Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Con-Tik » Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:00:00



No Thanks!!!
I wouldn't touch NT with a barge poll !

Quote:> What PC World says is true.  Linux is still too complex for non-computer
>   professionals.  Linux was not made to be used, it was made to be
>   a hobby for those interested in operating systems.

  Every day I think long and hard of all of the same about Windows.

Quote:> NT has many advantages over Linux, including far, far greater
>   ease-of-use(no contest here), more commercial software support,
>   faster graphics, better support for multi-threading, better log on
>   security, and a more reliable file system.

 Windows security -(hahahaha) please - a 5y old can brake into windows
 A more reliable file system - I really believe that after scandisk wiped 400mb of
my HDD.
 Besides, Linux doesn't need to do mundane tasks such as defraging - its done
automatically while you work.
 I don't need no log on.
 Windows Eazy?!?!!? (hahahah!!!)

Quote:> more commercial software support,

 More bugs too - still not buying it (pun intended).

Quote:> I installed my first NT system in less than
>   1 hour without reading a single page of documentation.

 It took me 8h for my win95 - why should NT always be so vastly different?
 Every experience with installation of any O/s is different.

Quote:> Also, I am still running with perfect stability on this same first installation
>   of NT over 22 months later.

 Linux can run with perfect stability 3 years later, without being rebooted or
crashing once. I didn't hear you say it never crashed once & was never rebooted.
 Is running a computer without reinstalling windows for 2years an achievement now -
wow! - I lasted 3 months once.

Quote:> Also, consider the fact that Linux is given away, but Microsoft charges
>   money for NT.  At first, this sounds like a big advantage for Linux.

 Firstly, the better types of Linux are Not being given away. Secondary, Ms charges
alot for NT.
 SuSE Linux, O/s2, BeOs & Mac O/s all come with an office suite, & a pile of other
bits & pieces of software, NT in here?

Quote:>   However, do you know of anything in the Real World that is worth
>     having that is given away?

 Yes = Netscape Communicator.
 Yes = Sunlight.
 Yes = freeware software.
 Funny argument for a MS person.
 Then why did MS resort to giving their rickety browser & D.U.N. away free?

Quote:>  In the long term, you will see that Linux is far more expensive than
>   NT, unless you just enjoy reading pages and pages of documentation
>   just to get a simple thing like a dial-up connection to your ISP working.

 But I like reading documentation. At least Linux has any documentation - unlike
the puny manual that comes with windows.
 Have you ever tried to connect Mac os 8 to the internet? - now that's hard.

Quote:> Another possibility is to put Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on
>   your next computer.

 I was looking for Viable alternatives only.

Quote:> If you use Linux instead of NT,
>   you will pay with your time and trouble instead of with money.  In
>   the long term, you will see that Linux is far more expensive than
>   NT

 Time & trouble !?
Now windows - that's what I call time & trouble!

Quote:> Let me know if you have any questions about Windows NT.

 Yes, how do you avoid it & convince others not to use it?
- - -
 The problem for NT is that NT 5.0 is a huge rewrite of code. If I want to stick
with NT - I will be having something just as unstable as windows in the future.
 Besides, there is not likely to be a Windows version after v6.0 (win98 is v5.0) of
it. Everyone knows NT will replace windows within 5 years.
 A real reason for getting Linux is that it is not from Microsoft.
 Unlike 95% of the population, I think I know what MS really intends for the future
- complete control of every electronic device & banking transaction in the world.
(please note this is my opinion only, not intended as being stated as fact)
 Our choice now.
-
 Thanks for your input. (The Linux crowd will find it highly amusing - that is why
I have removed your name & email address).
bye


> Another possibility is to put Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on
> your next computer.  NT would give you the same level of stability
> you would get from Linux and greater stability than OS/2.
> NT has many advantages over Linux, including far, far greater
> ease-of-use(no contest here), more commercial software support,
> faster graphics, better support for multi-threading, better log on
> security, and a more reliable file system.

> What PC World says is true.  Linux is still too complex for non-computer
> professionals.  Linux was not made to be used, it was made to be
> a hobby for those interested in operating systems.  Although Linux
> has started to move into the business world, it still requires its users
> to understand the operating system at a far lower level than with
> Windows NT.  For example, I installed my first NT system in less than
> 1 hour without reading a single page of documentation.  This included
> setting up Dial-up Networking to my Internet Service Provider, which
> is a major problem on Linux installations.  I don't think anyone could
> install their first Linux machine in anything close to 1 hour without
> spending numerous hours reading Linux documentation and FAQs.
> Also, I am still running with perfect stability on this same first installation
> of NT over 22 months later.

