]

6. passwd problems - it wants root's password!

7. CHALLENGE: partial internet connectivity under linux where as win98 gives full connectivity on same machine

8. Setting up a firewall...

9. Shape Ups,Men's Shape Ups,Men's Skechers Shape Ups - new styles!

10. 2nd RSA Challenge Solved--Biggest distributed computing event ever on the internet

11. perl-hacker != c hacker.. Perl5a8+ binary wanted

12. DC/VA/MD: Internet "Hackers" / UNIX experts

13. Internet Disaster Policy and Hacker Attacks