> Also, consider the fact that Linux is given away, but Microsoft charges
> money for NT.  At first, this sounds like a big advantage for Linux.
> However, do you know of anything in the Real World that is worth
> having that is given away?  I don't.  If you use Linux instead of NT,
> you will pay with your time and trouble instead of with money.  In
> the long term, you will see that Linux is far more expensive than
> NT, unless you just enjoy reading pages and pages of documentation
> just to get a simple thing like a dial-up connection to your ISP working.

> Let me know if you have any questions about Windows NT.

--
  ---------------
    -Con Tiki-
  --------------
-"The truth will overcome all who stand in its way"-
-"And the same people once did say the world was flat"-
-"The proof is out there"-
-"Think differently"-
-"Start the Revolution"-
  -------------
  The Real Pacific History at:
http:/www.geocities.com/athens/troy/4059/
  -------------
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You are working far to hard.
  -------------
 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Christopher Smit » Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:00:00



Quote:>No Thanks!!!
>I wouldn't touch NT with a barge poll !
>> NT has many advantages over Linux, including far, far greater
>>   ease-of-use(no contest here), more commercial software support,
>>   faster graphics, better support for multi-threading, better log on
>>   security, and a more reliable file system.

> Windows security -(hahahaha) please - a 5y old can brake into windows

A 5 year old can probably spell "break" as well - why don't you give me some
examples of 5 year olds breaking into NT boxes :).

Quote:> A more reliable file system - I really believe that after scandisk wiped
400mb of
>my HDD.

You expect me to take anything you say seriously when you obviously don't
even know the difference between Win9x and NT :).  Btw, I've lost a few
hundred Mb after fscking after a power cut too.

Quote:> Besides, Linux doesn't need to do mundane tasks such as defraging - its
done
>automatically while you work.

Really ?  Can you explain to me how ext2fs defrags itself without reading
the disk ?  (my machine has little to no disk activity after I have loaded
all my apps or the machine is idle - if its defragging while I work I'd
really like to know how).

Quote:> I don't need no log on.

You obviously don't need to use your computer then, either.

Quote:>> I installed my first NT system in less than
>>   1 hour without reading a single page of documentation.

> It took me 8h for my win95 - why should NT always be so vastly different?

See the line below.

Quote:> Every experience with installation of any O/s is different.

I believe you just answered your own question.

Quote:>> Also, I am still running with perfect stability on this same first
installation
>>   of NT over 22 months later.

> Linux can run with perfect stability 3 years later, without being rebooted
or
>crashing once.

I've heard of a few Linux boxes staying up that long, yes.  Of course I've
also heard of a few NT, Novel and OS/2 boxes staying up that long - none of
them have a particularly heavy load however.

Quote:>I didn't hear you say it never crashed once & was never rebooted.
> Is running a computer without reinstalling windows for 2years an
achievement now -
>wow! - I lasted 3 months once.

>> Also, consider the fact that Linux is given away, but Microsoft charges
>>   money for NT.  At first, this sounds like a big advantage for Linux.

> Firstly, the better types of Linux are Not being given away. Secondary, Ms
charges
>alot for NT.

All versions of Linux I've ever seen have been given away, even though there
were also commercial "versions".

Quote:> SuSE Linux, O/s2, BeOs & Mac O/s all come with an office suite, & a pile
of other
>bits & pieces of software, NT in here?

*cough*.  Can you point me to the office suites that come with BeOS, OS/2
and MacOS ?  Because I'm damn sure I can't see them.

Quote:>> Another possibility is to put Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on
>>   your next computer.

> I was looking for Viable alternatives only.

You've already proven you haven't got or used NT - why *shouldn't* it be a
viable alternative ?

Quote:>> If you use Linux instead of NT,
>>   you will pay with your time and trouble instead of with money.  In
>>   the long term, you will see that Linux is far more expensive than
>>   NT

> Time & trouble !?
>Now windows - that's what I call time & trouble!

>> Let me know if you have any questions about Windows NT.

> Yes, how do you avoid it & convince others not to use it?

Avoid it ?  Easy don't use it.
Convince others not to use it ?  Prove to them something else can do a
better job.

 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Joel Ston » Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:00:00



> Really ?  Can you explain to me how ext2fs defrags itself without reading
> the disk ?  (my machine has little to no disk activity after I have loaded
> all my apps or the machine is idle - if its defragging while I work I'd
> really like to know how).

It's entirely likely that "christopher smith"  is being deliberately obtuse -
don't bother trying to explain how a modern file system efficiently allocates
storage space and uses indirection for larger files - he will simply wear you
out with inane questions and whatever explanation you give will simply
disappear into a black hole and never register with him.

Save yourself some grief and don't take him seriously - read his posts, have a
good laugh, and move on.

js

 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Dave Finto » Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:00:00



> > Windows security -(hahahaha) please - a 5y old can brake into windows

> A 5 year old can probably spell "break" as well - why don't you give me some
> examples of 5 year olds breaking into NT boxes :).

NT security is monitored by a select few individuals within a corporation.
Linux security is monitored by a world-wide force of developers who actually
fix the problems that surface in short order (take a look at the F00F security
issue and the DOS issues that surfaced earlier this year).

Quote:> > A more reliable file system - I really believe that after scandisk wiped
> 400mb of
> >my HDD.

> You expect me to take anything you say seriously when you obviously don't
> even know the difference between Win9x and NT :).  Btw, I've lost a few
> hundred Mb after fscking after a power cut too.

Scandisk can't do a dang thing without having to have its hand held throughout
the entire process.  I've had *much* better experience dealing with fsck (much
more automatic and reliable).

Quote:> > Besides, Linux doesn't need to do mundane tasks such as defraging - its
> done
> >automatically while you work.

> Really ?  Can you explain to me how ext2fs defrags itself without reading
> the disk ?  (my machine has little to no disk activity after I have loaded
> all my apps or the machine is idle - if its defragging while I work I'd
> really like to know how).

ext2fs defrags itself by keeping track of what available spaces are left in the
HD and puts things only where it would fit best.  In other words, an external
defrag program isn't necessary.  The file system defrags itself  when your
machine is copying files or writing new ones.

Quote:> > I don't need no log on.

> You obviously don't need to use your computer then, either.

He means you can run services on the computer without someone actually being
logged on the computer (i.e. cron jobs, daemons, and the like).  This is
necessary for DNS servers, web servers, dail-in servers, etc.  If you needed to
log onto NT to do something as blindingly mundane as file serving, I'd count
that as a flaw, not an advantage.  A good computer needs no human intervention
unless absolutely necessary.

Quote:> > Every experience with installation of any O/s is different.

> I believe you just answered your own question.

From what credible news sources say (and no I don't count ZDNet as a credible
news source either) NT and Linux installations are about equivalent in
difficulty.  If anything, Linux supports more hardware and is reportedly easier
to install in many cases.

Quote:> >> Also, I am still running with perfect stability on this same first
> installation
> >>   of NT over 22 months later.

> > Linux can run with perfect stability 3 years later, without being rebooted
> or
> >crashing once.

> I've heard of a few Linux boxes staying up that long, yes.  Of course I've
> also heard of a few NT, Novel and OS/2 boxes staying up that long - none of
> them have a particularly heavy load however.

My record is one and a half months without a single reboot.  In this time I
installed several GUI's (including Qt and KDE), the GIMP, upgraded serveral
basic services (including networking), and kernel module tweaking.  And I used
this computer for programming, browsing, fractal rendering, and so on all the
while.  Fairly heavy load, I'd say.

Quote:

> >I didn't hear you say it never crashed once & was never rebooted.
> > Is running a computer without reinstalling windows for 2years an
> achievement now -
> >wow! - I lasted 3 months once.

> >> Also, consider the fact that Linux is given away, but Microsoft charges
> >>   money for NT.  At first, this sounds like a big advantage for Linux.

> > Firstly, the better types of Linux are Not being given away. Secondary, Ms
> charges
> >alot for NT.

> All versions of Linux I've ever seen have been given away, even though there
> were also commercial "versions".

It works for Internet Explorer.  'Nuf said.

Quote:> > I was looking for Viable alternatives only.

> You've already proven you haven't got or used NT - why *shouldn't* it be a
> viable alternative ?

It is in certain respects, like if you have the money.  I don't so I go with
the solution that best fits my needs.

If I did have the money, would I buy NT?  I dunno.  If someone can point to me
something NT can do that Linux can't (and that something is relavent to me)
I'll buy a copy.  But I'm not about to jump up and grab one when MS feels like
releasing a new version.

Quote:> > Time & trouble !?
> >Now windows - that's what I call time & trouble!

> >> Let me know if you have any questions about Windows NT.

> > Yes, how do you avoid it & convince others not to use it?

> Avoid it ?  Easy don't use it.
> Convince others not to use it ?  Prove to them something else can do a
> better job.

I do convince others, with a rather high success rate.  All Linux in our house
(3 computers!).  More on the horizon.  And that's not counting people I've
talked to a few times (I once convinced a network administrator to try out
Linux over a dinner at Country Kitchen from 2 booths away... the next time I
talked to him he was *very* impressed with Linux).
 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Christopher Smit » Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:00:00




>> Really ?  Can you explain to me how ext2fs defrags itself without reading
>> the disk ?  (my machine has little to no disk activity after I have
loaded
>> all my apps or the machine is idle - if its defragging while I work I'd
>> really like to know how).

>It's entirely likely that "christopher smith"  is being deliberately
obtuse -
>don't bother trying to explain how a modern file system efficiently
allocates
>storage space and uses indirection for larger files - he will simply wear
you
>out with inane questions and whatever explanation you give will simply
>disappear into a black hole and never register with him.

I already know how modern filing systems do this Joel, so you won't have to
bother explaining.  It's a bit different from "defragging itself while you
work" however.

Quote:

>Save yourself some grief and don't take him seriously - read his posts,
have a
>good laugh, and move on.

Oh good - I hope you find my posts as amusing as I find yours - at least
then we're both happy.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:

>js

 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Christopher Smit » Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:00:00




>> > Windows security -(hahahaha) please - a 5y old can brake into windows

>> A 5 year old can probably spell "break" as well - why don't you give me
some
>> examples of 5 year olds breaking into NT boxes :).

>NT security is monitored by a select few individuals within a corporation.
>Linux security is monitored by a world-wide force of developers who
actually
>fix the problems that surface in short order (take a look at the F00F
security
>issue and the DOS issues that surfaced earlier this year).

This isn't offering me any examples of people breaking into NT boxes,
although it is giving a reason why the fix for any holes found might take a
few days as opposed to a few hours.

Quote:

>> > A more reliable file system - I really believe that after scandisk
wiped
>> 400mb of
>> >my HDD.

>> You expect me to take anything you say seriously when you obviously don't
>> even know the difference between Win9x and NT :).  Btw, I've lost a few
>> hundred Mb after fscking after a power cut too.

>Scandisk can't do a dang thing without having to have its hand held
throughout
>the entire process.

Since NT doesn't have or use scandisk, that's a bit irrelevant.

Quote:>I've had *much* better experience dealing with fsck (much
>more automatic and reliable).

NT's equivalent is chkdsk, I've not had a bad experience with it (yet).

Quote:

>> > Besides, Linux doesn't need to do mundane tasks such as defraging - its
>> done
>> >automatically while you work.

>> Really ?  Can you explain to me how ext2fs defrags itself without reading
>> the disk ?  (my machine has little to no disk activity after I have
loaded
>> all my apps or the machine is idle - if its defragging while I work I'd
>> really like to know how).

>ext2fs defrags itself by keeping track of what available spaces are left in
the
>HD and puts things only where it would fit best.

Just like NTFS.

Quote:>In other words, an external
>defrag program isn't necessary.

Depends - eventually you're going to get fragmentation as the disk fills up,
once the data is fragmented, the FS won't do anything to help it (short of
moving the file off the disk then back on).

Quote:>The file system defrags itself  when your
>machine is copying files or writing new ones.

Only if the space is there.  A full disk can become fragmented.  If you are
constantly deleting files then the chances of fragmentation are low, however
most people are constantly adding files more than deleting them.
On another note, I've nevre noticed any serious performance degradation on
NTFS nor ext2 due to fragmentation.

Quote:

>> > I don't need no log on.

>> You obviously don't need to use your computer then, either.

>He means you can run services on the computer without someone actually
being
>logged on the computer (i.e. cron jobs, daemons, and the like).

And on NT, you can.

Quote:>This is
>necessary for DNS servers, web servers, dail-in servers, etc.  If you
needed to
>log onto NT to do something as blindingly mundane as file serving, I'd
count
>that as a flaw, not an advantage.

You don't (hell, you don't even have to do that on *Win9x*).

Quote:>A good computer needs no human intervention
>unless absolutely necessary.

>> > Every experience with installation of any O/s is different.

>> I believe you just answered your own question.

>From what credible news sources say (and no I don't count ZDNet as a
credible
>news source either) NT and Linux installations are about equivalent in
>difficulty.  If anything, Linux supports more hardware and is reportedly
easier
>to install in many cases.

From my personal experience RedHat is on par with NT, with slackware and
Suse a bit worse.  It's really much of a muchness if you know what you're
doing, and they're *all* too complex IMHO if you don't know what you're
doing.

Quote:

>> >> Also, I am still running with perfect stability on this same first
>> installation
>> >>   of NT over 22 months later.

>> > Linux can run with perfect stability 3 years later, without being
rebooted
>> or
>> >crashing once.

>> I've heard of a few Linux boxes staying up that long, yes.  Of course
I've
>> also heard of a few NT, Novel and OS/2 boxes staying up that long - none
of
>> them have a particularly heavy load however.

>My record is one and a half months without a single reboot.  In this time I
>installed several GUI's (including Qt and KDE), the GIMP, upgraded serveral
>basic services (including networking), and kernel module tweaking.  And I
used
>this computer for programming, browsing, fractal rendering, and so on all
the
>while.  Fairly heavy load, I'd say.

Actually I'd call that a reasonable load (not that my example is going to be
any better).
My personal best with NT is about 3 months (90-something days IIRC), during
this time I was running an FTP server, file & print sharing, writing simple
programs (C++ and Ada) for uni work, playing Quake, burning CDs, browsing
the web, newsreading, telnet, fillding with 3ds Max, writing assignments etc
in Word, file management, RC5 running all the time etc etc.  The reboot at
the "end" was planned & necessary due to a hardware upgrade.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:>> > I was looking for Viable alternatives only.

>> You've already proven you haven't got or used NT - why *shouldn't* it be
a
>> viable alternative ?

>It is in certain respects, like if you have the money.  I don't so I go
with
>the solution that best fits my needs.

>If I did have the money, would I buy NT?  I dunno.  If someone can point to
me
>something NT can do that Linux can't (and that something is relavent to me)
>I'll buy a copy.  But I'm not about to jump up and grab one when MS feels
like
>releasing a new version.

Since I don't know what you want to do, nor do on a regular basis I couldn't
say.  Since you seem to be happy using Linux then I don't feel I should be
trying to make you switch platforms.  Use the tool that does what you want
to do best, preferably after giving your other options a go first.  I tried
Linux and preferred NT, so I went back - Linux still has a home on some of
my other machines however, since it is the best option for them.

Quote:

>> Avoid it ?  Easy don't use it.
>> Convince others not to use it ?  Prove to them something else can do a
>> better job.

>I do convince others, with a rather high success rate.  All Linux in our
house
>(3 computers!).  More on the horizon.  And that's not counting people I've
>talked to a few times (I once convinced a network administrator to try out
>Linux over a dinner at Country Kitchen from 2 booths away... the next time
I
>talked to him he was *very* impressed with Linux).

If you can convince others with good reasons and they are honestly better
off, then good for you.  It's the evangelists and zealots who say Linux
should be everywhere doing everything, or is the best choice for everyone
that irritate me - although not as much as the people who say NT sucks
simply because it comes from MS and have no personal experience.

- Show quoted text -

 
 
 

Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc - NT4.0, no thanks!

Post by Mike Trett » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00



>*cough*.  Can you point me to the office suites that come with BeOS, OS/2
>and MacOS ?  Because I'm damn sure I can't see them.

OS/2 comes with IBM Works-roughly the equivalent of MS Works in
functionality.  Now, whether you would consider that to be a _good_ office
suite is up for interpretation, but it certainly does do all the basic
office type stuff.  You are certainly better off with StarOffice or
SmartSuite, but it's there.

Remaining inanity snipped...

--
===========
Mike Trettel    trettel (Shift 2) fred (dinky little round thing) net
   Skep-Ti-Cult # 157-894589-983             ICQ # 15339850

I don't buy from spammers.  No exceptions.  Fix the reply line to mail me.

 
 
 

1. Help with new o/s - Linux or o/s2 for new pc

 Ok Unix fans.
I am sick to death of Win95 crashing every 2hours. I think that on my
next computer I will get either Linux or O/S 2 Warp.
I live in New Zealand - Microsoft heaven. Because of NZ's small size, I
don't know of any place that sells Linux.
Is what Pc World Nz says true - that it is to hard for a normal person?
Could you tell me how I would go about using Linux on a new Pc, & why I
should I get it over IBM O/s 2 warp?
thanks
bye
--
  ---------------
    -Con Tiki-
  --------------
-"The truth will overcome all who stand in its way"-
-"And the same people once did say the world was flat"-
-"The proof is out there"-
-"Think differently"-
-"Start the Revolution"-
  -------------
  The Real Pacific History at:
http:/www.geocities.com/athens/troy/4059/
  -------------
If you are not working with Netscape Communicator-
You are working far to hard.
  -------------

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